|
On November 02 2011 10:52 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 10:10 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 08:33 Dalavita wrote:On November 02 2011 08:30 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 06:31 Mehukannu wrote:On November 02 2011 06:17 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:49 Mehukannu wrote:On November 02 2011 05:37 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:26 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 05:21 oogieogie wrote:
[quote]
Are you really saying that infestors,tanks,and thors are lategame units? Also ghosts do seem to be too good vs protoss w/emp and zerg with emp/snipe. I mean what do you even need snipe for? If the zerg has broodlords you can go vikings, and if they have ultras you can go marauders which is easily better then ghosts for them.
inbe4 infestors killing the vikings..they would kill the ghosts too if you catch them, but with cloak + mass qued snipe it is just ridiculous. Well, I had to say something, since there are no terran tier 3 units... Broodlord + infestor combination is OP, like David Kim said in an interview. Then terrans used ghosts and now it's okay (but still imba imo). Let me explain vikings vs broodlord infestor: you spread your vikings perfect and with alot of luck you win the fight --> gratz, the zerg switched to ultralisk and you have useless vikings. Use them to kill overlords, ultras doesn't attack air, so you get map control, also you can land them near the mineral patches when there are no ground units around, and do some nice harras You do realize that zerg will not just make ultras? Trust me, there is going to be lings/blings and infestors with the ultras and infestors are going to eat vikings alive with both fungal and infested marines. <_< Are we talking about some kind of infinite vespene scenario in which you are able to switch from broodlords/infestors, to ultras/infestors/blings? Apparently we are talking about a scenario where zerg just making ultras after forcing terran to make vikings against infestor /broodlords combo, so yes, I think we are. But I have to say ultra/infestor/ling is pretty normal unit combo to make at late game and if zerg can afford to make broodlord/infestors which is more gas heavier than say ultra/infestor/ling/bling more than that zerg doesn't need to mass 10+ ultras either, about 6 is more than enough considering how big ultras are and having more than that will make ultras getting into the battle hard because of their huge size. Also, by the time zerg gets broodlord/infestor he will have 4 mining bases so he would be getting gas quite easily. So your point is that a Zerg with 4 bases can easy transition from broodlords/infestors to Ultra/infestors/blings? ok. a) 4 bases = 6*4= 24 drones only on gas + 16*4= 64 drones on mineral = 88 supply only on drones, if u add 4 queens =92 supply only to support economy. b) That lets you with a 108 supply army. c) 4 bases are harder to defend than 2 o 3, specially with infestors and broodlords cause they re slow. d) 6 Broodlords+6 infestors+6 ultras = 4200/3600 e) If you think 6 broodlords and 6 infestors and 6 ultras are some kind of unstoppable force, think again. Yes, we know about supply. All the races share that mechanic. What's your point? Critical Mass Your math is off. Zerg goes 4 base gas and 3-3.5 base minerals. That frees up 8-16 supply. You WON'T go Ultras AND Broodlords at the same time. And if you do, you aren't going to have 6 of them, more like 3. That frees up 12 supply if you cut 3 Broodlords or 18 supply if you cut 3 Ultralisks. You now have an additional 20-34 supply. And that's if you go for both Ultras AND Broodlords, which rarely happens. It's a TECH SWITCH, not a real unit combination. The additional 20-34 supply means 2-4 more Infestors and 30-60 cracklings and a few Banelings. A more realistic unit composition would be Ling/Bane/Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor. You get 4-6 Broodlords, ~8 Infestors, ~6 Corruptors (or more Infestors), and ~100 Zerglings and ~30 Banelings. The then overcommit to Vikings, you lose your Broodlords and Corruptors, and you pop 6 Ultralisks and more according to how many Zerglings and Banelings you lost. So you get like 8 Ultralisks, a crapton of Lings, a dozen Banelings, and kill Terran. This is what happened when you didn't have Ghosts. At that time, you were very likely to just die to the Broodlords. Infestors and Corruptors kill the Vikings, Broodlords force Tanks to unsiege, and Ling/Bane/Infestor kills EVERYTHING. Also, you can't just make a bunch of Marauders. If you do, a Muta switch will SLAUGHTER you. And this isn't an "infinite gas" scenario. It's a RESOURCE STOCKPILING SCENARIO, which is VERY common when you max out and stay maxed out because you're meticulously pushing across the map.
I just make the maths for 6 Broodlords and 6 infestors, and then the switch to 6 ultras, if you want to add 100 zerglings, u can rise the 4200/3600 to 6700/3600.
If you only mine in 3 bases, T outpass your mineral income with his mules.
Dual drops, hellion rush, etc, any of those easy to pull strategies have a great efect at low risk, and makes, reach 4-6 Broodlords, ~8 Infestors, ~6 Corruptors (or more Infestors), and ~100 Zerglings and ~30 Banelings hard, and give you enough time to get 3/3 upgrades, and proceed to easy win the game, without lost many units in the process.
