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Why is there no reduction to FG? man you are a biased terran player if i ever saw one, my god 
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On November 02 2011 06:27 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. No, the most logical choice is to make colossi and use the HTs defensively until you're ready to move out.
I don't know that always ceding map control and sitting back is the best option. Unless I misunderstood your post.
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On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice.
Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off?
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On November 02 2011 06:38 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:27 aksfjh wrote:On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. No, the most logical choice is to make colossi and use the HTs defensively until you're ready to move out. I don't know that always ceding map control and sitting back is the best option. Unless I misunderstood your post.
Of course it isn't, but if you go fast templar (for storm or archons) and find yourself against ghosts, sometimes that's the best option. There are ways to take map control with DTs if you're really worried about losing that.
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On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off?
and only hits one target and wont kill a ghost because he already emped to waste energy.
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On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off?
Why should Snipe outrange Feedback when it kills the Templar no matter energy at the cost of 50 energy (2 snipes)?
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On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off?
EMP being AOE is way more powerful than feedback.
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On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off?
Just curious, do you really think Ghost vs HT is fair as it is right now? Do you think it will be fair after the change?
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On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off?
feedback rarely kills the ghost, is no more instant than EMP for all intents and purposes, and is way harder to use (and when used correctly, doesn't have as much of an affect).
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I can't wait for the new patch. I guess it'll be out on Thursday for NA. 
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On November 02 2011 06:48 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off? Why should Snipe outrange Feedback when it kills the Templar no matter energy at the cost of 50 energy (2 snipes)?
Because Snipe has an animation that takes forever whereas feedback is instant, and the distance you need to cover to feedback versus snipe is shorter than the animation.
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On November 02 2011 06:54 darkness wrote:I can't wait for the new patch. I guess it'll be out on Thursday for NA.
Careful getting your hopes up.. SEA would be patched first, which has to happen veeeeeery soon if the patch will hit this week. I hope though! but so far SEA seems be nowhere near patching.
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On November 02 2011 06:48 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off? Why should Snipe outrange Feedback when it kills the Templar no matter energy at the cost of 50 energy (2 snipes)?
Because Snipe has an animation that takes forever whereas feedback is instant, and the distance you need to cover to feedback versus snipe is shorter than the animation.
On November 02 2011 06:49 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off? Just curious, do you really think Ghost vs HT is fair as it is right now? Do you think it will be fair after the change?
Can't tell. I can count the amount of times I''ve seen protosses use their HTs properly on one hand after terrans started heavily implementing ghosts in their play at the top level of play, and all the protosses have died out in Code S, not allowing for much more examples of high level protoss play to begin with.
I'm ok with the EMP nerf as an objective thing by itself, and I think HTs are weak right now. But as far as ghosts vs HTs go, I can't tell. Protoss players have not adapted to ghost play and I can't make a fair comparison yet.
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On November 02 2011 07:53 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:48 blackbrrd wrote:On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off? Why should Snipe outrange Feedback when it kills the Templar no matter energy at the cost of 50 energy (2 snipes)? Because Snipe has an animation that takes forever whereas feedback is instant, and the distance you need to cover to feedback versus snipe is shorter than the animation. Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:49 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 06:39 Dalavita wrote:On November 02 2011 06:12 MattyClutch wrote:On November 02 2011 06:03 Targma wrote:
If they applies those upgrades they should prevent chrono boasting them, because its sick how fast they get 2\2
Emp wtf ?.? if they reduce radius ok but they need to increase range, with 1,5 radious its probably same range as HT FB.
And how the fuck will you EMP unless you emp in zone that HT is moving in so that delayed emp land at that time. If the FB has the same range as emp it will be impossible to emp them srsly only cloacked but iI don;t know why wouldn't they make one observer. Assuming you are playing properly if you were rushing to get 2/2 it won't come any faster. You dropped the forge, start an upgrade and as soon as one finishes you start the next. The difference is not great enough to get out many more units. It is a very small buff. Why do you think the ghost's EMP should outrange the HT's feedback? Using feedback on a ghost to stop him from EMPing your entire army is one of the ghost's counters. It is already a quicker unit and can be cloaked. Why should it also have superior range? I don't get why you think EMPs should be free or how you thought Protoss managed to use feedback when they had a slower moving non-cloaked unit with less range. Equal range seems to be the most logical choice. Because Feedback is instant, actually kills the ghost, and costs less energy to pull off? Just curious, do you really think Ghost vs HT is fair as it is right now? Do you think it will be fair after the change? Can't tell. I can count the amount of times I''ve seen protosses use their HTs properly on one hand after terrans started heavily implementing ghosts in their play at the top level of play, and all the protosses have died out in Code S, not allowing for much more examples of high level protoss play to begin with. I'm ok with the EMP nerf as an objective thing by itself, and I think HTs are weak right now. But as far as ghosts vs HTs go, I can't tell. Protoss players have not adapted to ghost play and I can't make a fair comparison yet.
