On October 28 2011 03:26 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I feel like if EMP is getting nerfed, than snipe needs some kind of buff... 45 damage per shot is really apm intensive in order to use effectivly, i'm high gold / low plat terran and i can't use Snipe worth shit if i want to keep my army alive with traditional terran micro (... i almost wish snipe was double energy, double damage... something like 50 energy for 105 damage or so...
Also, yamato cannon is 33% more efficient than snipe, however snipe can be used on less targets, and takes more actions to output similar damage... consider that yamato takes 3 seconds to charge, and yet the cooldown between "snipes" makes it nearly 3 seconds worth of micro and clicking to deal less than half the damage... TT
(and yet yamato cannon does not stop the battle cruiser from being one of the more underpowered / underused units in the game, but blizzard is happy to see colossus in every game but wants to make sure that the battle cruiser is not used in similar frequency... anyone else remember when the kim/browder dark archon said that when they increased BC move speed to match carriers?)
Ah well, i knew that protoss shields needed a buff because it wasn't always worth it, i don't know if late game protoss damage needed a buff though, maybe to protoss air weapons / air armor, but i dont think colossus thermal lances should scale cheaper ;( TT
(tbh, i almost never used ghosts in TvP, because they seemed very wasteful of precious resources, after all, dealing 100 damage sounds great on paper, but when the damage caps at 50 vs zealots, 80 vs stalkers, and 100 for colossus, it seemed like it was easy to "miss" shielded units and become inefficient...
However, it is still very surprising to me... are ghosts "that" amazing in TvZ to warrant such a nerf?
Ah well, i can live with this much happier than HotS changes must enjoy while it lasts!
Im sorry but Snipe is incredibly strong.... if it got buffed MVP would never lose a game against Zerg .... why are you sniping instead of EMPing agaisnt Protoss anyway ?
Edit: you asked if snipe was really that incredible versus Zerg here is an example
On October 28 2011 02:29 schnizzle wrote: every single comment is about gateway units being weak, and cheaper upgrades being absolutely necessary in PvT because their the bane of protoss
are you sure we're playing the same game TL community?
emp i can get onboard with, they can still be plenty effective with 1.5 range with half decent aiming, just implys we need a little more skill to use it but why the cheaper upgrades? i haven't seen any evidence to suggest that a protoss army is inherently weaker than a zerg or terran army before you implement ghosts or infestors, and how exactly are upgrades supposed to help defend against those?
your obviously ignorant of the game. It is commonly accepted that pure gateway army is not very strong as tech goes up. It requires charge/blink, a good sentry count, and archons/HT to be viable. Storms are what make gateway army work.
Everything you listed would fall into the category of a Gateway army. Just because it's not pure, unupgraded Stalker/Zealot doesn't mean that it isn't a Gateway army. Sentries: Built from Gateway. HT: Built from Gateway. Archon: Morph HTs or DTs, both built at Gateway. If a Terran player goes "Bio," they'll probably have Ghosts, Medivacs, Vikings, but since the majority of their army is bio and they don't have any Mech, then it will be considered bio. Of course, what constitutes "bio" in TvP is completely different than "bio" in TvT. And Pure Gateway armies are exceedingly strong, especially once you add in High Templar. Go watch Adelscott.
On October 28 2011 03:26 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I feel like if EMP is getting nerfed, than snipe needs some kind of buff... 45 damage per shot is really apm intensive in order to use effectivly, i'm high gold / low plat terran and i can't use Snipe worth shit if i want to keep my army alive with traditional terran micro (... i almost wish snipe was double energy, double damage... something like 50 energy for 105 damage or so...
Also, yamato cannon is 33% more efficient than snipe, however snipe can be used on less targets, and takes more actions to output similar damage... consider that yamato takes 3 seconds to charge, and yet the cooldown between "snipes" makes it nearly 3 seconds worth of micro and clicking to deal less than half the damage... TT
(and yet yamato cannon does not stop the battle cruiser from being one of the more underpowered / underused units in the game, but blizzard is happy to see colossus in every game but wants to make sure that the battle cruiser is not used in similar frequency... anyone else remember when the kim/browder dark archon said that when they increased BC move speed to match carriers?)