Anyway, terran get nerfs in each patch, right? and they still winning easy most of the tournaments, right?
May be that means something...
|
On November 02 2011 09:12 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote:
I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations.
Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump).
If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it).
It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). Seriously, GTFO. Terran can put everything on 1 hotkey and move around? I'm assuming your accusing Terran of a 1 A race? You have to be freaking kidding me. I hope you don't play toss, because that is the last person I would expect to hear that come from lol. The reason why Terrans are so god damn good right now is because their micro is already light years ahead of Zergs and Protoss. You CAN literally 1 A with Toss and Zerg, have fun doing the same with Terran. EDIT: I would also like to add, do you have any idea how much more micro a Terran needs to pull off against a Zerg these days to trade efficiently?
Terrans are good because their race is the most explored (more people play Terran, so more Terran builds can pop up for people to experiment with).
The fact is, could you really say their micro is years ahead of Protoss and Zerg because they don't micro or it's pointless to micro?
Think about it. With Stim and Bio, you can kite and chase all day (denying enemy kiting). As a result, what reason is there for Protoss to try and kite with Stalkers in the same way Terran kites with Bio? None. They have Blink micro, but in an engagement with Colossi and HT right behind you, would you REALLY want to back up and leave your money units wide open? No! Early on against Zerg, good micro is great, but once Roach speed is done, you need Blink if you want to micro cost-efficiently against Roaches. What micro can Zealots do other than melee vs melee micro? (which is VERY cost efficient when performed) Sentries can only really Force Field and stutter step with less damage than Marines (and no Stim for the early or mid games to help Sentries kite all game long). Immortals, again, aren't fast so you can't really kite with them. Warp Prisms don't offer as much utility as Medivacs, so drop micro is VERY situational. Void Rays are microed in 3 Gate VR builds (and it's annoying to deal with). Phoenixes are a punishment to Terrans who don't micro and focus fire Colossi with Vikings. The Colossi is microed back, but not the the same efficiency of many a bio army, but a Colossus can't exactly outrun a bio ball with Stim since it's both 50% faster and has range. Should there be focus firing? Yes, and there is. Protoss is about focus firing, positioning your army, and splitting against EMPs and to get a wide arc. Terran is similar, but they also have very good kiting potential DURING the battle.
Then with Zerg, you micro the Lings to get the surround, that's it. Banelings are carefully controlled so they aren't wasted on Tanks and aren't wasted on an already-dead group of Marines. Infestors are also controlled with care so they don't die and to drop Fungal Growths. Broodlords are A-move (you can't really do much else with them). Ultralisks are A-move (again, what the hell are you going to do to micro Ultralisks other than to Transfuse them?). Mutalisks are microed to either Magic Box against Thors, or stack micro to kill Tanks/Turrets/weak spots in Terran base. Roaches use stutter step to chance, but can't use it to kite due to lack of range (and Concussive Shell). Hydralisks can kite ON CREEP, but if you have enough Hellions, the Hydralisks will die anyway. If Hydralisks had a speed upgrade (thank God they're getting one in HotS), then they would introduce another dimension of micro to Zerg armies that are made almost entirely of Hydralisks (like in Broodwar). Then they have blanket Baneling drops... So is there really a lot Zerg can do to micro?
I wouldn't say that Terran micro is lightyears ahead of the other two races. I WILL however say that they have the option to micro and have thoroughly taken advantage of it. But to a certain extent, that micro is required or else the squishy bio force dies. If a high level Terran doesn't micro, then they get run-over by Chargelots (A-move), Banelings (move command or A-move if ahead or against pure Marine), Mutalisks (stack micro to kill Tank, leaving Marines open to Banelings on A-move), Infestors, Colossi (A-move with occasional kiting), High Templar (Psi Storm), Broodlords (infinite Broodlings), Zergling surrounds (A-move or move command for surround into A-move), or maybe Ultralisks (if you can kite them and not lose units, why not right?). Maybe if Stalkers had a range upgrade, we could see some more Stalker micro. If Hydralisks were cheaper and got that speed upgrade, we could see the rise of Hydralisk-based armies with more micro and kiting (with less micro from Terran as a result since Marines wouldn't kite Hydras, but more positioning to have Tanks deal with the Hydras). The only unit Protoss has a chance of microing with is the Stalker. But with the Warp In mechanic, it's become more of a "overrun the enemy" mentality since you can make units right next to the enemy. If Warp Gates were removed, we wouldn't have to worry about ridiculous buffed +1 range Stalker all ins, which means Protoss would have more late game playability with Blink to help keep away from Stimmed Marauders and kiting the Bio army while they are unStimmed.