Protoss players haven't adapted? Adapted to what? It's not a strategy we're talking about, it is simply micro. Unless you're saying Protoss players just overall have worse micro than Terran players which is ridiculous. You haven't seen HT feedback ghosts much because it's a losing proposition for Protoss in nearly all situations. It is as simple as that.
Or think of it this way. A Protoss player would have to feedback every ghost to prevent emp, a unit that can cloak, and a unit that is small and hard to target even when it isn't cloaked when mixed in with a bio army and under medivacs. The Terran has to cast a ground-targeted AoE, and he only has to get very few of them off successfully to completely nullify HT (and do significant damage to all other protoss units). So otherside of cases where it is only a few ghosts vs a few HT or something it is almost always better and just spread your HT and hope you get a few storms off before they get emp'ed. That's it.
And for the record I don't think EMP is crazy OP when considering the matchup as a whole, I just find all these feedback/emp comparisons ridiculous because they are not comparable, it isn't "who can micro better," it is clear EMP will win out, but that doesn't mean the matchup is super out of balance. Ghosts are supposed to be the counter to HT.
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If protoss players can't keep their HTs up and running, then yes, they do fail at micro, and yes, they are worse at micro. Or do you consider EMP OP because the Protoss player has his entire fucking army, HTs, sentries and archons in one massive clump when a scan lands on his army in an end game situation instead of thinking to themselves, GEE, I wonder what's going to hit me right this instant. The amount of times I've seen that is actually sigh-worthy at this stage, and that's what I consider a failure at adapting. It's not even EMP or Snipe by itself that defeats the protosses. It's the fact that the terran scans their army or snipes their observers, and I haven't even seen protosses try to react or respond to either, and that is actually strategy, and not simple micro. The only thing I've seen is HT warp prism ferrying, with some success, but the amount of times I've seen it even used is in the single digits still.
Also, you should think of it this way. The terran player would have to EMP every single HT to prevent storms. If you EMP half of them and the battle engages, and the protoss has HTs coming in from behind his army storming the shit out of your army, your bio ball is still going to die, regardless of if you landed EMPs or not.
The impetus is on Protoss to adapt to ghost usage because that's whats giving them a hard time. They've done nothing so far.
The only reason Terrans started implementing ghosts heavily was because the lategame protoss armies and infestor broodlord combinations were beating the shit out of them. Pendulum swings back to the protosses now.
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On November 02 2011 06:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:17 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:49 Mehukannu wrote:On November 02 2011 05:37 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:26 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 05:21 oogieogie wrote:On November 02 2011 05:06 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 04:04 hunts wrote:On November 01 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:On November 01 2011 07:00 []Phase[] wrote:
as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/ this! It just doesn't feel right that 1 unit (the ghost) can hard counter all of zergs lategame units (infestors, brood lords, ultras) very effectively and efficiently. It almost feels like zergs are forced to finish off a T before they are able to start making some ghosts because once ghosts hit the field it almost feels like the Z is punished for making their best and most expensive units. It just doesn't feel right that 2 units (infestor + broodlord / ultra) can HARD counter all of terrans lategame units (tanks, thors) very effectively and efficiently. I watched satini vs a zerg. Satini was on 2 more bases, and he had a HUGE advantage. Satinii had to turtle and couldn't kill his opponent. Why? Because you can't attack against infestor + ultra / broodlord. Satinii had AMAZING ghost control, but just couldn't attack. He had to turtle for an hour, then the zerg dried out. THIS worries me VERY hard. Everyone seems to forget this... Are you really saying that infestors,tanks,and thors are lategame units? Also ghosts do seem to be too good vs protoss w/emp and zerg with emp/snipe. I mean what do you even need snipe for? If the zerg has broodlords you can go vikings, and if they have ultras you can go marauders which is easily better then ghosts for them. inbe4 infestors killing the vikings..they would kill the ghosts too if you catch them, but with cloak + mass qued snipe it is just ridiculous. Well, I had to say something, since there are