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On November 01 2011 06:55 Zombo Joe wrote:
I was never aware EMP needed a nerf?
Maybe, just maybe, Protoss players would learn about army spreading, then suddenly EMP does jack shit. If you've seen a progamer doing a 2 ghost push in TvP before, you would know that the Protoss will ALWAYS spread his army out, especially his sentries.
At that point if Terran tries to engage he will almost cerntainly lose the battle. The only time EMP is problematic is when I hit 8 storm ready HT's with 1 EMP because Protoss clumped them all up because he 1a'd his army. That is not a balance problem, that is a lack of micro. If Terran players stayed with this same mentality of EMP Protoss have, to that of Banelings, Terran would still MMM every game vs Zerg and then whine that maxed engagements vs Zerg are impossible due to the nature of 60 banelings running over their bio.
What should be changed is making EMP projectile travel slower so Protoss can MICRO against it but really at this point, its going to take a metagame shift, not a balance shift.
Yea in early game when its two ghosts you can split your army and be ok. but late game when terran has anywhere between 5-9+ ghosts it doesn't matter how much you spread your army, can literally blanket the entire army in emps. there goes 1/2 of its health and all of our spells = GG
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On November 01 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:00 []Phase[] wrote:
as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/
this! It just doesn't feel right that 1 unit (the ghost) can hard counter all of zergs lategame units (infestors, brood lords, ultras) very effectively and efficiently. It almost feels like zergs are forced to finish off a T before they are able to start making some ghosts because once ghosts hit the field it almost feels like the Z is punished for making their best and most expensive units.
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On November 02 2011 04:02 0neder wrote:
This is nice, but really the zealot and stalker are too weak because sentries and warpgates are too strong, too early. I'm sorry, but a stalker should beat anything of comparable cost easily, same with a zealot. I would make guardian shield an upgrade, buff unit hp/dps/shields, and then nerf blink again.
EDIT: Barring the Marauder's removal, I would make concussive shells not effect shields as well.
You think Stalkers and Zealots beat units for cost early game? There are these things called "stim" "kiting" and "concussive shell" that and Terran above Plat uses to crush early Gateway compositions for-cost.
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On November 02 2011 04:07 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:02 0neder wrote:
This is nice, but really the zealot and stalker are too weak because sentries and warpgates are too strong, too early. I'm sorry, but a stalker should beat anything of comparable cost easily, same with a zealot. I would make guardian shield an upgrade, buff unit hp/dps/shields, and then nerf blink again.
EDIT: Barring the Marauder's removal, I would make concussive shells not effect shields as well. You think Stalkers and Zealots beat units for cost early game? There are these things called "stim" "kiting" and "concussive shell" that and Terran above Plat uses to crush early Gateway compositions for-cost.
He's saying that stalkers and zealots don't beat units for cost -_- and that it's necessary because sentries and warpgates would otherwise make them too strong.
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On November 02 2011 04:04 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:On November 01 2011 07:00 []Phase[] wrote:
as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/ this! It just doesn't feel right that 1 unit (the ghost) can hard counter all of zergs lategame units (infestors, brood lords, ultras) very effectively and efficiently. It almost feels like zergs are forced to finish off a T before they are able to start making some ghosts because once ghosts hit the field it almost feels like the Z is punished for making their best and most expensive units.
That Terran has one unit that shuts down all three of Zergs legitimate endgame options is silly. Ghosts should be great versus Brood Lords OR Ultras....that snipe dominates both is rough on Zerg, nevermind that EMP is great versus Infestors as well.
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On November 02 2011 04:04 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:55 Zombo Joe wrote:
I was never aware EMP needed a nerf?
Maybe, just maybe, Protoss players would learn about army spreading, then suddenly EMP does jack shit. If you've seen a progamer doing a 2 ghost push in TvP before, you would know that the Protoss will ALWAYS spread his army out, especially his sentries.