oGsMC dominated at the beginning of SC2 BECAUSE of his superior micro. He knew how to abuse the benefits of his race and he could micro better than other Protoss players out there. Even if he was at a build order loss in PvP, he could micro his way into a clean win. It's just that if you can get into the late game with him without falling drastically behind in economy (he early expands or cripples you with an all-in or semi all-in). The reason being that once you get to a certain point in the game, you can't really go with Stalker micro anymore because they have too many units and you can't really kite them anymore. Also, as you add more units, if you micro your Stalkers, you're basically leaving your other units (Sentries and Colossi) to die. Your Blink/Stalker kiting micro becomes reduced to Force Field control until your Sentries and Colossi die, in which case your back is against the wall and you HAVE to micro your Stalkers to try and be as cost efficient as possible so you don't just die to an immediate push to your base because those Stalkers and a few emergency warp ins will be all your army will consist of for the next 2-4 minutes.
|
Infestors will be so hard to deal with
|
On November 02 2011 11:49 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 09:12 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote:
I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations.
Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump).
If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it).
It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). Seriously, GTFO. Terran can put everything on 1 hotkey and move around? I'm assuming your accusing Terran of a 1 A race? You have to be freaking kidding me. I hope you don't play toss, because that is the last person I would expect to hear that come from lol. The reason why Terrans are so god damn good right now is because their micro is already light years ahead of Zergs and Protoss. You CAN literally 1 A with Toss and Zerg, have fun doing the same with Terran. EDIT: I would also like to add, do you have any idea how much more micro a Terran needs to pull off against a Zerg these days to trade efficiently? Terrans are good because their race is the most explored (more people play Terran, so more Terran builds can pop up for people to experiment with).
False
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/all/all
|
On November 02 2011 11:45 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 10:52 RyLai wrote:On November 02 2011 10:10 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 08:33 Dalavita wrote:On November 02 2011 08:30 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 06:31 Mehukannu wrote:On November 02 2011 06:17 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:49 Mehukannu wrote:On November 02 2011 05:37 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:26 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
Well, I had to say something, since there are no terran tier 3 units...
Broodlord + infestor combination is OP, like David Kim said in an interview. Then terrans used ghosts and now it's okay (but still imba imo).
Let me explain vikings vs broodlord infestor: you spread your vikings perfect and with alot of luck you win the fight --> gratz, the zerg switched to ultralisk and you have useless vikings. Use them to kill overlords, ultras doesn't attack air, so you get map control, also you can land them near the mineral patches when there are no ground units around, and do some nice harras You do realize that zerg will not just make ultras? Trust me, there is going to be lings/blings and infestors with the ultras and infestors are going to eat vikings alive with both fungal and infested marines. <_< Are we talking about some kind of infinite vespene scenario in which you are able to switch from broodlords/infestors, to ultras/infestors/blings? Apparently we are talking about a scenario where zerg just making ultras after forcing terran to make vikings against infestor /broodlords combo, so yes, I think we are. But I have to say ultra/infestor/ling is pretty normal unit combo to make at late game and if zerg can afford to make broodlord/infestors which is more gas heavier than say ultra/infestor/ling/bling more than that zerg doesn't need to mass 10+ ultras either, about 6 is more than enough considering how big ultras are and having more than that will make ultras getting into the battle hard because of their huge size. Also, by the time zerg gets broodlord/infestor he will have 4 mining bases so he would be getting gas quite easily. So your point is that a Zerg with 4 bases can easy transition from broodlords/infestors to Ultra/infestors/blings? ok. a) 4 bases = 6*4= 24 drones only on gas + 16*4= 64 drones on mineral = 88 supply only on drones, if u add 4 queens =92 supply only to support economy. b) That lets you with a 108 supply army. c) 4 bases are harder to defend than 2 o 3, specially with infestors and broodlords cause they re slow. d) 6 Broodlords+6 infestors+6 ultras = 4200/3600 e) If you think 6 broodlords and 6 infestors and 6 ultras are some kind of unstoppable force, think again. Yes, we know about supply. All the races share that mechanic. What's your point? Critical Mass Your math is off. Zerg goes 4 base gas and 3-3.5 base minerals. That frees up 8-16 supply. You WON'T go Ultras AND Broodlords at the