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On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh  ?
Errr, no they don't.
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On November 01 2011 02:34 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:30 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it. Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely leathal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say. In all honesty, this argument seems the same as saying Plague isn't strong because it can't kill anything. In an RTS, you really can't look at abilities or even units in a vacuum.
lol so many quotes... so funny kekekeke....
Plague is actually quite comparable to emp... at least in zerg vs protoss... its very good, almost neccesary... I wasn't trying to think so much as vacuum, is pointing out that vacuum insidents are just as important. I've seen Destiny destroy entire terran and protoss armies using fungal growths and infested terrans, IMMVP destroys zerg late game forces using EMP and snipes. While, i haven't seen psionic storm alone kill things (simply because its designed to be escapable...) i have seen games where 2 storms deal upward 90% damage to an army.
Storm and Fungal have no damage cap... there is no reason to not apply as liberally as possible (short of wasting damage by stacking)... but i would say this isn't the case for EMP... EMP deals 50 - 100 damage per unit, but in most cases cannot deal beyond 150 damage to a single unit...
Beyond that, you can't really compare EMP vs protoss to Storm vs Terran (and complain about damage.) this is because of the health/shield differences between the units in both races:
Terran units generally have between 50 and 160 hp... protoss units generally have between 150 and 350 hp (with exceptions in Thors / sentries / templars / and some other unimportant late game units. Dealing 40 or 80 damage to a terran army, equal or even more devastating than dealing 80 or 160 damage to a protoss army.
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On November 01 2011 02:34 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:30 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it. Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely leathal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say. In all honesty, this argument seems the same as saying Plague isn't strong because it can't kill anything. In an RTS, you really can't look at abilities or even units in a vacuum.
But looking at EMP in a vacuum makes it so much easier to defend. "Look I have 75 EMPs and they didn't kill a single unit. Say that about 75 Storms, huh? That's right, you can't. So EMP must be worse than storm."
Blizzard was quoted as saying a single EMP can do up to 1000 damage to protoss shields. If you stacked marauders as close as possible, you might be able to get that sort of damage out of a single storm, assuming they didn't move.
Also, with the exception of Zealots, Immortal and colossi, shields make up nearly 50% of the health for protoss ground units. The number never goes below 1/3. Anyone making the argument that EMP doesn't do damage grasping at straws. It would be like a protoss player saying all terran bio never never take any damage because they can be healed by medivacs.
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On November 01 2011 02:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:34 Daralii wrote:On November 01 2011 02:30 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it. Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely leathal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say. In all honesty, this argument seems the same as saying Plague isn't strong because it can't kill anything. In an RTS, you really can't look at abilities or even units in a vacuum. But looking at EMP in a vacuum makes it so much easier to defend. "Look I have 75 EMPs and they didn't kill a single unit. Say that about 75 Storms, huh? That's right, you can't. So EMP must be worse than storm." Blizzard was quoted as saying a single EMP can do up to 1000 damage to protoss shields. If you stacked marauders as close as possible, you might be able to get that sort of damage out of a single storm, assuming they didn't move. Also, with the exception of Zealots, Immortal and colossi, shields make up nearly 50% of the health for protoss ground units. The number never goes below 1/3. Anyone making the argument that EMP doesn't do damage grasping at straws. It would be like a protoss player saying all terran bio never never take any damage because they can be healed by medivacs.
if you stacked 40 mutas on each other and hit them with a thor, it would deal 1920 damage... so does that make thor anti air attacks overpowered? especially since it *GASP* doesn't cost any energy? and... and... thor attacks STACK!?!? holy fucking splash damage batman!
Actually, i'm joking at this point... because i don't think EMP is overpowered... not when theres so much splash on both sides to factor... i mean, i almost consider force field to be aoe splash damage even if it doesnt effect health at all...
