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1.4.2 Patch notes PTR - Page 104

Forum Index > SC2 General
2455 CommentsPost a Reply
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Catchafire2000
Profile Joined August 2010
United States227 Posts
October 27 2011 23:47 GMT
#2061
When does this patch come out???
jabooty
gosuMalicE
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada676 Posts
October 27 2011 23:48 GMT
#2062
On October 28 2011 05:50 Arnstein wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2011 05:36 ToguRo wrote:
On October 28 2011 03:26 XerrolAvengerII wrote:
I feel like if EMP is getting nerfed, than snipe needs some kind of buff... 45 damage per shot is really apm intensive in order to use effectivly, i'm high gold / low plat terran and i can't use Snipe worth shit if i want to keep my army alive with traditional terran micro (... i almost wish snipe was double energy, double damage... something like 50 energy for 105 damage or so...

Also, yamato cannon is 33% more efficient than snipe, however snipe can be used on less targets, and takes more actions to output similar damage... consider that yamato takes 3 seconds to charge, and yet the cooldown between "snipes" makes it nearly 3 seconds worth of micro and clicking to deal less than half the damage... TT

(and yet yamato cannon does not stop the battle cruiser from being one of the more underpowered / underused units in the game, but blizzard is happy to see colossus in every game but wants to make sure that the battle cruiser is not used in similar frequency... anyone else remember when the kim/browder dark archon said that when they increased BC move speed to match carriers?)

Ah well, i knew that protoss shields needed a buff because it wasn't always worth it, i don't know if late game protoss damage needed a buff though, maybe to protoss air weapons / air armor, but i dont think colossus thermal lances should scale cheaper ;( TT

(tbh, i almost never used ghosts in TvP, because they seemed very wasteful of precious resources, after all, dealing 100 damage sounds great on paper, but when the damage caps at 50 vs zealots, 80 vs stalkers, and 100 for colossus, it seemed like it was easy to "miss" shielded units and become inefficient...

However, it is still very surprising to me... are ghosts "that" amazing in TvZ to warrant such a nerf?

Ah well, i can live with this much happier than HotS changes must enjoy while it lasts!


Im sorry but Snipe is incredibly strong.... if it got buffed MVP would never lose a game against Zerg .... why are you sniping instead of EMPing agaisnt Protoss anyway ?

Edit: you asked if snipe was really that incredible versus Zerg here is an example



If the new ultralisk burrow-thingy outranges snipe, this will cancel out though.

If ultralisk blink has 10 range I'm going back to BW.
I play Protoss, because lets face it, who doesn't love hyper-advanced Egyptian ninja-aliens that kill people with lightsabres attached to both arms?
The Final Boss
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1839 Posts
October 28 2011 00:21 GMT
#2063
On October 28 2011 06:05 jinorazi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2011 05:29 The Final Boss wrote:
On October 27 2011 12:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 27 2011 10:53 The Final Boss wrote:
On October 27 2011 07:48 iamke55 wrote:
On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.

Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.

Thank you.

Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game?

I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying.

But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win.

Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.


1. The game isn't far off balance across the board, but we still see at the top level a large TvP imbalance. A month or two ago, TvP was 70% win ratio. Code S is mostly Terrans and almost no Protosses.

2. Cheese is part of the game. That's fine. Standard is fine too. I've seen Terrans do cheese just as often as Protoss. But then again, you think that 4gate is cheese (it's definitely not).

If 4 Gate isn't cheese, does that mean that 1-1-1 isn't cheese? 4 Gate most certainly is cheese, as if the Terran player scouts it, they'll most likely hold it off, and then the Protoss will be so far behind that there is no way for them to win. What about 6 pool or Baneling Bust? Just because 4 Gate doesn't involve pulling all your Probes doesn't mean that it isn't cheese (also, just out of curiosity, what do you consider cheese?).

And I'm assuming that when you say that TvP had a 70% win rate you're only referring to GSL, maybe only Code S? Outside of Code S Protoss is dominating: look at Code A qualifiers, ESV TV Weekly, and most of the foreign tournaments that aren't won by Koreans. It's pretty remarkable how well Protoss has been doing, they're losing in Code S because they're playing badly, not because of imbalance. The proper fix is not to "balance" the game, it's to just give it time.