same time. And if you do, you aren't going to have 6 of them, more like 3. That frees up 12 supply if you cut 3 Broodlords or 18 supply if you cut 3 Ultralisks. You now have an additional 20-34 supply. And that's if you go for both Ultras AND Broodlords, which rarely happens. It's a TECH SWITCH, not a real unit combination. The additional 20-34 supply means 2-4 more Infestors and 30-60 cracklings and a few Banelings. A more realistic unit composition would be Ling/Bane/Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor. You get 4-6 Broodlords, ~8 Infestors, ~6 Corruptors (or more Infestors), and ~100 Zerglings and ~30 Banelings. The then overcommit to Vikings, you lose your Broodlords and Corruptors, and you pop 6 Ultralisks and more according to how many Zerglings and Banelings you lost. So you get like 8 Ultralisks, a crapton of Lings, a dozen Banelings, and kill Terran. This is what happened when you didn't have Ghosts. At that time, you were very likely to just die to the Broodlords. Infestors and Corruptors kill the Vikings, Broodlords force Tanks to unsiege, and Ling/Bane/Infestor kills EVERYTHING. Also, you can't just make a bunch of Marauders. If you do, a Muta switch will SLAUGHTER you. And this isn't an "infinite gas" scenario. It's a RESOURCE STOCKPILING SCENARIO, which is VERY common when you max out and stay maxed out because you're meticulously pushing across the map. I just make the maths for 6 Broodlords and 6 infestors, and then the switch to 6 ultras, if you want to add 100 zerglings, u can rise the 4200/3600 to 6700/3600. If you only mine in 3 bases, T outpass your mineral income with his mules. Dual drops, hellion rush, etc, any of those easy to pull strategies have a great efect at low risk, and makes, reach 4-6 Broodlords, ~8 Infestors, ~6 Corruptors (or more Infestors), and ~100 Zerglings and ~30 Banelings hard, and give you enough time to get 3/3 upgrades, and proceed to easy win the game, without lost many units in the process. Anyway, terran get nerfs in each patch, right? and they still winning easy most of the tournaments, right? May be that means something...
You quote a 108 food army and say "if you think 6 Infestors 6 Broodlords and 6 Ultralisks is an unstoppable force, think again." You can fit in 36 supply of Lings and Banelings. But you should have more than that. If you add in 72 lings to 6 Infestors, 6 Broodlords, and 6 Ultralisks, yes, that is DAMN scary.
And who the hell cares if Terran has better MINERAL income once you're on 4 bases of GAS. Protoss and Zerg need GAS to make their scary units. They need GAS to make Infestors, Broodlords, Ultralisks, Mutalisks, and Banelings. Zerg needs GAS. Zerg needs GAS! Zerg needs GAS!!! Am I getting that point through to your head??? ZERG NEEDS GAS! That's what the 4th base is for. YOU GET A 4TH BASE FOR GAS! You can transfer Drones to increase mineral field longevity and make a few more Drones to add a little to your mineral income but THE 4TH BASE IS FOR GAS. If a Terran takes a new base, will they jump on the gas right away? No. They can just use the Minerals for Marines and a little bit of gas later for a little more tech.
And if it were EASY to get the Zerg deathball, Zerg would be winning games no problem. Gee... If I let a Protoss take 3 bases before Gateway or Forge and don't try to punish him for it, he'll get that 200/200 Deathball at 10-12 minutes in and I'll die. Damn. Who would've thought? If only Zerg ran into my base with some Zerglings, they could've slowed me down or even killed me if I was being too greedy. If a Terran overcommits to Hellions, you get Roaches and just kill him. If he goes for dual drops, make a few extra Queens to snipe Medivacs and a Spine Crawler for defense while you get a Spire. Do you think getting Warp Gate, Blink, and an Observer is a big investment to straight up kill a Terran who doesn't have a Tank or Bunkers defending his main on Xel'Naga Fortress? You always get Warp Gate, and Observers prevent you from dying to Banshees and allow you to look at your opponent's base. So you drop a Twilight Council and get Blink and you can suddenly pin Terran to his base. Do you think it was a big investment for Zergs to go for a Roach/Ling all in when they scout a 3 Gate expand? Do you think it's a big investment for Protoss to do a 3 Gate pressure expand?
If a player gets greedy and gets caught for it, they DESERVE to lose. There's no way around it. If a Terran doesn't wall off their natural and maybe drops a Bunker, they DESERVE to lose to a Zergling counterattack when they move out. If a Protoss doesn't wall off their natural and/or doesn't make a cannon, they DESERVE to lose their economy to a Zergling counterattack.
The idea of any good build is to get you to where you want as QUICKLY as possible as SAFELY as possible. There's a reason why the Infestor/Broodlord combination is deemed a "LATE GAME composition". It takes a LONG time to develop. It's SUPPOSED to be hard to make.
Seriously, do you THINK before you spew crap out of your mouth?!
|
On November 02 2011 11:55 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 11:49 RyLai wrote:On November 02 2011 09:12 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote:
I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations.
Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump).
If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it).
