EPT1.4.2 Patch notes PTR - Page 104
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Catchafire2000
United States227 Posts
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gosuMalicE
Canada676 Posts
On October 28 2011 05:50 Arnstein wrote: If the new ultralisk burrow-thingy outranges snipe, this will cancel out though. If ultralisk blink has 10 range I'm going back to BW. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:05 jinorazi wrote: regarding cheese, 4gate isn't cheese. cheese: proxy gate, proxy rax, cannon rush, 6pool, etc. cheese is a build to end the game as soon as possible. if 4gate is cheese, banshee rush is cheese, dt rush is cheese, anything would be qualified as cheese. From Liquipedia: Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Nothing in that definition claims that a cheese has to be early game focused. It's just a strategy that your opponent will never expect, that is a cheesy strategy. Usually, however, because of extra scans, overlords, and observers the later the game goes, the harder it is to hide something from your opponent. It's also not something that your opponent should scout or should know is coming (such as Broodlords late game vT), but if you go for CC first vs Zerg, that is an economical cheese. It's a strategy that the Zerg most likely will not expect. If you go for 1 Rax Expo ->4 Rax Gasless Timing vP, that is a cheese. Neither of those builds look to end the game, just to put you further ahead. 4 Gate is EXTREMELY cheesy. If a Terran or Zerg knows a 4 Gate is coming, they'll hold it every time. It's the fact that it's a surprise attack that makes it so difficult to hold. Same thing with 1-1-1 or 3 Rax all-in. | ||
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Vehemus
United States586 Posts
On October 28 2011 09:21 The Final Boss wrote: From Liquipedia: Nothing in that definition claims that a cheese has to be early game focused. It's just a strategy that your opponent will never expect, that is a cheesy strategy. Usually, however, because of extra scans, overlords, and observers the later the game goes, the harder it is to hide something from your opponent. It's also not something that your opponent should scout or should know is coming (such as Broodlords late game vT), but if you go for CC first vs Zerg, that is an economical cheese. It's a strategy that the Zerg most likely will not expect. If you go for 1 Rax Expo ->4 Rax Gasless Timing vP, that is a cheese. Neither of those builds look to end the game, just to put you further ahead. 4 Gate is EXTREMELY cheesy. If a Terran or Zerg knows a 4 Gate is coming, they'll hold it every time. It's the fact that it's a surprise attack that makes it so difficult to hold. Same thing with 1-1-1 or 3 Rax all-in. CC first isn't cheese, especially if you used scouting information to determine they pooled late or went hatch first. Going two hidden command centers in the early game, which you absolutely cannot hold if they are scouted, could be considered cheese. It's very unlikely to work, however, and relies on terrible scouting and no form of attack, so it's less likely to actually be called "cheese". | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On October 27 2011 23:40 Rannasha wrote: You should probably stop cherrypicking things to prove your point. "The only nerfs toss got were the amulet and the -1 decrease in the pylon radius" And Flux Veins removal, reduced vision on ramps (this one is bigger than the Pylon radius change), warpgate research time increased, Blink research time increased, Archon toilet nerfed. "The only real buff zerg got was the infestor," Roach range increase was pretty big. Spore crawler root-time decrease made dealing with Stargate openings easier. Ultralisk build time reduction, while not major, is somewhat useful. Corruptors losing their energy bar made them less fragile against T. Reduced vision on ramps is a protoss nerf? To me it's a buff to "everything that's not a 4-gate in PvP" and barely impacts any other matchup. Other races don't block their ramp the same way as protoss - the ramp vision change it doesn't change warping units up-ramp against them the same way as it does in PVP with a FF at the bottom of the ramp. | ||
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vJehoelv
United States103 Posts
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
Reduced vision on ramps is a protoss nerf? To me it's a buff to "everything that's not a 4-gate in PvP" and barely impacts any other matchup. Other races don't block their ramp the same way as protoss - the ramp vision change it doesn't change warping units up-ramp against them the same way as it does in PVP with a FF at the bottom of the ramp. I generally agree. But I do want to point, as I never see it mentioned, that sentries on the low ground are slightly harder to micro when you want to FF your opponents ramp (to keep units from coming down. More accurately, I've had to adjust my sentry micro. If you tell the sentry to FF the middle of the ramp, they have to move so close to the ramp that they are more threatened by units at the top. So yea, I would call this a slight nerf in non PvP MUs. However, it is a nerd that is remedied by re=learning FF placement and targeting the bottom of the ramp. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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XerrolAvengerII
United States510 Posts