Terran have siege tanks (meh, they get used for range, not because they're scary or cost effective) and EMP... protoss have storms and colossus (with the benefit of force fields for increased control)
I mean, while we are theory crafting about 1000 damage EMPS, you could put a FF wall behind a bio ball and annihilate it with storms... i dont think that conc shell really compares to that situation (in terms of CC)
( oh btw, if anyone asks, i am an ex-Terran converted Zerg player, and unless its liquid'Tyler or Incontrol, I always liquibet against protoss players because i want them to lose :D )
[Although, if you want to talk about ways to make EMP not as crazy powerful, you could make the EMP missile travel slower so Terran would have to lead their shots more often... i would be down with that  ]
Right now the EMP missile travels at speed 30... i could see it going down to 6 or so... (just over speedlings on creep) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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On November 01 2011 03:10 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:51 Plansix wrote:On November 01 2011 02:34 Daralii wrote:On November 01 2011 02:30 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it. Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely leathal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say. In all honesty, this argument seems the same as saying Plague isn't strong because it can't kill anything. In an RTS, you really can't look at abilities or even units in a vacuum. But looking at EMP in a vacuum makes it so much easier to defend. "Look I have 75 EMPs and they didn't kill a single unit. Say that about 75 Storms, huh? That's right, you can't. So EMP must be worse than storm." Blizzard was quoted as saying a single EMP can do up to 1000 damage to protoss shields. If you stacked marauders as close as possible, you might be able to get that sort of damage out of a single storm, assuming they didn't move. Also, with the exception of Zealots, Immortal and colossi, shields make up nearly 50% of the health for protoss ground units. The number never goes below 1/3. Anyone making the argument that EMP doesn't do damage grasping at straws. It would be like a protoss player saying all terran bio never never take any damage because they can be healed by medivacs. if you stacked 40 mutas on each other and hit them with a thor, it would deal 1920 damage... so does that make thor anti air attacks overpowered? especially since it *GASP* doesn't cost any energy? and... and... thor attacks STACK!?!? holy fucking splash damage batman! Actually, i'm joking at this point... because i don't think EMP is overpowered... not when theres so much splash on both sides to factor... i mean, i almost consider force field to be aoe splash damage even if it doesnt effect health at all... Terran have siege tanks (meh, they get used for range, not because they're scary or cost effective) and EMP... protoss have storms and colossus (with the benefit of force fields for increased control) I mean, while we are theory crafting about 1000 damage EMPS, you could put a FF wall behind a bio ball and annihilate it with storms... i dont think that conc shell really compares to that situation (in terms of CC) ( oh btw, if anyone asks, i am an ex-Terran converted Zerg player, and unless its liquid'Tyler or Incontrol, I always liquibet against protoss players because i want them to lose :D ) [Although, if you want to talk about ways to make EMP not as crazy powerful, you could make the EMP missile travel slower so Terran would have to lead their shots more often... i would be down with that ] Right now the EMP missile travels at speed 30... i could see it going down to 6 or so... (just over speedlings on creep) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't really think there is a lot of theory crafting to say a single EMP doing a ton of damage. It is not a DOT, so the damage just happens. And the FF and storm example seems slightly silly, since you talking about a wall of FF with another unit placing down storms. EMP can do all of that without the need for the pesky FFs.
I like the size reduction of EMP. I would also like to see it have less range, since 10 range with 11 sight is farther than every other spell caster.
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I guess the EMP radius modifier is OK, though I think it would have been more interesting to slow down the projectile so that it could be dodged (eg. sci-vessel EMP speed). Adds the skill to Terrans of having to lead your opponent and gives a slight chance for good players to react.
As for snipe and zerg - I think zergs could either use some sort of energy-draining ability, or more uniquely, something that stuns psionics (that modifier doesn't get used at all currently). Still, mass ghost seems like a really hard place to get to in the game so I don't see it as being that big of a problem really.
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I was never aware EMP needed a nerf?
Maybe, just maybe, Protoss players would learn about army spreading, then suddenly EMP does jack shit. If you've seen a progamer doing a 2 ghost push in TvP before, you would know that the Protoss will ALWAYS spread his army out, especially his sentries.