And also I was just sort of retorting some statement about a Terran player only knowing how to cheese or something like that. I just hate TvP and I know I'm not alone. It's not fun, so it really defeats the purpose of me playing it.


regarding cheese, 4gate isn't cheese.

cheese: proxy gate, proxy rax, cannon rush, 6pool, etc.
cheese is a build to end the game as soon as possible.

if 4gate is cheese, banshee rush is cheese, dt rush is cheese, anything would be qualified as cheese.

From Liquipedia:
Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent.

Nothing in that definition claims that a cheese has to be early game focused. It's just a strategy that your opponent will never expect, that is a cheesy strategy. Usually, however, because of extra scans, overlords, and observers the later the game goes, the harder it is to hide something from your opponent. It's also not something that your opponent should scout or should know is coming (such as Broodlords late game vT), but if you go for CC first vs Zerg, that is an economical cheese. It's a strategy that the Zerg most likely will not expect. If you go for 1 Rax Expo ->4 Rax Gasless Timing vP, that is a cheese. Neither of those builds look to end the game, just to put you further ahead. 4 Gate is EXTREMELY cheesy. If a Terran or Zerg knows a 4 Gate is coming, they'll hold it every time. It's the fact that it's a surprise attack that makes it so difficult to hold. Same thing with 1-1-1 or 3 Rax all-in.
Vehemus
Profile Joined November 2010
United States586 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-28 00:30:01
October 28 2011 00:28 GMT
#2064
On October 28 2011 09:21 The Final Boss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2011 06:05 jinorazi wrote:
On October 28 2011 05:29 The Final Boss wrote:
On October 27 2011 12:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 27 2011 10:53 The Final Boss wrote:
On October 27 2011 07:48 iamke55 wrote:
On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.

Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.

Thank you.

Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game?

I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying.

But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win.

Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.


1. The game isn't far off balance across the board, but we still see at the top level a large TvP imbalance. A month or two ago, TvP was 70% win ratio. Code S is mostly Terrans and almost no Protosses.

2. Cheese is part of the game. That's fine. Standard is fine too. I've seen Terrans do cheese just as often as Protoss. But then again, you think that 4gate is cheese (it's definitely not).

If 4 Gate isn't cheese, does that mean that 1-1-1 isn't cheese? 4 Gate most certainly is cheese, as if the Terran player scouts it, they'll most likely hold it off, and then the Protoss will be so far behind that there is no way for them to win. What about 6 pool or Baneling Bust? Just because 4 Gate doesn't involve pulling all your Probes doesn't mean that it isn't cheese (also, just out of curiosity, what do you consider cheese?).

And I'm assuming that when you say that TvP had a 70% win rate you're only referring to GSL, maybe only Code S? Outside of Code S Protoss is dominating: look at Code A qualifiers, ESV TV Weekly, and most of the foreign tournaments that aren't won by Koreans. It's pretty remarkable how well Protoss has been doing, they're losing in Code S because they're playing badly, not because of imbalance. The proper fix is not to "balance" the game, it's to just give it time.

And also I was just sort of retorting some statement about a Terran player only knowing how to cheese or something like that. I just hate TvP and I know I'm not alone. It's not fun, so it really defeats the purpose of me playing it.


regarding cheese, 4gate isn't cheese.

cheese: proxy gate, proxy rax, cannon rush, 6pool, etc.
cheese is a build to end the game as soon as possible.

if 4gate is cheese, banshee rush is cheese, dt rush is cheese, anything would be qualified as cheese.

From Liquipedia:
Show nested quote +
Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent.

Nothing in that definition claims that a cheese has to be early game focused. It's just a strategy that your opponent will never expect, that is a cheesy strategy. Usually, however, because of extra scans, overlords, and observers the later the game goes, the harder it is to hide something from your opponent. It's also not something that your opponent should scout or should know is coming (such as Broodlords late game vT), but if you go for CC first vs Zerg, that is an economical cheese. It's a strategy that the Zerg most likely will not expect. If you go for 1 Rax Expo ->4 Rax Gasless Timing vP, that is a cheese. Neither of those builds look to end the game, just to put you further ahead. 4 Gate is EXTREMELY cheesy. If a Terran or Zerg knows a 4 Gate is coming, they'll hold it every time. It's the fact that it's a surprise attack that makes it so difficult to hold. Same thing with 1-1-1 or 3 Rax all-in.