It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). Seriously, GTFO. Terran can put everything on 1 hotkey and move around? I'm assuming your accusing Terran of a 1 A race? You have to be freaking kidding me. I hope you don't play toss, because that is the last person I would expect to hear that come from lol. The reason why Terrans are so god damn good right now is because their micro is already light years ahead of Zergs and Protoss. You CAN literally 1 A with Toss and Zerg, have fun doing the same with Terran. EDIT: I would also like to add, do you have any idea how much more micro a Terran needs to pull off against a Zerg these days to trade efficiently? Terrans are good because their race is the most explored (more people play Terran, so more Terran builds can pop up for people to experiment with). False http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/all/all
To be honest, Korea's all that matters because Korean creates the metagame. And in FEA server, Terran IS most played. At the professional level, all you see is Terrans. Code S is dominated by Terrans. Terrans have tried and gone through more builds than Protoss and Zerg COMBINED. Clearly, Terrans are trying TONS of different things. You'll see Terrans come up with new things almost every tournament, and you don't see that from the other races. So, okay, maybe Terran isn't the majority around the world, but it IS the most explored. The fact that TvT is so far advanced is proof of that because since you're more likely to see TvT than any other mirror matchup, which means you either aren't making random draws, there is HORRIBLE luck in the draws that puts Terrans against each other all the time, or MOST of the players are playing Terran. It only makes sense that most top players are playing Terran.
|
On November 02 2011 06:25 Malpractice.248 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:37 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:26 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 05:21 oogieogie wrote:On November 02 2011 05:06 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 04:04 hunts wrote:On November 01 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:On November 01 2011 07:00 []Phase[] wrote:
as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/ this! It just doesn't feel right that 1 unit (the ghost) can hard counter all of zergs lategame units (infestors, brood lords, ultras) very effectively and efficiently. It almost feels like zergs are forced to finish off a T before they are able to start making some ghosts because once ghosts hit the field it almost feels like the Z is punished for making their best and most expensive units. It just doesn't feel right that 2 units (infestor + broodlord / ultra) can HARD counter all of terrans lategame units (tanks, thors) very effectively and efficiently. I watched satini vs a zerg. Satini was on 2 more bases, and he had a HUGE advantage. Satinii had to turtle and couldn't kill his opponent. Why? Because you can't attack against infestor + ultra / broodlord. Satinii had AMAZING ghost control, but just couldn't attack. He had to turtle for an hour, then the zerg dried out. THIS worries me VERY hard. Everyone seems to forget this... Are you really saying that infestors,tanks,and thors are lategame units? Also ghosts do seem to be too good vs protoss w/emp and zerg with emp/snipe. I mean what do you even need snipe for? If the zerg has broodlords you can go vikings, and if they have ultras you can go marauders which is easily better then ghosts for them. inbe4 infestors killing the vikings..they would kill the ghosts too if you catch them, but with cloak + mass qued snipe it is just ridiculous. Well, I had to say something, since there are no terran tier 3 units... Broodlord + infestor combination is OP, like David Kim said in an interview. Then terrans used ghosts and now it's okay (but still imba imo). Let me explain vikings vs broodlord infestor: you spread your vikings perfect and with alot of luck you win the fight --> gratz, the zerg switched to ultralisk and you have useless vikings. Use them to kill overlords, ultras doesn't attack air, so you get map control, also you can land them near the mineral patches when there are no ground units around, and do some nice harras Didnt know you couldnt EMP/snipe the infestors, and utilize a tier 3 unit, like the BC? I didnt know a yamato cannon 1 shots broodlords. With a longer range than fungal/NP/Broodlord. Not to mention, theyre still useful vs that ultra max you said they can do afterwards. And cost about the same? Furthermore, your ghosts, while cloaked, can snipe overseers. Which by the way, making say, 12 ultras, costs a lot, right? I think it does. Not to mention, vikings can snipe Overseers/overlords, and you can sacrifice them if you so desire. It does take 55s to make ultras. Lastly; Do you know what a seeker missile does to a pack of infestors? There are answers other than crying OP OP. Try testing stuff first; Z had to do it. P is starting to do it. T can too. Also: Your complaining that T has a weakness? Really? No worries, you can have the strongest early game, with no drawback to any kind of pressure, really. Then an amazing midgame. And the strongest late game. With tons of versatility in between.
First of all, battlecruisers are trash... second of all battlecruisers are trash... and third of all, how the hell did the raven get close enough to launch that seeker missile... (and forth of all, why is that terran wasting gas making ravens and teching all the neccesary upgrades to unlock 'usable' seeker missile, when he should be making ghosts instead? )
For the longest time, the prevalance of Terran allins durring the early and mid game is because Terran doesn't actually have a late game... its simply an extension of the mid game (with more bases and more units)... ghosts don't even count as a late game unit since they're essentially tier 1.5... It's fair to say that Terran has the worst tier 3 since it consists of level 3 weapons, Raven upgrades, and the Battle Cruiser which sucks...
unless Blizzard finds a way to restore some of the Battlecruiser's strength from previous patch nerfs, then you will never see the Battlecruiser used against Zerg or Protoss at any respectable level of play.
