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On October 30 2011 11:40 Campyy wrote:
i wish zerg would get 1 set of upgrades instead of seperate upgrades for melee and ranged
It does seem quite silly o.O... i mean, broodlings... don't they get melee damage upgrades? even though they use air damage? I guess blizzard just looked for a logical way to separate zerg upgrades (i.e. Terran mech and bio == zerg ranged and melee) ?? i do like the universal ground armor upgrade  when i play zerg, i usually emphasize ranged upgrades and armor... but there is a reason i am in gold, and that could be it.
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On October 30 2011 11:43 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:40 Campyy wrote:
i wish zerg would get 1 set of upgrades instead of seperate upgrades for melee and ranged It does seem quite silly o.O... i mean, broodlings... don't they get melee damage upgrades? even though they use air damage? I guess blizzard just looked for a logical way to separate zerg upgrades (i.e. Terran mech and bio == zerg ranged and melee) ?? i do like the universal ground armor upgrade when i play zerg, i usually emphasize ranged upgrades and armor... but there is a reason i am in gold, and that could be it.
every race has an annoying separation in upgrades.
Terran has infantry attack/armor, vehicle attack/armor, ship attack/armor.
Protoss has ground attack/armor, air attack/armor, and shields.
Zerg has ground melee/ranged/armor, and air attack/armor.
I guess protoss seems like the least annoying since they mostly go ground anyway, but having to get a separate upgrade for shield armor is pretty annoying in the same way having to get upgrades for roaches vs lings is. seems pretty even to me though in general
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these little changes doesnt affect anything better players will still win and worse players still lose race doesnt matter
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On October 30 2011 11:48 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
these little changes doesnt affect anything better players will still win and worse players still lose race doesnt matter
Your mostly right, but i should point out how these upgrade separations discourage certain unit compositions. Terran players rarely get air weapons and armor, if any siege tanks are made, vehicle weapons gets priority, and beyond that players mostly get bio upgrades, because bio units are made all game long (and therefor are the most efficient of terran upgrades)
This ignores all those other silly engineering bay upgrades like building armor, high sec auto tracking and bunker capacity... pros never get those...
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Has Blizzard stated their intent on Ghosts and Zerg? Because they buffed them by reducing the cost of them and it was supposed to help with BL/infestor, except it's now taken BL out of the game which goes completely against Blizzards line of thinking from Blizzcon for HotS.
You actually can't even tech switch to Ultras once they are out because they annihilate them too. So reducing the radius of EMP is a good change, but it needs to go further than that imo.
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On October 30 2011 11:40 Campyy wrote:
i wish zerg would get 1 set of upgrades instead of seperate upgrades for melee and ranged
I wish protoss could make 10 workers at a time on 2 bases.
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On October 30 2011 11:08 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 10:00 terranghost wrote:That's exactly it they need some type of universal unit that is at least decently affective against both ends of the zerg late game tech tree. Say you are going your marine tank against zerg and they go infestor-BL. Well you decide to make a bunch of vikings to kill the BLs and then the zerg decides that was the only batch of BLs he was gonna make now its all ultra-infestor. Congragulations terran player you now have 5-10 useless vikings might as well go harass or kill overlords with them because they are going to be 100% useless in the upcoming fight. I feel like the Battle cruiser could be buffed because it is in the perfect position (technologically and strategically) to be an answer to late game zerg play... an example, would be to give the battle cruiser +1 vs biological with each upgrade, then it would be strong enough against zerg units to offset its retarded cost inefficiency/impracticality... Consider currently, that the Battle Crusier hits for 6 damage vs air at .23; and the marine htis for 6 at .86... 1 Battle Cruiser deals 26 dps; while 4 marines deal 27.9 dps.. *those are unstimmed by the way* Throw in some extras mechanical concepts like high sec auto tracking giving BCs +1 range and maybe allowing the BC to perform phoenix drive by's and you have an upgrade dependent late game unit that would be able to perform "strong" against the units it is supposed to i.e. broodlords and mutalisks... yet still be vulnerable to corruptors or infestors with hydras. Traditionally, the battle cruiser has been used exclusively in Terran and protoss matchups... when BCs lost 20% of their ground damage, they dropped out of use vs protoss... Now they are essentially an Ego boost and bad-manor unit used ONLY in TvT in the late game where its ONLY reason for use is that the BC doesn't die as fast as banshees when engaging tank lines. That is just theory crafting, but i find the whole snipe thing silly and impractical... Luckily for the pro scene, MVP is a god with perfect macro so if there is anyone to pull off the most ridiculous micro, it would be him.
I see that has highly unlikely. Blizzard tried to improve on the BC for WOL but failed at it horribly. The BC despite being a fucking capital ship remains basically at the same role it played in BW. A tvt stalemate ender. + Show Spoiler +And it can only do that if you already have air dominance.
