EPT1.4.2 Patch notes PTR - Page 113
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ComplexConf
Ireland161 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:07 Dalavita wrote: Feel free to open up the unit tester and make the following test. Have a ghost and a HT miles away from each other. Tell the HT to feedback the ghost, and tell the ghost to snipe the HT. When I did this simple test, the HT was always able to cover the small difference of range and feedback the ghost before the ghost could get off two snipes. Hell I struggled even getting off the first snipe due to the animation. You can EMP the HTs before they can feedback you on the other hand, but if they got 150+ energy, they're still going to feedback you. Edit: Interesting thing is that you need to hit the HT before it reaches the max range of the center of the EMP itself, otherwise it'll still get a feedback off while the EMP missile is traveling. Basically, you need to aim slightly ahead of where the HT is moving to hit it with the edge of your EMP if you want to avoid getting feedbacked. If you just hit the HT when it's within the center of your EMP the feedback will always hit. I think with the lower radius the feedback vs EMP battle will be even closer, maybe even tipped to the HTs favor. Did you shift queue the command? EDIT: Also, why not emp and let the ghosts attack slaughter the defenceless HT? -- This is probably a large part of the reason EMP doesn't 'do lasting damage' according to the guy a few posts upward. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:22 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Did you shift queue the command? EDIT: Also, why not emp and let the ghosts attack slaughter the defenceless HT? -- This is probably a large part of the reason EMP doesn't 'do lasting damage' according to the guy a few posts upward. I did shift queue, and I also mentioned EMP. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:07 Dalavita wrote: Feel free to open up the unit tester and make the following test. Have a ghost and a HT miles away from each other. Tell the HT to feedback the ghost, and tell the ghost to snipe the HT. When I did this simple test, the HT was always able to cover the small difference of range and feedback the ghost before the ghost could get off two snipes. Hell I struggled even getting off the first snipe due to the animation. You can EMP the HTs before they can feedback you on the other hand, but if they got 150+ energy, they're still going to feedback you. Edit: Interesting thing is that you need to hit the HT before it reaches the max range of the center of the EMP itself, otherwise it'll still get a feedback off while the EMP missile is traveling. Basically, you need to aim slightly ahead of where the HT is moving to hit it with the edge of your EMP if you want to avoid getting feedbacked. If you just hit the HT when it's within the center of your EMP the feedback will always hit. I think with the lower radius the feedback vs EMP battle will be even closer, maybe even tipped to the HTs favor. This is true in the single event of one HT moving towards one Ghost on an open field with full vision. In practice, the Ghost doesn't even need to be in front of the army, so most Terrans just stim 1-2 Marauders and kill the HT, while pulling their Ghosts back. In a situation where the HT isn't moving towards the Ghost by itself, Snipe will win every time. It will actually win anyway if the Terran does the smart thing and denies Protoss vision by killing observers. Ghosts have a sight range equal to the range of their abilities after all. This is all theorycraft anyway. In actual games we see Ghosts pretty much win every time. | ||
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Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:12 DrSuit wrote: why the hell should terran and protoss have to make archs, stutterstep and micro like gods to defeat a deathball but when protoss gets their army emped cause they don't spread stuff/use warpprisms they wine about it instead of fixing it! Units clump when you move them naturally, its part of the game engine. I agree to an extent that Protoss should practice spreading out their archons, templar and sentries a little more but the problem is that EMP is long range, instant and be cast from a unit that has cloak vs units that cant do anything about it. it's not the same as TvZ where the Terran would push his way into position and spread his/her marines for upcoming banelings/fungals or while the banelings are rolling in simply because marines are small, fast while stimmed, CHEAP and easily replenished so not always game ending. Comparing to the protoss victims of EMP; Archons, templar, sentries and such are VERY expensive and HARD to replenish. templar and sentries are SLOW to spread, Archons who are supposed to be the damage sponge of the protoss army is also reduced to a piece of wet tissue after EMP because all of his health is in his shields. All of these units are very gas heavy. for your micro argument I disagree. Stutterstep micro is not hard at all ( A click, right click, a-click, right click etc.), the Units make the archs for you if you engage in a good position. You don't have to "stutterstep" like a god because after EMPing the templar, sentries and archons you can literally roll over the toss death ball by stim and A-moving, no storms or FF or archons = super cost effective Bio maybe we'll see more Warp prisms as a means to protect caster units but is having to control the prism, the units inside while simultaneously keeping it out of harms way and controlling you army in the engagement really an equal test of skill vs a terran who shoots EMP, stims and A-moves? I'm very biased on this subject. even as Zerg. I'm not complaining that terran imba nerf nerf. only EMP. as a spectator PvT is currently my least favorite match-up to watch because I've seen too many games decided by Terran using EMP and rolling over tosses massive tier 3 army with M&M at stupid cost efficency ( 200 to 200 food each to 170 food vs 80 food in favor of terran) | ||