|
On November 02 2011 08:46 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 08:19 Dalavita wrote:
If protoss players can't keep their HTs up and running, then yes, they do fail at micro, and yes, they are worse at micro. Or do you consider EMP OP because the Protoss player has his entire fucking army, HTs, sentries and archons in one massive clump when a scan lands on his army in an end game situation instead of thinking to themselves, GEE, I wonder what's going to hit me right this instant. The amount of times I've seen that is actually sigh-worthy at this stage, and that's what I consider a failure at adapting. It's not even EMP or Snipe by itself that defeats the protosses. It's the fact that the terran scans their army or snipes their observers, and I haven't even seen protosses try to react or respond to either, and that is actually strategy, and not simple micro. The only thing I've seen is HT warp prism ferrying, with some success, but the amount of times I've seen it even used is in the single digits still.
Also, you should think of it this way. The terran player would have to EMP every single HT to prevent storms. If you EMP half of them and the battle engages, and the protoss has HTs coming in from behind his army storming the shit out of your army, your bio ball is still going to die, regardless of if you landed EMPs or not.
The impetus is on Protoss to adapt to ghost usage because that's whats giving them a hard time. They've done nothing so far.
The only reason Terrans started implementing ghosts heavily was because the lategame protoss armies and infestor broodlord combinations were beating the shit out of them. Pendulum swings back to the protosses now. Reading comprehension please. You appeared to be arguing that you didn't know if ghosts or HT have it easier because it's rare you see protoss even attempt to feedback ghosts and that protoss' have not "adapted." I was aruging the mere fact of feedbacking ghosts is simply micro. All that other stuff you are spewing about warp prisms and spreading units only reinforces the notion that in a micro battle of emp and feedback, emp wins. That is the whole reason protoss has to do these things of loading HT in prisms, spreading their units out, etc. Do you see Terrans loading ghosts into medivacs to avoid feedback? They don't because they don't need to. And yes you have to emp every HT, but you don't honestly believe that emp'ing every HT is at the same difficulty as feedbacking every ghost do you? Also I even specifically stated I don't think emp is OP when you consider the matchup as a whole. Again reading comprehension would be nice. So like I said above, the emp and feedback comparisons are completely stupid. Terrans who try to argue that protoss need to feedback ghosts to prevent emp have no idea what they are talking about. How current mechanics work, as a protoss player, you simply have to attempt (via warp prisms or spreading out or whatever) to get your storms off before they get emp'ed. Trying to feedback ghosts to prevent emp, when there are more than a few ghosts out on the field, is pointless.
I haven't said a word on what is EASIER to pull off, nor do i care, and frankly I can't even comment on whether it's possible to fight ghosts with HTs or not because the current top tier protoss players haven't even made an attempt at it. They've just turned over and died every damn time. Reading comprehension please...
If protoss players need to split their units up to cost efficiently fight terrans, then that's what they should be doing. It's been like that with terran against zerg since the betas, and against protoss as well. I don't care if terran has one unit that is more forgiving than both races alternatives in one aspect of the game. Im frankly happy that I need to split my marines and focus fire banelings to deal with a basic zergs a-clicking.
If you're speaking of EMP vs Feedback in an vaccuum, then yeah, I agree that even the nerfed EMP will be slightly better than Feedback, which is also why I mentioned that HTs were slightly weak as a caster. As far as actual games go, I don't see any imbalance overall. It's always been a matter of protoss players not l2ping. If you can't feedback normally, then figure out another way to do it. I think this paragraph answers your question specifically.
Also, I'll mention this again. EMP isn't what kills protoss. It's Observers being picked off and scans landing on the protoss army. It's more than a simple micro battle at those stages. It's simply the protoss not reacting.
On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote:
I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations.
Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump).
If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it).
It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar).
I'm fine with it personally. I've always enjoyed being forced to micro my units a lot harder in a marine tank vs ling baneling battle to keep even and not get gibbed by an a-clicker. Terran is the more micro intensive race in most situations, so I'm all right with ghosts being more forgiving than other casters.
On November 02 2011 09:32 Toadvine wrote:Seriously guys, we're concerned with the very top level of play here, not the ladder woes of a Diamond Terran.
Puhleeze. If we're actually concerned with the very top level, then ALL of the "HTs/infestors/broodlords are harder to pull off than ghosts" argument fall flat on its ass and it completely comes down to protosses being lazy.
|
ummm, why hasnt FG or Storm had a nerf along with it too? because unlike EMP, both of these spells actually kill units whereas EMP only temporarily damages them.
|
On November 02 2011 20:58 CptCutter wrote:
ummm, why hasnt FG or Storm had a nerf along with it too? because unlike EMP, both of these spells actually kill units whereas EMP only temporarily damages them.
Are you really that stupid? If it takes all shield of ground units (100 for an archon) and their energy, then this is GOOD DAMAGE, even guaranteed one. You also lower energy by 100. What else do you want???