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On October 30 2011 10:11 Markwerf wrote:
Blizzard is already doing an awesome job of trying to give each unit a proper role.
you... read that stuff below....
On October 30 2011 12:40 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:08 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On October 30 2011 10:00 terranghost wrote:That's exactly it they need some type of universal unit that is at least decently affective against both ends of the zerg late game tech tree. Say you are going your marine tank against zerg and they go infestor-BL. Well you decide to make a bunch of vikings to kill the BLs and then the zerg decides that was the only batch of BLs he was gonna make now its all ultra-infestor. Congragulations terran player you now have 5-10 useless vikings might as well go harass or kill overlords with them because they are going to be 100% useless in the upcoming fight. I feel like the Battle cruiser could be buffed because it is in the perfect position (technologically and strategically) to be an answer to late game zerg play... an example, would be to give the battle cruiser +1 vs biological with each upgrade, then it would be strong enough against zerg units to offset its retarded cost inefficiency/impracticality... Consider currently, that the Battle Crusier hits for 6 damage vs air at .23; and the marine htis for 6 at .86... 1 Battle Cruiser deals 26 dps; while 4 marines deal 27.9 dps.. *those are unstimmed by the way* Throw in some extras mechanical concepts like high sec auto tracking giving BCs +1 range and maybe allowing the BC to perform phoenix drive by's and you have an upgrade dependent late game unit that would be able to perform "strong" against the units it is supposed to i.e. broodlords and mutalisks... yet still be vulnerable to corruptors or infestors with hydras. Traditionally, the battle cruiser has been used exclusively in Terran and protoss matchups... when BCs lost 20% of their ground damage, they dropped out of use vs protoss... Now they are essentially an Ego boost and bad-manor unit used ONLY in TvT in the late game where its ONLY reason for use is that the BC doesn't die as fast as banshees when engaging tank lines. That is just theory crafting, but i find the whole snipe thing silly and impractical... Luckily for the pro scene, MVP is a god with perfect macro so if there is anyone to pull off the most ridiculous micro, it would be him. I see that has highly unlikely. Blizzard tried to improve on the BC for WOL but failed at it horribly. The BC despite being a fucking capital ship remains basically at the same role it played in BW. A tvt stalemate ender. + Show Spoiler +And it can only do that if you already have air dominance. Which saddens me. Maybe we will see more stuff with the BC in HOTS blizzard already seems to have intentions to fix this problem in HOTS but as for massive changes to the BC for WOL not likely. And also you have to remember any changes you make to the BC to buff it as that possible end game solution will make it harder on the zerg as of now the only real solutions the zerg have are infestors and corruptors. Hydras just get melted along the way.
Its a shame is what it is... the HOTS upgrade is just another silly cooldown oriented apm dump like the corruption spell... and its not even really practical.
I guess Blizzard is just so ignorant that they thing damage output is one of the battle cruiser's strengths... when it is actually one of it's primary weeknesses. But blizzard seemed more interested in giving BCs a movement speed / stim buff ability... maybe so BCs can fight vikings? i don't really see the point tbh...
i GUESS that you could use it to micro BCs out of battle (which is actually quite practical) but i would prefer BCs to have a reason to be in the fight in the first place...
Giving BCs this silly cooldown based mobility spell doesn't fix the fact that there is NO REASON to build BCs right now... like the carrier, they have no real role (tvt stalemate breaker doesn't count).
EDIT: (i've been doing some internal testing with BCs dealing 8 base air damage (from 6) with 1 (+1 vs biological)... and corruptors are still cost/supply effective counter units. I was surprised however, that with this upgrade BCs could actually stand their ground against mutalisks and small numbers of corruptors (courtesy of the significant boost in damage output) Also, BCs hitting for 11 (+3 vs bio) melts late game marines quite nicely
This change i suggested would make the battle cruiser an actual strategic asset (in the non mirror matchup), instead of a UI decoration. I intend to write another thread soon, explaining a concept i call "tier inflation" that is the cause for most late game units being trash...
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On October 30 2011 11:43 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:40 Campyy wrote:
i wish zerg would get 1 set of upgrades instead of seperate upgrades for melee and ranged It does seem quite silly o.O... i mean, broodlings... don't they get melee damage upgrades? even though they use air damage? I guess blizzard just looked for a logical way to separate zerg upgrades (i.e. Terran mech and bio == zerg ranged and melee) ?? i do like the universal ground armor upgrade when i play zerg, i usually emphasize ranged upgrades and armor... but there is a reason i am in gold, and that could be it.
Broodlings don't use air damage.