At that point if Terran tries to engage he will almost cerntainly lose the battle. The only time EMP is problematic is when I hit 8 storm ready HT's with 1 EMP because Protoss clumped them all up because he 1a'd his army. That is not a balance problem, that is a lack of micro. If Terran players stayed with this same mentality of EMP Protoss have, to that of Banelings, Terran would still MMM every game vs Zerg and then whine that maxed engagements vs Zerg are impossible due to the nature of 60 banelings running over their bio.
What should be changed is making EMP projectile travel slower so Protoss can MICRO against it but really at this point, its going to take a metagame shift, not a balance shift. Yea in early game when its two ghosts you can split your army and be ok. but late game when terran has anywhere between 5-9+ ghosts it doesn't matter how much you spread your army, can literally blanket the entire army in emps. there goes 1/2 of its health and all of our spells = GG
Yes and then you storm in return and he has no army whatsoever vs your half hp army.
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After reading the last few pages: "I'm a diamond level player and I'm smarter than David Kim, Blizzard Data Collection and Pro Player Feedback!"
Mind boggling...
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On November 02 2011 04:01 TheDraken wrote:
it's not that emp is too powerful by itself. it's that the rest of the terran army is a meatgrinder and is already shockingly efficient against pretty much everything. if ghosts were never in the game terran would do just fine. giving them something that can take so much shield hp away before engaging is just overkill.
If there was no emp we'd never win. BIO vs collosus+forcefields or storm is not even close
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On November 02 2011 04:25 Twistacles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:01 TheDraken wrote:
it's not that emp is too powerful by itself. it's that the rest of the terran army is a meatgrinder and is already shockingly efficient against pretty much everything. if ghosts were never in the game terran would do just fine. giving them something that can take so much shield hp away before engaging is just overkill. If there was no emp we'd never win. BIO vs collosus+forcefields or storm is not even close
Bio+Reactor Vikings can beat Collusus+Gateway in the mid-game if army position/micro/upgrades/whatever is in the terran's favour. It happens all the time.
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On November 02 2011 04:21 alepov wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:04 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On November 01 2011 06:55 Zombo Joe wrote:
I was never aware EMP needed a nerf?
Maybe, just maybe, Protoss players would learn about army spreading, then suddenly EMP does jack shit. If you've seen a progamer doing a 2 ghost push in TvP before, you would know that the Protoss will ALWAYS spread his army out, especially his sentries.
At that point if Terran tries to engage he will almost cerntainly lose the battle. The only time EMP is problematic is when I hit 8 storm ready HT's with 1 EMP because Protoss clumped them all up because he 1a'd his army. That is not a balance problem, that is a lack of micro. If Terran players stayed with this same mentality of EMP Protoss have, to that of Banelings, Terran would still MMM every game vs Zerg and then whine that maxed engagements vs Zerg are impossible due to the nature of 60 banelings running over their bio.
What should be changed is making EMP projectile travel slower so Protoss can MICRO against it but really at this point, its going to take a metagame shift, not a balance shift. Yea in early game when its two ghosts you can split your army and be ok. but late game when terran has anywhere between 5-9+ ghosts it doesn't matter how much you spread your army, can literally blanket the entire army in emps. there goes 1/2 of its health and all of our spells = GG Yes and then you storm in return and he has no army whatsoever vs your half hp army.
I love storming after I get EMP'ed.
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How can anyone not say terran especially at high level of play isn't an advantage or OP. Just LOOK at the GSL numbers! its like 80% terran and when you are playing for money or a living you are obviously going to go with the race that gives you the largest % chance to win based on your skill. Even the server statistics show this especially on the Korean servers.
Terrans needed to be taken down a peg, not a large amount but just a little so ZvT and ZvP was a little more favourable or even.