At that point if Terran tries to engage he will almost cerntainly lose the battle. The only time EMP is problematic is when I hit 8 storm ready HT's with 1 EMP because Protoss clumped them all up because he 1a'd his army. That is not a balance problem, that is a lack of micro. If Terran players stayed with this same mentality of EMP Protoss have, to that of Banelings, Terran would still MMM every game vs Zerg and then whine that maxed engagements vs Zerg are impossible due to the nature of 60 banelings running over their bio.
What should be changed is making EMP projectile travel slower so Protoss can MICRO against it but really at this point, its going to take a metagame shift, not a balance shift.
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as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous
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On November 01 2011 07:00 []Phase[] wrote:
as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous
Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/
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On November 01 2011 06:55 Zombo Joe wrote:
I was never aware EMP needed a nerf?
Maybe, just maybe, Protoss players would learn about army spreading, then suddenly EMP does jack shit. If you've seen a progamer doing a 2 ghost push in TvP before, you would know that the Protoss will ALWAYS spread his army out, especially his sentries.
At that point if Terran tries to engage he will almost cerntainly lose the battle. The only time EMP is problematic is when I hit 8 storm ready HT's with 1 EMP because Protoss clumped them all up because he 1a'd his army. That is not a balance problem, that is a lack of micro. If Terran players stayed with this same mentality of EMP Protoss have, to that of Banelings, Terran would still MMM every game vs Zerg and then whine that maxed engagements vs Zerg are impossible due to the nature of 60 banelings running over their bio.
What should be changed is making EMP projectile travel slower so Protoss can MICRO against it but really at this point, its going to take a metagame shift, not a balance shift.
Please tell me how toss should outmicro units that can kill HT without taking any damage.Because you know Snipe and emp > feedback.
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On November 01 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:00 []Phase[] wrote:
as zerg I wouldve liked a snipe nerf...
emp vs shields was a problem, but it isnt the only ability of ghost thats abit rediculous Snipe is a bit ridiculous imo.. I keep seeing games where Zerg has clear advantage but a few snipes insta-kills their key units for free basically.. =/
What games are these, honestly the only person I've seen using this in a big tournaments is IMMVP and he is considered the best terran in the world.
How is snipe "free" its a spell that consumes ghost energy. Its like saying any "insert unit with energy attack spells" can kill units for free. Snipe is actually more skillful than fungal/storm/emp because it causes you to prioritize ghost usage exclusively for a longer duration.
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I wish they just reduced the range of snipe by 1 or something. The problem with the ghost has always been that it's so hard to punish a ghost user. As a zerg, if you want to stop them with an infestor then this is actually hard, since they can cast snipe from far away and as your infestor gets closer it can be EMP'ed as well. If the terran micros correctly you won't win these fights.
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dear terrans:
the emp nerf is fine, and you know it, it is an easy-to-use spell that does not require any upgrade and are currently stronger than storms when fighting protoss units, have longer range than storms and fungal growth, and disables the enemy spellcasters.
can protoss deal with emp before the nerf? yes, it's not the simplest thing in the world, but yes.
can terran deal with storm after the nerf? yes, it's not the simplest thing in the world, but yes.
which sides trouble was bigger? the protoss, they will still need to spread their units even after the patch, but it will be easier to do so compared to before, a disastrous emp will still decide a game, but so will a disastrous storm, the difference is that terran have an easier time to neutralize/avoid the storm, and thus the emp should be weaker.
so what do we do? go ahead with the patch, not much will change, terrans will simply have to aim a little better, and use more of their AOE spell to have roughly the same effect.
the change is fine, no need to whine about it.
ex where my race would be nerfed: lets say the infestors fungal growth radius was reduced to 1.5 instead of 2, thats fine, even I see that fungal growth is kind of a bullshit spell that will more likely than not be hit by the nerfbat again in the future, but what will I do? I will aim better with my fungals, because I know I'm not reliant on my fungals to do the current full potential anyway. I can't even execute them that well even if I tried, so I can improve far more than nerfs can bring me down, and thus I will keep improving.