CC first isn't cheese, especially if you used scouting information to determine they pooled late or went hatch first. Going two hidden command centers in the early game, which you absolutely cannot hold if they are scouted, could be considered cheese. It's very unlikely to work, however, and relies on terrible scouting and no form of attack, so it's less likely to actually be called "cheese".
This space for rent.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
October 28 2011 01:26 GMT
#2065
On October 27 2011 23:40 Rannasha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 23:12 Kabras wrote:
It's not just about this particular patch, most of the previous ones as well.. T constantly gets nerfed while P gets buffed and Z gets ignored. The only nerfs toss got were the amulet and the -1 decrease in the pylon radius. The only real buff zerg got was the infestor, which is pretty good but still... not to mention Terran who got what, battlecruiser speed? LOL, compare that to chargelots upgrade, Archons getting range upgrade and promoted to massive unit, warp prism, etc.. throw in all the T nerfs and it's a no brainer. If Terran still wins a lot, it's because it's because it is the most used race. Also most of the top korean guys play T.


You should probably stop cherrypicking things to prove your point.

"The only nerfs toss got were the amulet and the -1 decrease in the pylon radius"
And Flux Veins removal, reduced vision on ramps (this one is bigger than the Pylon radius change), warpgate research time increased, Blink research time increased, Archon toilet nerfed.

"The only real buff zerg got was the infestor,"
Roach range increase was pretty big. Spore crawler root-time decrease made dealing with Stargate openings easier. Ultralisk build time reduction, while not major, is somewhat useful. Corruptors losing their energy bar made them less fragile against T.

Reduced vision on ramps is a protoss nerf? To me it's a buff to "everything that's not a 4-gate in PvP" and barely impacts any other matchup. Other races don't block their ramp the same way as protoss - the ramp vision change it doesn't change warping units up-ramp against them the same way as it does in PVP with a FF at the bottom of the ramp.
vJehoelv
Profile Joined June 2011
United States103 Posts
October 28 2011 01:29 GMT
#2066
Im all for cheaper upgrades but Im biased because I loves me some toss above the other races.
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
October 28 2011 01:35 GMT
#2067
Reduced vision on ramps is a protoss nerf? To me it's a buff to "everything that's not a 4-gate in PvP" and barely impacts any other matchup. Other races don't block their ramp the same way as protoss - the ramp vision change it doesn't change warping units up-ramp against them the same way as it does in PVP with a FF at the bottom of the ramp.


I generally agree. But I do want to point, as I never see it mentioned, that sentries on the low ground are slightly harder to micro when you want to FF your opponents ramp (to keep units from coming down. More accurately, I've had to adjust my sentry micro. If you tell the sentry to FF the middle of the ramp, they have to move so close to the ramp that they are more threatened by units at the top. So yea, I would call this a slight nerf in non PvP MUs. However, it is a nerd that is remedied by re=learning FF placement and targeting the bottom of the ramp.
Mercurial#1193
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
October 28 2011 02:08 GMT
#2068
Hm seems like this will help pvt alot for upgrades and less emp which is good ^^
When I think of something else, something will go here
XerrolAvengerII
Profile Joined January 2010
United States510 Posts
October 28 2011 03:06 GMT
#2069
Its not so much that I am denying that snipe is clearly an ability tailered against zerg since, it indescriminantly targets biologicals, but even so its energy inefficiency coupled with its clumsy usage makes it an ability that ONLY the top of the skill tree is capable of using.

All I ask, is for something simple like making snipe 90 damage for 50 energy shouldn't actually be considered a thing of balance, as that would simply enable players of lower expertise to utilise the "possibilities" of the race... not to mention, in terms of resources and damage to energy efficiency, it would be identical.

I find it fascinating how most people want to include "difficulty of the ability / capability" in factoring balance, when balance should be a measure of realistic potential between races... yes IMMVP has the capability to macro perfectly and efficiently cast snipes from an army of 17 ghosts, but that is a trait that only 1% or less of the SC community is capable of doing. I hardly think that 1% of players being able to use a feature of a race qualifies that feature to be a valueable asset to the race.

I mean, if you consider "potential" in and of itself, there are various videos of AI's microing zerglings against tanks, or marines against banelings... can we consider these "potentials" in balance?
Hey! Hey! Can I interest you in some fruit? Would you like a Banana!?...
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
October 28 2011 05:13 GMT
#2070
On October 28 2011 12:06 XerrolAvengerII wrote:
Its not so much that I am denying that snipe is clearly an ability tailered against zerg since, it indescriminantly targets biologicals, but even so its energy inefficiency coupled with its clumsy usage makes it an ability that ONLY the top of the skill tree is capable of using.