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Hell, I sit at a low-mid masters level of play on ladder which has had me bounced from Diamond to masters a few times, and one thing I deffently notice is the second I get closer to masters or back in masters there is more Terran players. Maybe its just a coincidence but i doubt it
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the change in cost for shield upgrade makes sense in fact it may even need to go down further because emp just makes those upgrades irrelevant my complaint is that the emp change isn't going to solve the problem the real problem is when its late game terran has like 7 ghosts and carpet emps the entire toss army the real change that we need is that emp either takes shields or energy or they can make it so that it takes less of both
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On November 02 2011 04:04 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:On November 01 2011 07:00 []Phase[] wrote:
as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/ this! It just doesn't feel right that 1 unit (the ghost) can hard counter all of zergs lategame units (infestors, brood lords, ultras) very effectively and efficiently. It almost feels like zergs are forced to finish off a T before they are able to start making some ghosts because once ghosts hit the field it almost feels like the Z is punished for making their best and most expensive units.
It just doesn't feel right that 2 units (infestor + broodlord / ultra) can HARD counter all of terrans lategame units (tanks, thors) very effectively and efficiently.
I watched satini vs a zerg. Satini was on 2 more bases, and he had a HUGE advantage. Satinii had to turtle and couldn't kill his opponent. Why? Because you can't attack against infestor + ultra / broodlord. Satinii had AMAZING ghost control, but just couldn't attack. He had to turtle for an hour, then the zerg dried out. THIS worries me VERY hard. Everyone seems to forget this...
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On November 02 2011 04:55 rustypipe wrote:
How can anyone not say terran especially at high level of play isn't an advantage or OP. Just LOOK at the GSL numbers! its like 80% terran and when you are playing for money or a living you are obviously going to go with the race that gives you the largest % chance to win based on your skill. Even the server statistics show this especially on the Korean servers.
Terrans needed to be taken down a peg, not a large amount but just a little so ZvT and ZvP was a little more favourable or even.
By that statement, i'm gonna infer you mean that the problem doesn't actually lie in Terran strenght, but that zerg needs more tweaking to make its success equally probable with equal player skill?
I'm sad how blizzard is "happy" with balance, when there are so many units that could be filling the space... Carriers could counter thors vs terran, battle cruisers could counter late game mutalisks and broodlords, and hydras could counter terran and protoss mech play... with some tweaks...
I mean, all they hydra REALLY needs (even though i would give it more like +2 vs mech or something) is a range buff... if grooved spines was +2 instead of +1, it would be huge.. because then hydras would be practically a zerg tier 2 siege range being superior to bio and gateway range... then in combo with good mid game infestors it would enable zerg to be aggressive in the mid game (both in direct attacks, but also in drops and harassment)...
Battle cruisers are only seen in TvT, if they made the air damage match the ground damage and possibly added a bonus vs bio (something like 8 +2 vs biological), then BCs would make a substitute for ghosts in the mid to late TvZ for fighting mutalisks and broodlords (allowing ghosts to return to 150min/150gas where they belong)
Carriers are sad, but what i noticed is that void rays have an unneccesary +20% damage vs massive... that should go, isntead give carriers a +2 vs armored, and then Carriers would be good addition both as gimmicks, but also at dealing with late game armor units like ultralisks and roach heavy play (even though they are vulnerable to void rays and vikings and corruptors)
I see these units and say, how can blizzard neglect so many promising units... with tweaks like this they could solve all the problems without making or breaking the units that currently work!
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On November 02 2011 04:55 rustypipe wrote:
How can anyone not say terran especially at high level of play isn't an advantage or OP. Just LOOK at the GSL numbers! its like 80% terran and when you are playing for money or a living you are obviously going to go with the race that gives you the largest % chance to win based on your skill. Even the server statistics show this especially on the Korean servers.
Terrans needed to be taken down a peg, not a large amount but just a little so ZvT and ZvP was a little more favourable or even.
Just look at CODE A GSL, MLG, ESWC and every other tournament! You will notice 2 things:
- EU / NA terrans are DOMINATED, not DOMINATING (only thorzain and select are doing decent).