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RastaMonsta
304 Posts
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ITSbouli
Belgium4 Posts
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Iselian
United States56 Posts
I'm not sure how this will help the PvZ matchup, though I can see the metagame changing very, very quickly. Time to work on getting my upgrades sooner... | ||
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Lorch
Germany3702 Posts
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:08 ITSbouli wrote: Ok, now a update that EMP only removes energy, and not schields.. You do realize that if you were to do this, you would have to readjust the HP of the Protoss army. In a straight up battle where Protoss has their deathball and Terran has heavy mauraders with Vikings excluding ghost and HT’s for any casting damage, Protoss wipes the floor with Terran. In the early game, it’s different, but in the mid to late game where Protoss has their deathball up and running in a straight up battle you lose. I’ve tested it numerous times in the unit test map and with my buddy and it never comes out in Terran’s favor. This is even if you spend half your time kiting zealots. Unless, you drop a few EMP’s to help turn the tide or you miraculously catch the colossus out of position and you manage to snipe them off, but that’s pretty difficult to do if you have a decent player. Everyone protects those colossus (rightly so) as if their life dependent on it. Some sort of EMP is absolutely necessary in a battle. Now you might argue that it may not do as much damage, and I might buy that, but to entirely eliminate any affect on shields is way too much. | ||
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Aborash
65 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:07 Dalavita wrote: Feel free to open up the unit tester and make the following test. Have a ghost and a HT miles away from each other. Tell the HT to feedback the ghost, and tell the ghost to snipe the HT. When I did this simple test, the HT was always able to cover the small difference of range and feedback the ghost before the ghost could get off two snipes. Hell I struggled even getting off the first snipe due to the animation. You can EMP the HTs before they can feedback you on the other hand, but if they got 150+ energy, they're still going to feedback you. Edit: Interesting thing is that you need to hit the HT before it reaches the max range of the center of the EMP itself, otherwise it'll still get a feedback off while the EMP missile is traveling. Basically, you need to aim slightly ahead of where the HT is moving to hit it with the edge of your EMP if you want to avoid getting feedbacked. If you just hit the HT when it's within the center of your EMP the feedback will always hit. I think with the lower radius the feedback vs EMP battle will be even closer, maybe even tipped to the HTs favor. Now try to FB 5 ghost with cloak in a bioball, before they spam EMP like no tomorrow. And share the replay plz. | ||
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sc2brainstormer
United States7 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3702 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:40 sc2brainstormer wrote: you can snipe infesters tho and snipe pretty much any zerg unit Oh that's just a totally different ghost issue, don't worry they took care of that in hots, just fucking use the viper to pull the ghost at ya. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
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XerrolAvengerII
United States510 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:28 Aborash wrote: Now try to FB 5 ghost with cloak in a bioball, before they spam EMP like no tomorrow. And share the replay plz. I saw trump get smashed last night against a player who went zealot templar colossus into archons... the protoss player spread his units and was able to feedback the ghost killteam (killing 2 of the ghosts and forcing the rest back out of fear) with minimal emp damage. It relies on the situation... trying to balance something so skill dependant and something so close is extremely challenging... Feedback is superior to snipe because it only takes 1 to neutralise or even kill a target... emp is more valuable as an area disable, but to be honest, i like feedback more... i mean EMPs don't kill dropships full of units... feedbacks do! It's fair to say that in most situations the player with the best positioning will win... at high levels if one side is statistically stronger than the other, than blizzard makes small changes like reducing the EMP radius and improving incentive for getting upgrades on protoss units. | ||
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Lunat!c