All I ask, is for something simple like making snipe 90 damage for 50 energy shouldn't actually be considered a thing of balance, as that would simply enable players of lower expertise to utilise the "possibilities" of the race... not to mention, in terms of resources and damage to energy efficiency, it would be identical. I find it fascinating how most people want to include "difficulty of the ability / capability" in factoring balance, when balance should be a measure of realistic potential between races... yes IMMVP has the capability to macro perfectly and efficiently cast snipes from an army of 17 ghosts, but that is a trait that only 1% or less of the SC community is capable of doing. I hardly think that 1% of players being able to use a feature of a race qualifies that feature to be a valueable asset to the race. I mean, if you consider "potential" in and of itself, there are various videos of AI's microing zerglings against tanks, or marines against banelings... can we consider these "potentials" in balance? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 28 2011 12:06 XerrolAvengerII wrote: Its not so much that I am denying that snipe is clearly an ability tailered against zerg since, it indescriminantly targets biologicals, but even so its energy inefficiency coupled with its clumsy usage makes it an ability that ONLY the top of the skill tree is capable of using. All I ask, is for something simple like making snipe 90 damage for 50 energy shouldn't actually be considered a thing of balance, as that would simply enable players of lower expertise to utilise the "possibilities" of the race... not to mention, in terms of resources and damage to energy efficiency, it would be identical. I find it fascinating how most people want to include "difficulty of the ability / capability" in factoring balance, when balance should be a measure of realistic potential between races... yes IMMVP has the capability to macro perfectly and efficiently cast snipes from an army of 17 ghosts, but that is a trait that only 1% or less of the SC community is capable of doing. I hardly think that 1% of players being able to use a feature of a race qualifies that feature to be a valueable asset to the race. I mean, if you consider "potential" in and of itself, there are various videos of AI's microing zerglings against tanks, or marines against banelings... can we consider these "potentials" in balance? a major issue with 90 damage for 50 energy, is that it then allows T to use 1 action to kill 1 unit instantly with no counter. 45 allows T to kill 1 unit in 2 actions, OR damage 2 units greatly with 2 actions or just kill 1 weak unit with 1 action. there is less overkill, less waste, more strategy, and more depth to having it be less energy + damage. if your issue is you cannot snipe effectively, we should not be changing the ability so you can do it better, you should just get better at it instead. | ||
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ChuCky.Ca
Canada2497 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:47 Catchafire2000 wrote: When does this patch come out??? When they think It's Balanced in the PTR | ||
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BlissX1
United States328 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:47 Catchafire2000 wrote: When does this patch come out??? David Kim said back during Blizzcon that it was targeted at early November, but things can always come up. | ||
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 30 2011 02:22 JiYan wrote: i think people are underestimating the general effectiveness of emp vs infestors. there was a tvz on antiga shipyard at mlg orlando where one emp neutralized 6-7 infestors with one shot. I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if blizzard saw this one play and acted on it because it really was kind of eye-opening. Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. | ||
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Eventine
United States307 Posts
On October 30 2011 03:59 blade55555 wrote: Yes but to be honest zergs can just spread their infestors out when they know ghosts are on the field (I do this most of the time). EMP isn't an issue really in tvz, tvp It is I believe but tvz its snipe thats the issue honestly. I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... | ||
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Savern101
United Kingdom859 Posts
On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote: I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... Yes Terrans certainly never have to worry about splitting/spreading units vs FG, storm and... oh yeah BANELINGS. Seriously... | ||
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Giga
United Kingdom114 Posts
What's the reasoning behind it? So I can have 15 extra minerals now?! WooHoo!! Not only will the upgrades match zerg and terran I think? Shields gives the upgrade to buildings air and ground. Adding on this they can double the speed of the upgrade for chrono, this just allows protoss to get 3-3 that much easier and if going for a timing attack it's so deadly and it seems like an un-needed 'out of no where' change. | ||
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NOTjak
United States25 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On October 30 2011 06:21 Eventine wrote: I thnk you're right that zergs/protoss should do a beter job of spreading out and limiting the impact of EMP. However, it's far more difficult to keep that spread as armies move and is much more micro intensive than the using a ghost to EMP. It seems that terran does not have to worry as much about spreading units as compared to the other two races (opinion here). Definitely second that snipe thing... I think that terran is the most micro-intensive race. You can't just 1a your army. You need to split alot vs storm, fungal and banelings. Basicly terran has to split, emp and snipe (vs zerg) at the same time ... | ||
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(... i almost wish snipe was double energy, double damage... something like 50 energy for 105 damage or so...
must enjoy while it lasts!