no terran tier 3 units... Broodlord + infestor combination is OP, like David Kim said in an interview. Then terrans used ghosts and now it's okay (but still imba imo). Let me explain vikings vs broodlord infestor: you spread your vikings perfect and with alot of luck you win the fight --> gratz, the zerg switched to ultralisk and you have useless vikings. Use them to kill overlords, ultras doesn't attack air, so you get map control, also you can land them near the mineral patches when there are no ground units around, and do some nice harras You do realize that zerg will not just make ultras? Trust me, there is going to be lings/blings and infestors with the ultras and infestors are going to eat vikings alive with both fungal and infested marines. <_< Are we talking about some kind of infinite vespene scenario in which you are able to switch from broodlords/infestors, to ultras/infestors/blings? Apparently we are talking about a scenario where zerg just making ultras after forcing terran to make vikings against infestor /broodlords combo, so yes, I think we are. But I have to say ultra/infestor/ling is pretty normal unit combo to make at late game and if zerg can afford to make broodlord/infestors which is more gas heavier than say ultra/infestor/ling/bling more than that zerg doesn't need to mass 10+ ultras either, about 6 is more than enough considering how big ultras are and having more than that will make ultras getting into the battle hard because of their huge size. Also, by the time zerg gets broodlord/infestor he will have 4 mining bases so he would be getting gas quite easily.
So your point is that a Zerg with 4 bases can easy transition from broodlords/infestors to Ultra/infestors/blings?
ok.
a) 4 bases = 6*4= 24 drones only on gas + 16*4= 64 drones on mineral = 88 supply only on drones, if u add 4 queens =92 supply only to support economy.
b) That lets you with a 108 supply army.
c) 4 bases are harder to defend than 2 o 3, specially with infestors and broodlords cause they re slow.
d) 6 Broodlords+6 infestors+6 ultras = 4200/3600
e) If you think 6 broodlords and 6 infestors and 6 ultras are some kind of unstoppable force, think again.
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On November 02 2011 08:30 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:31 Mehukannu wrote:On November 02 2011 06:17 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:49 Mehukannu wrote:On November 02 2011 05:37 Aborash wrote:On November 02 2011 05:26 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 05:21 oogieogie wrote:On November 02 2011 05:06 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 04:04 hunts wrote:On November 01 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:
[quote]
Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/ this! It just doesn't feel right that 1 unit (the ghost) can hard counter all of zergs lategame units (infestors, brood lords, ultras) very effectively and efficiently. It almost feels like zergs are forced to finish off a T before they are able to start making some ghosts because once ghosts hit the field it almost feels like the Z is punished for making their best and most expensive units. It just doesn't feel right that 2 units (infestor + broodlord / ultra) can HARD counter all of terrans lategame units (tanks, thors) very effectively and efficiently. I watched satini vs a zerg. Satini was on 2 more bases, and he had a HUGE advantage. Satinii had to turtle and couldn't kill his opponent. Why? Because you can't attack against infestor + ultra / broodlord. Satinii had AMAZING ghost control, but just couldn't attack. He had to turtle for an hour, then the zerg dried out. THIS worries me VERY hard. Everyone seems to forget this... Are you really saying that infestors,tanks,and thors are lategame units? Also ghosts do seem to be too good vs protoss w/emp and zerg with emp/snipe. I mean what do you even need snipe for? If the zerg has broodlords you can go vikings, and if they have ultras you can go marauders which is easily better then ghosts for them. inbe4 infestors killing the vikings..they would kill the ghosts too if you catch them, but with cloak + mass qued snipe it is just ridiculous. Well, I had to say something, since there are no terran tier 3 units... Broodlord + infestor combination is OP, like David Kim said in an interview. Then terrans used ghosts and now it's okay (but still imba imo). Let me explain vikings vs broodlord infestor: you spread your vikings perfect and with alot of luck you win the fight --> gratz, the zerg switched to ultralisk and you have useless vikings. Use them to kill overlords, ultras doesn't attack air, so you get map control, also you can land them near the mineral patches when there are no ground units around, and do some nice harras You do realize that zerg will not just make ultras? Trust me, there is going to be lings/blings and infestors with the ultras and infestors are going to eat vikings alive with both fungal and infested marines. <_< Are we talking about some kind of