All I ask, is for something simple like making snipe 90 damage for 50 energy shouldn't actually be considered a thing of balance, as that would simply enable players of lower expertise to utilise the "possibilities" of the race... not to mention, in terms of resources and damage to energy efficiency, it would be identical.

I find it fascinating how most people want to include "difficulty of the ability / capability" in factoring balance, when balance should be a measure of realistic potential between races... yes IMMVP has the capability to macro perfectly and efficiently cast snipes from an army of 17 ghosts, but that is a trait that only 1% or less of the SC community is capable of doing. I hardly think that 1% of players being able to use a feature of a race qualifies that feature to be a valueable asset to the race.

I mean, if you consider "potential" in and of itself, there are various videos of AI's microing zerglings against tanks, or marines against banelings... can we consider these "potentials" in balance?

a major issue with 90 damage for 50 energy, is that it then allows T to use 1 action to kill 1 unit instantly with no counter. 45 allows T to kill 1 unit in 2 actions, OR damage 2 units greatly with 2 actions or just kill 1 weak unit with 1 action. there is less overkill, less waste, more strategy, and more depth to having it be less energy + damage. if your issue is you cannot snipe effectively, we should not be changing the ability so you can do it better, you should just get better at it instead.
ChuCky.Ca
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada2497 Posts
October 28 2011 05:15 GMT
#2071
On October 28 2011 08:47 Catchafire2000 wrote:
When does this patch come out???

When they think It's Balanced in the PTR
Most Skilled Current esport Games Scbw>Sc2>Cs1.6>Dota2>Hon>Loopin Louie The Drinking Game>LoL
BlissX1
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States328 Posts
October 29 2011 17:18 GMT
#2072
I Think that instead of reducing emp radius, it should be like emp takes away X energy every second.. like 10 or 15 per second for how ever many seconds. That way it keeps its power against protoss and zerg, but makes it less of a nuke thing to make the protoss army useless.
XtremeOneZ 4 Life Bliss[x.1]
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
October 29 2011 17:20 GMT
#2073
On October 28 2011 08:47 Catchafire2000 wrote:
When does this patch come out???

David Kim said back during Blizzcon that it was targeted at early November, but things can always come up.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
October 29 2011 17:22 GMT
#2074
i think people are underestimating the general effectiveness of emp vs infestors. there was a tvz on antiga shipyard at mlg orlando where one emp neutralized 6-7 infestors with one shot. I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if blizzard saw this one play and acted on it because it really was kind of eye-opening.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
October 29 2011 18:59 GMT
#2075
On October 30 2011 02:22 JiYan wrote:
i think people are underestimating the general effectiveness of emp vs infestors. there was a tvz on antiga shipyard at mlg orlando where one emp neutralized 6-7 infestors with one shot. I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if blizzard saw this one play and acted on it because it really was kind of eye-opening.


Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Eventine
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States307 Posts
October 29 2011 21:21 GMT
#2076
On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:

Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly.


I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here).

Definitely second that snipe thing...
You are everything, I never knew, I always wanted.
Savern101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom859 Posts
October 29 2011 21:29 GMT
#2077
On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:

Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly.


I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here).

Definitely second that snipe thing...


Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously...
EG.DeMusliM/d.BlinG/UK Fighting!
Giga
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United Kingdom114 Posts
October 29 2011 21:29 GMT
#2078
I think it's kind of stupid giving cheaper upgrades for Protoss.

What's the reasoning behind it? So I can have 15 extra minerals now?! WooHoo!!

Not only will the upgrades match zerg and terran I think? Shields gives the upgrade to buildings air and ground. Adding on this they can double the speed of the upgrade for chrono, this just allows protoss to get 3-3 that much easier and if going for a timing attack it's so deadly and it seems like an un-needed 'out of no where' change.
은하
NOTjak
Profile Joined October 2011
United States25 Posts
October 29 2011 21:32 GMT
#2079
they already nerf'd fg to the point where you need to chain them 12 times to kill anything. Killing it's radius would just completely convince people to never make infestors again.
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
October 29 2011 21:33 GMT
#2080
On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote:

Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly.


I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here).

Definitely second that snipe thing...


I think that terran is the most micro-intensive race. You can't just 1a your army. You need to split alot vs storm, fungal and banelings.

Basicly terran has to split, emp and snipe (vs zerg) at the same time ...
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