- Z and P are doing extremely well.
JUST LOOK at this (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) and tell me that terran is OP.
+ Show Spoiler +MLG with BEASTLY terrans like BOMBER, BOXER, PUMA, POLT, THESTC, ... ends in a PvP finals, and you dare to say that terran is OP?
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On November 02 2011 05:11 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:55 rustypipe wrote:
How can anyone not say terran especially at high level of play isn't an advantage or OP. Just LOOK at the GSL numbers! its like 80% terran and when you are playing for money or a living you are obviously going to go with the race that gives you the largest % chance to win based on your skill. Even the server statistics show this especially on the Korean servers.
Terrans needed to be taken down a peg, not a large amount but just a little so ZvT and ZvP was a little more favourable or even.
Just look at CODE A GSL, MLG, ESWC and every other tournament! You will notice 2 things: - EU / NA terrans are DOMINATED, not DOMINATING (only thorzain and select are doing decent). - Z and P are doing extremely well. JUST LOOK at this (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) and tell me that terran is OP. + Show Spoiler +MLG with BEASTLY terrans like BOMBER, BOXER, PUMA, POLT, THESTC, ... ends in a PvP finals, and you dare to say that terran is OP?
the highest level of play is Code S so arguing that second class terran players are not as dominating as they could be in the lower leagues means nothing for high level balance.
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On November 02 2011 05:14 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:11 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 04:55 rustypipe wrote:
How can anyone not say terran especially at high level of play isn't an advantage or OP. Just LOOK at the GSL numbers! its like 80% terran and when you are playing for money or a living you are obviously going to go with the race that gives you the largest % chance to win based on your skill. Even the server statistics show this especially on the Korean servers.
Terrans needed to be taken down a peg, not a large amount but just a little so ZvT and ZvP was a little more favourable or even.
Just look at CODE A GSL, MLG, ESWC and every other tournament! You will notice 2 things: - EU / NA terrans are DOMINATED, not DOMINATING (only thorzain and select are doing decent). - Z and P are doing extremely well. JUST LOOK at this (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) and tell me that terran is OP. + Show Spoiler +MLG with BEASTLY terrans like BOMBER, BOXER, PUMA, POLT, THESTC, ... ends in a PvP finals, and you dare to say that terran is OP? the highest level of play is Code S so arguing that second class terran players are not as dominating as they could be in the lower leagues means nothing for high level balance.
Those code S terrans attend other tourneys, and guess what? They don't dominate as much as in code S. Watch MLG, ESWC, etc...
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"second class terran players" are you fucking serious? the fact is the korean style of play is still kind of keeping up but it will probably fall down soon aswell... and the reason why there are so many terrans in code S is because the format was so retarded for a long time... and most of the code A players can just as well be code S...
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On November 02 2011 05:14 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:11 Snowbear wrote:On November 02 2011 04:55 rustypipe wrote:
How can anyone not say terran especially at high level of play isn't an advantage or OP. Just LOOK at the GSL numbers! its like 80% terran and when you are playing for money or a living you are obviously going to go with the race that gives you the largest % chance to win based on your skill. Even the server statistics show this especially on the Korean servers.
Terrans needed to be taken down a peg, not a large amount but just a little so ZvT and ZvP was a little more favourable or even.
Just look at CODE A GSL, MLG, ESWC and every other tournament! You will notice 2 things: - EU / NA terrans are DOMINATED, not DOMINATING (only thorzain and select are doing decent). - Z and P are doing extremely well. JUST LOOK at this (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) and tell me that terran is OP. + Show Spoiler +MLG with BEASTLY terrans like BOMBER, BOXER, PUMA, POLT, THESTC, ... ends in a PvP finals, and you dare to say that terran is OP? the highest level of play is Code S so arguing that second class terran players are not as dominating as they could be in the lower leagues means nothing for high level balance.
Exactly this, Its like saying banelings are OP in the gold league because the terrans there can't split...
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EPT