infinite vespene scenario in which you are able to switch from broodlords/infestors, to ultras/infestors/blings? Apparently we are talking about a scenario where zerg just making ultras after forcing terran to make vikings against infestor /broodlords combo, so yes, I think we are. But I have to say ultra/infestor/ling is pretty normal unit combo to make at late game and if zerg can afford to make broodlord/infestors which is more gas heavier than say ultra/infestor/ling/bling more than that zerg doesn't need to mass 10+ ultras either, about 6 is more than enough considering how big ultras are and having more than that will make ultras getting into the battle hard because of their huge size. Also, by the time zerg gets broodlord/infestor he will have 4 mining bases so he would be getting gas quite easily. So your point is that a Zerg with 4 bases can easy transition from broodlords/infestors to Ultra/infestors/blings? ok. a) 4 bases = 6*4= 24 drones only on gas + 16*4= 64 drones on mineral = 88 supply only on drones, if u add 4 queens =92 supply only to support economy. b) That lets you with a 108 supply army. c) 4 bases are harder to defend than 2 o 3, specially with infestors and broodlords cause they re slow. d) 6 Broodlords+6 infestors+6 ultras = 4200/3600 e) If you think 6 broodlords and 6 infestors and 6 ultras are some kind of unstoppable force, think again.
Yes, we know about supply. All the races share that mechanic.
What's your point?
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On November 02 2011 08:19 Dalavita wrote:
If protoss players can't keep their HTs up and running, then yes, they do fail at micro, and yes, they are worse at micro. Or do you consider EMP OP because the Protoss player has his entire fucking army, HTs, sentries and archons in one massive clump when a scan lands on his army in an end game situation instead of thinking to themselves, GEE, I wonder what's going to hit me right this instant. The amount of times I've seen that is actually sigh-worthy at this stage, and that's what I consider a failure at adapting. It's not even EMP or Snipe by itself that defeats the protosses. It's the fact that the terran scans their army or snipes their observers, and I haven't even seen protosses try to react or respond to either, and that is actually strategy, and not simple micro. The only thing I've seen is HT warp prism ferrying, with some success, but the amount of times I've seen it even used is in the single digits still.
Also, you should think of it this way. The terran player would have to EMP every single HT to prevent storms. If you EMP half of them and the battle engages, and the protoss has HTs coming in from behind his army storming the shit out of your army, your bio ball is still going to die, regardless of if you landed EMPs or not.
The impetus is on Protoss to adapt to ghost usage because that's whats giving them a hard time. They've done nothing so far.
The only reason Terrans started implementing ghosts heavily was because the lategame protoss armies and infestor broodlord combinations were beating the shit out of them. Pendulum swings back to the protosses now.
Reading comprehension please. You appeared to be arguing that you didn't know if ghosts or HT have it easier because it's rare you see protoss even attempt to feedback ghosts and that protoss' have not "adapted." I was aruging the mere fact of feedbacking ghosts is simply micro. All that other stuff you are spewing about warp prisms and spreading units only reinforces the notion that in a micro battle of emp and feedback, emp wins. That is the whole reason protoss has to do these things of loading HT in prisms, spreading their units out, etc. Do you see Terrans loading ghosts into medivacs to avoid feedback? They don't because they don't need to.
And yes you have to emp every HT, but you don't honestly believe that emp'ing every HT is at the same difficulty as feedbacking every ghost do you? Also I even specifically stated I don't think emp is OP when you consider the matchup as a whole. Again reading comprehension would be nice.
So like I said above, the emp and feedback comparisons are completely stupid. Terrans who try to argue that protoss need to feedback ghosts to prevent emp have no idea what they are talking about. How current mechanics work, as a protoss player, you simply have to attempt (via warp prisms or spreading out or whatever) to get your storms off before they get emp'ed. Trying to feedback ghosts to prevent emp, when there are more than a few ghosts out on the field, is pointless.
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Finally cheaper upgrades , but I think mass EMP might still be op but we will see
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Hm, a lot of this thread seems to be typical Terran deflection tactics.
"What? Ghosts are finally being revealed as being too strong and getting some small nerfs? B-b-but...THEN YOU'VE GOT TO NERF ZERG AND PROTOSS TOO THIS AIN'T FAIR!!"
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EPT