The broodlord launches the broodling at the target. On impact it does 20 damage, modified by air upgrades. The action is done by the broodlord and the broodling is merely a projectile.
The broodling then becomes a unit and does its own attacks, doing 4 damage, modified by melee upgrades.
So air upgrades affect broodlord launch damage while melee upgrades affect the broodling's nibble damage.
The broodlord's damage is unavoidable while the broodling's damage is avoidable by killing it early or just running away from the unit.
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On October 30 2011 13:59 Warble wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:43 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On October 30 2011 11:40 Campyy wrote:
i wish zerg would get 1 set of upgrades instead of seperate upgrades for melee and ranged It does seem quite silly o.O... i mean, broodlings... don't they get melee damage upgrades? even though they use air damage? I guess blizzard just looked for a logical way to separate zerg upgrades (i.e. Terran mech and bio == zerg ranged and melee) ?? i do like the universal ground armor upgrade when i play zerg, i usually emphasize ranged upgrades and armor... but there is a reason i am in gold, and that could be it. Broodlings don't use air damage. The broodlord launches the broodling at the target. On impact it does 20 damage, modified by air upgrades. The action is done by the broodlord and the broodling is merely a projectile. The broodling then becomes a unit and does its own attacks, doing 4 damage, modified by melee upgrades. So air upgrades affect broodlord launch damage while melee upgrades affect the broodling's nibble damage. The broodlord's damage is unavoidable while the broodling's damage is avoidable by killing it early or just running away from the unit.
Thank makes the most sense  now if only the auto turret benefited from air upgrades
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On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it.
Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ?
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I do think snipe is way too good when taking broodlords and ultras in to consideration, perhaps it should have a cooldown.
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On October 31 2011 21:33 Vamp wrote:
I do think snipe is way too good when taking broodlords and ultras in to consideration, perhaps it should have a cooldown.
I know right now, that one of the main reasons that snipe actually works (in terms of ques and burst damage) is its dependance on the "hold fire" command that cancels the ghost's attack and "initiates" the snipe chain... if you implemented a cooldown, then i'm afraid that it would greatly weaken the ghost as a unit, because it would not only prevent the ghost from sniping quickly, but it would cause ghosts to "lose" their attack, unless players spammed hold fire/ weapons hot... which would make snipe use twice as ridiculously hard as it is...
I feel like all the zerg and protoss players only see the result (and power) of snipe... I feel like if most people actually wanted to know how hard it is to use snipe... they should try using forcefield or fungal growth with half the area, and half the cost... Various people have argued against me making snipe "easier" by doubling the damage, doubling the cost, and reducing its overall versatility (blah blah less clicks etc)... but i think that the comparison is fair,
(i mean, for most players, using FFs would be a lot harder if they were half as large, and half the cost...)
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On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ?
Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it.
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On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it.
Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely lethal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say.
Also, i would compare it to defilers in scbw... where Terran players sought to kill defilers OUTSIDE of combat as much as possible because they were such a huge difficulty to deal with once the bullets started flying... even so much that Terran players would sacrifice 100/200 science vessels to kill defilers... often losing science vessels to scourge cheaply in the process.
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On November 01 2011 02:30 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it. Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely leathal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say.
It does take more than just an EMP to kill a toss, but EMP is an instant X (where x is a lot, based on what and how many units you catch) damage. It can vary from 300 to 1k, which is an absurd amount for an ability you just click and use. This coming from a unit with a relatively low cost and does not require an upgrade to use. It's a pretty big DPS isn't it
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On November 01 2011 02:30 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it. Yes, but i dissent because it takes more than just EMP to kill you... i can't spam EMP on top of your zealots and expect them to die (in the same way spamming fungal on marines is completely leathal, or in a lesser extent storm)... EMP can "only do so much"... and I'm not convinced that its as strong as you say.
In all honesty, this argument seems the same as saying Plague isn't strong because it can't kill anything.
In an RTS, you really can't look at abilities or even units in a vacuum.
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is there any video about feedback vs emp on ptr?
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On November 01 2011 02:24 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 17:30 Snowbear wrote:On October 30 2011 11:43 Sosweets wrote:On October 30 2011 06:29 Savern101 wrote:On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:
Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... At least you have the option to do those things. where as emp lands instantly, and protoss can't do anything about it. Yeah, storm and FUNGAL don't hit instantly huh ? Storm does damage over time and you can run out of it. Fungal does damage over time and you can't run out of it, EMP does instant damage and you can't do anything about it.
I honestly hate how fungal, emp, and forcefield work. These abilities do not promote interaction. Get hit and you have to weather the storm. I prefer abilities like the viper's blinding ability which gives the opposition the ability to play around it. Make EMP, fungal, forcefield a projectile which at least gives the opposition a way to play around/interact with it.
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EPT