122 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:48 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I saw trump get smashed last night against a player who went zealot templar colossus into archons... the protoss player spread his units and was able to feedback the ghost killteam (killing 2 of the ghosts and forcing the rest back out of fear) with minimal emp damage. It relies on the situation... trying to balance something so skill dependant and something so close is extremely challenging... Feedback is superior to snipe because it only takes 1 to neutralise or even kill a target... emp is more valuable as an area disable, but to be honest, i like feedback more... i mean EMPs don't kill dropships full of units... feedbacks do! Well, if you compare the HT to the ghost in terms of killing drop ships the HT is only better if the Terran is stupid enough to send a drop ship that has enough energy to be killed from a HT otherwise the HT can maybe get off one storm which is easily avoidable by a stim which one would do anyway/evnentually. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On November 02 2011 21:08 darkness wrote: Are you really that stupid? If it takes all shield of ground units (100 for an archon) and their energy, then this is GOOD DAMAGE, even guaranteed one. You also lower energy by 100. What else do you want??? Is this fair? EMP is: instant, 10 range, AoE (2 radius atm) Feedback is: instant, 9 range, TARGET ONLY Storm is: 20 damage per sec (80 for 4), 9 range, AoE (1.5 radius I think) It's not guaranteed storm will do 80 because average zerg or terran don't sit under it unless they're forced somehow (terrain/FF/etc). On the other hand, EMP does 100 AoE shield damage on any protoss unit instantly. That's good even itself without taking out energy. Moreover, how is protoss supposed to counter ghosts? Well, protoss just has to rely on terran not controlling a specific ghost whose range is, again, longer than a high templar. Are you really stupid? Because the point he is trying to make is that fungal and storm can completely wipe out an army. EMP is only going to do anything if you have enough army support with the ghosts. Not to mention archons need 4 emps to drain all their shields. Nerfing Terrans only AoE against toss is brutal, when toss now has more effective HT's and still has Colossus. If you EMP an army, you've weakened it. But if you miss, you get stormed to death. And no, you can never perfectly dodge a storm, especially when they have multiple ones spammed around you. So missing an EMP means you lose, missing a storm does not. User was warned for this post | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:26 Lorch wrote: Like this overall, I have always been a huge fan of double forge, that just makes it easier, I doubt that changing the radius by that bit will change tvp much, emp will still be able to do the 1k damage it does, all this does is promote splitting a little more (which gets ruined by path finding anyways) and give ht a slightly better change against ghost. I still think they should start by giving feedback and emp/snipe the same range to make it even. And I feel like EMP should just do doe so you can actually move out of it instead of getting fucked instantly without being able to do shit about it. If feedback, snipe and EMP were the same range, ghosts would never ever be able to hit a protoss players HTs if he was on guard. NEVER EVER EVER EVER. On November 02 2011 23:36 Toadvine wrote: This is true in the single event of one HT moving towards one Ghost on an open field with full vision. In practice, the Ghost doesn't even need to be in front of the army, so most Terrans just stim 1-2 Marauders and kill the HT, while pulling their Ghosts back. In a situation where the HT isn't moving towards the Ghost by itself, Snipe will win every time. It will actually win anyway if the Terran does the smart thing and denies Protoss vision by killing observers. Ghosts have a sight range equal to the range of their abilities after all. This is all theorycraft anyway. In actual games we see Ghosts pretty much win every time. First of all. The only reason you need your HT in front of your army is if the ghost is coming in to kill your HTs off or EMP them/the army before the battle. If this is the case, you know the ghost is coming because you A. Have observers, or your army get scanned upon when he has ghosts, you can react with a feedback before either EMP or Snipe can hit you. And it's not like you can't move forward and rape his ghosts with a couple of blink stalkers/colossi as well, to counter your marauder example. You losing your observer is not a terran advantage and not having vision of the ghosts, but a l2p issue on the protoss side. I agree that this is all theorycraft, and that we see "ghosts" win pretty much every time. As I explained, in my opinion it's simply because protoss players haven't adapted to ghost usage by defending their observers better, spreading units out and whatever else they need to pull to win. As a finish, I'd like to mention that ghosts are actually supposed to be strong against HTs. Just saying. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:48 Lorch wrote: Oh that's just a totally different ghost issue, don't worry they took care of that in hots, just fucking use the viper to pull the ghost at ya. Try it and watch them EMP/snipe your vipers too. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On November 03 2011 02:32 Whitewing wrote: Try it and watch them EMP/snipe your vipers too. Obviously you're not spreading your vipers properly. | ||
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