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I dunno how people can watch top level TvP and still try to defend the current EMP. It just doesn't make any sense. ^___^
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On November 01 2011 07:59 nvs. wrote:
I dunno how people can watch top level TvP and still try to defend the current EMP. It just doesn't make any sense. ^___^
Probably because we think the EMP LOOKED really scary (as day9 would put it) but we're convinced that the game balance at those moments was more relative to the economies of the players / thier relative strategies / and the unit placement - locations of the battles / as well as at what times those battles occurred (timing pushes, vulnerabilities etc)
I'm convinced that without EMP and some medivacs, terran would lose all those battles, just as much as I am convinced that without colossus and some force fields protoss would lose all those battles... with both it comes down to positioning, unit upgrades, and macro (not micro, macro... whos army is better + how fast can it be replaced)
Have you seen the 1.5 radius emp??? I'm down with it and all, but sheeesh its tiny!
Gonna be that much harder to EMP observers now tt lol
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On November 01 2011 07:59 nvs. wrote:
I dunno how people can watch top level TvP and still try to defend the current EMP. It just doesn't make any sense. ^___^
Should've made it a projectile
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the problem is attacking, for everything else the radius of 2 is fine for any spells. but for attackers its to much, so fungal will soon follow. And then all aoe spells went from 2 to 1.5. And we are even again, no reason to complain. Except that you won't be able to attack with casters since their spells won't work for it.
Generally toss never splits which makes emp look so op. If they do split their army and wait for the terran, the terran will never dare to attack. Storm and emp really only mess an army up if they are moving (with 1.5), fungal still works in most cases. Should have made fungal/emp range 8 radius 2 and storm range 9 radius 1.5 imo.
Atm the ghosts at the advantage of being able to stand in front of the army, which templars can't do so ghosts can stop storms while templars can't stop emps. Range change would allow storms to hit a lil part(storming the ghosts), feedback to stop emps (well kinda even) and snipe to stop feedback.
Would feel way better for me. Emp and fungal would still be able to poke each other down. But storm would be able to outrange fungal a lil.
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On November 01 2011 02:49 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:34 Daralii wrote:On November 01 2011 02:30 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it. Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely leathal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say. In all honesty, this argument seems the same as saying Plague isn't strong because it can't kill anything. In an RTS, you really can't look at abilities or even units in a vacuum. lol so many quotes... so funny kekekeke.... Plague is actually quite comparable to emp... at least in zerg vs protoss... its very good, almost neccesary... I wasn't trying to think so much as vacuum, is pointing out that vacuum insidents are just as important. I've seen Destiny destroy entire terran and protoss armies using fungal growths and infested terrans, IMMVP destroys zerg late game forces using EMP and snipes. While, i haven't seen psionic storm alone kill things (simply because its designed to be escapable...) i have seen games where 2 storms deal upward 90% damage to an army. Storm and Fungal have no damage cap... there is no reason to not apply as liberally as possible (short of wasting damage by stacking)... but i would say this isn't the case for EMP... EMP deals 50 - 100 damage per unit, but in most cases cannot deal beyond 150 damage to a single unit... Beyond that, you can't really compare EMP vs protoss to Storm vs Terran (and complain about damage.) this is because of the health/shield differences between the units in both races: Terran units generally have between 50 and 160 hp... protoss units generally have between 150 and 350 hp (with exceptions in Thors / sentries / templars / and some other unimportant late game units. Dealing 40 or 80 damage to a terran army, equal or even more devastating than dealing 80 or 160 damage to a protoss army.
it's not that emp is too powerful by itself. it's that the rest of the terran army is a meatgrinder and is already shockingly efficient against pretty much everything. if ghosts were never in the game terran would do just fine. giving them something that can take so much shield hp away before engaging is just overkill.
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This is nice, but really the zealot and stalker are too weak because sentries and warpgates are too strong, too early. I'm sorry, but a stalker should beat anything of comparable cost easily, same with a zealot. I would make guardian shield an upgrade, buff unit hp/dps/shields, and then nerf blink again.
EDIT: Barring the Marauder's removal, I would make concussive shells not effect shields as well.
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EPT