Is this fair?
EMP is: instant, 10 range, AoE (2 radius atm)
Feedback is: instant, 9 range, TARGET ONLY
Storm is: 20 damage per sec (80 for 4), 9 range, AoE (1.5 radius I think)
It's not guaranteed storm will do 80 because average zerg or terran don't sit under it unless they're forced somehow (terrain/FF/etc). On the other hand, EMP does 100 AoE shield damage on any protoss unit instantly. That's good even itself without taking out energy.
Moreover, how is protoss supposed to counter ghosts? Well, protoss just has to rely on terran not controlling a specific ghost whose range is, again, longer than a high templar.
User was warned for this post
|
On November 02 2011 20:58 CptCutter wrote:
ummm, why hasnt FG or Storm had a nerf along with it too? because unlike EMP, both of these spells actually kill units whereas EMP only temporarily damages them.
I dunno, maybe because how storm has been radius 1.5 since beta?
|
On November 02 2011 20:58 CptCutter wrote:
ummm, why hasnt FG or Storm had a nerf along with it too? because unlike EMP, both of these spells actually kill units whereas EMP only temporarily damages them.
I guess broodlings are stronger than plague because broodlings can actually kill units.
|
On November 02 2011 12:43 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 11:55 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 11:49 RyLai wrote:On November 02 2011 09:12 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote:
I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations.
Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump).
If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it).
It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). Seriously, GTFO. Terran can put everything on 1 hotkey and move around? I'm assuming your accusing Terran of a 1 A race? You have to be freaking kidding me. I hope you don't play toss, because that is the last person I would expect to hear that come from lol. The reason why Terrans are so god damn good right now is because their micro is already light years ahead of Zergs and Protoss. You CAN literally 1 A with Toss and Zerg, have fun doing the same with Terran. EDIT: I would also like to add, do you have any idea how much more micro a Terran needs to pull off against a Zerg these days to trade efficiently? Terrans are good because their race is the most explored (more people play Terran, so more Terran builds can pop up for people to experiment with). False http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/all/all To be honest, Korea's all that matters because Korean creates the metagame. And in FEA server, Terran IS most played. At the professional level, all you see is Terrans. Code S is dominated by Terrans. Terrans have tried and gone through more builds than Protoss and Zerg COMBINED. Clearly, Terrans are trying TONS of different things. You'll see Terrans come up with new things almost every tournament, and you don't see that from the other races. So, okay, maybe Terran isn't the majority around the world, but it IS the most explored. The fact that TvT is so far advanced is proof of that because since you're more likely to see TvT than any other mirror matchup, which means you either aren't making random draws, there is HORRIBLE luck in the draws that puts Terrans against each other all the time, or MOST of the players are playing Terran. It only makes sense that most top players are playing Terran.
Not saying Terran is OP, but Korea was the region that favoured Protoss the MOST (in terms of being the most played race) from the time the game launched up until about 6 months ago  .
EDIT: You say Terran has tried the most builds, but that's clearly bullshit. Terran has added ghosts in TvP and MVP has added them in TvZ.Slayers came up with the hellion-marine-elevator push. The end. Terran still goes marine-tank + some situational units and MMM + some situational units (Vikings and Ghosts). The 1-1-1 push is also back vs Toss because nobody ever figured out how to hold it in the Beta either .
|
On November 02 2011 12:43 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 11:55 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 11:49 RyLai wrote:On November 02 2011 09:12 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote:
I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations.
Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump).
If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it).
It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). Seriously, GTFO. Terran can put everything on 1 hotkey and move around? I'm assuming your accusing Terran of a 1 A race? You have to be freaking kidding me. I hope you don't play toss, because that is the last person I would expect to hear that come from lol. The reason why Terrans are so god damn good right now is because their micro is already light years ahead of Zergs and Protoss. You CAN literally 1 A with Toss and Zerg, have fun doing the same with Terran. EDIT: I would also like to add, do you have any idea how much more micro a Terran needs to pull off against a Zerg these days to trade efficiently? Terrans are good because their race is the most explored (more people play Terran, so more Terran builds can pop up for people to experiment with). False http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/all/all To be honest, Korea's all that matters because Korean creates the metagame. And in FEA server, Terran IS most played. At the professional level, all you see is Terrans. Code S is dominated by Terrans. Terrans have tried and gone through more builds than Protoss and Zerg COMBINED. Clearly, Terrans are trying TONS of different things. You'll see Terrans come up with new things almost every tournament, and you don't see that from the other races. So, okay, maybe Terran isn't the majority around the world, but it IS the most explored. The fact that TvT is so far advanced is proof of that because since you're more likely to see TvT than any other mirror matchup, which means you either aren't making random draws, there is HORRIBLE luck in the draws that puts Terrans against each other all the time, or MOST of the players are playing Terran. It only makes sense that most top players are playing Terran.
Yeah man, that amazing Terran innovation, where it took them a year to realize Ghosts or Blue Flame Hellions are good. TvP has literally not changed one bit since release, except for the rise in Ghost usage recently. Amulet was even removed from the game because all those genius innovator Terrans couldn't figure out that they needed to build more Ghosts.
Seriously, what a joke.
Also, Protoss was the most represented race in Korea at launch. So why aren't they the top innovators with 20 Code S spots? My theory is that they wisened up, and took the Byun route.
On November 02 2011 18:55 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 09:32 Toadvine wrote:Seriously guys, we're concerned with the very top level of play here, not the ladder woes of a Diamond Terran. Puhleeze. If we're actually concerned with the very top level, then ALL of the "HTs/infestors/broodlords are harder to pull off than ghosts" argument fall flat on its ass and it completely comes down to protosses being lazy.
I don't know about Infestors and Broodlords, but HTs are literally impossible to pull off against really good TvPers. As in, they will always Snipe before the Ghost can be Feedbacked. You can even see this with Select, who is hardly a top Terran, but his Snipes are pretty goddamned amazing. Just now, I was watching hero play makaprime on his stream, he was trying to feedback a ghost, had the spell selected with the range indicator on, and the HT got sniped before the Ghost got in range.
I'd be fine if Protosses were dealing with Ghosts with sick HT control or Warp Prisms, but it simply doesn't happen. The mechanical difference of range and speed is simply too much.
|
On November 02 2011 20:58 CptCutter wrote:
ummm, why hasnt FG or Storm had a nerf along with it too? because unlike EMP, both of these spells actually kill units whereas EMP only temporarily damages them.
FG was nerfed, albeit not that much but still nerfed and storm was nerfed a while back with the removal of KA in a sense. EMP is getting nerfed simply because it's too powerful against protoss.
the fact that people defend EMP because "it does not kill units" is silly, that's not the benchmark of a good spell. good spells give you an advantage for investing in their caster rather than more robust fighting units. EMP doesn't kill units...it WINS GAMES against toss.
it's been said already: EMP has a large radius, long range and has instant results, too often have I seen PvT late game where both armies are maxed and Terran cloaks some ghosts, runs in and EMPs the protoss army and proceeds to roll over the toss army with MMM by stim and A-moving, trading like 40 supply of army for like 100+ supply of toss. that's stupid design and SHOULD NOT HAPPEN which is why EMP is getting nerfed.
personally I think a range nerf/slower projectile would have been a better fix so that toss can react and spread his units to avoid most but not all of the damage. but the nerf is justified.
|
I'll take buffs any day haha.
|
Why aren't they focusing on the PvP Tal'Darim Altar problem? That shit's stupid as hell.
|
On November 02 2011 22:54 Toadvine wrote:
I don't know about Infestors and Broodlords, but HTs are literally impossible to pull off against really good TvPers. As in, they will always Snipe before the Ghost can be Feedbacked. You can even see this with Select, who is hardly a top Terran, but his Snipes are pretty goddamned amazing. Just now, I was watching hero play makaprime on his stream, he was trying to feedback a ghost, had the spell selected with the range indicator on, and the HT got sniped before the Ghost got in range.
I'd be fine if Protosses were dealing with Ghosts with sick HT control or Warp Prisms, but it simply doesn't happen. The mechanical difference of range and speed is simply too much.
Feel free to open up the unit tester and make the following test.
Have a ghost and a HT miles away from each other.
Tell the HT to feedback the ghost, and tell the ghost to snipe the HT.
When I did this simple test, the HT was always able to cover the small difference of range and feedback the ghost before the ghost could get off two snipes.
Hell I struggled even getting off the first snipe due to the animation.
You can EMP the HTs before they can feedback you on the other hand, but if they got 150+ energy, they're still going to feedback you.
Edit:
Interesting thing is that you need to hit the HT before it reaches the max range of the center of the EMP itself, otherwise it'll still get a feedback off while the EMP missile is traveling. Basically, you need to aim slightly ahead of where the HT is moving to hit it with the edge of your EMP if you want to avoid getting feedbacked. If you just hit the HT when it's within the center of your EMP the feedback will always hit. I think with the lower radius the feedback vs EMP battle will be even closer, maybe even tipped to the HTs favor.
|
why the hell should terran and protoss have to make archs, stutterstep and micro like gods to defeat a deathball but when protoss gets their army emped cause they don't spread stuff/use warpprisms they wine about it instead of fixing it!
|
Terran can ALWAYS get 2 EMPS off on a HT before a HT can Feedback once if both players micro correctly. Snipe vs Feedback favours Feedback if both units are moving directly towards one another. Otherwise Snipe wins all the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