Ah well, i knew that protoss shields needed a buff because it wasn't always worth it, i don't know if late game protoss damage needed a buff though, maybe to protoss air weapons / air armor, but i dont think colossus thermal lances should scale cheaper ;( TT
(tbh, i almost never used ghosts in TvP, because they seemed very wasteful of precious resources, after all, dealing 100 damage sounds great on paper, but when the damage caps at 50 vs zealots, 80 vs stalkers, and 100 for colossus, it seemed like it was easy to "miss" shielded units and become inefficient...
However, it is still very surprising to me... are ghosts "that" amazing in TvZ to warrant such a nerf?
Ah well, i can live with this much happier than HotS changes must enjoy while it lasts!
All I read was that snipe needs a buff. You have no idea how much more broken lategame TvZ would be. You're in gold, the game should never be balanced around your disability to snipe.
Ever seen Mvp lategame? Yeah, let's make that better.
[B]If Terran misses a single High Templar with EMP (which can be reliably accomplished if the P has better control than the Terran) and the Protoss lands one of two good storms, it can completely cost the Terran the battle. Storm is much more devastating to a Terran army even if you only land one of two good storms on the bulk of their army.
Well, I'd like to feel like storm was actually a part of the game, by getting one off now and then. It is a spell that is SUPPOSED to destroy your army and given the weakness of toss gateway armies (especially against stim kiting), I need to use some type of AOE.
There was a sweet period, right after the archon range buff, where Terran weren't making mass ghosts. Not only was chargelot-archon fun to play, but I would research storm and use it with some success. Now, I've gone back to colossus because of mass ghosts and blanket EMPs. Storm is such a risky investment in PvT. It's a shame because I like it so much more than colossus-death-ray.
It's not risky if you try it out with Warp Prism drops. I played a friend of mine (who's a lot higher ranked than me) the other day who utilized that and I had no way of EMPing his HTs. It was ridiculously strong.
On October 28 2011 03:26 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I feel like if EMP is getting nerfed, than snipe needs some kind of buff... 45 damage per shot is really apm intensive in order to use effectivly, i'm high gold / low plat terran and i can't use Snipe worth shit if i want to keep my army alive with traditional terran micro (... i almost wish snipe was double energy, double damage... something like 50 energy for 105 damage or so...
Also, yamato cannon is 33% more efficient than snipe, however snipe can be used on less targets, and takes more actions to output similar damage... consider that yamato takes 3 seconds to charge, and yet the cooldown between "snipes" makes it nearly 3 seconds worth of micro and clicking to deal less than half the damage... TT
(and yet yamato cannon does not stop the battle cruiser from being one of the more underpowered / underused units in the game, but blizzard is happy to see colossus in every game but wants to make sure that the battle cruiser is not used in similar frequency... anyone else remember when the kim/browder dark archon said that when they increased BC move speed to match carriers?)
Ah well, i knew that protoss shields needed a buff because it wasn't always worth it, i don't know if late game protoss damage needed a buff though, maybe to protoss air weapons / air armor, but i dont think colossus thermal lances should scale cheaper ;( TT
(tbh, i almost never used ghosts in TvP, because they seemed very wasteful of precious resources, after all, dealing 100 damage sounds great on paper, but when the damage caps at 50 vs zealots, 80 vs stalkers, and 100 for colossus, it seemed like it was easy to "miss" shielded units and become inefficient...
However, it is still very surprising to me... are ghosts "that" amazing in TvZ to warrant such a nerf?
Ah well, i can live with this much happier than HotS changes must enjoy while it lasts!
Im sorry but Snipe is incredibly strong.... if it got buffed MVP would never lose a game against Zerg .... why are you sniping instead of EMPing agaisnt Protoss anyway ?
Edit: you asked if snipe was really that incredible versus Zerg here is an example
Blizzard is heading in the right direction by decreasing the EMP diameter but from what I've seen from the PTR, they need to make it smaller. Even if the EMP's most outer edge hits a protoss unit, up to 100 health is lost instantly, and the size of the diameter is still too big.
On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote: Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you.
Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game?
I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying.
But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win.
Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.
1. The game isn't far off balance across the board, but we still see at the top level a large TvP imbalance. A month or two ago, TvP was 70% win ratio. Code S is mostly Terrans and almost no Protosses.
2. Cheese is part of the game. That's fine. Standard is fine too. I've seen Terrans do cheese just as often as Protoss. But then again, you think that 4gate is cheese (it's definitely not).
If 4 Gate isn't cheese, does that mean that 1-1-1 isn't cheese? 4 Gate most certainly is cheese, as if the Terran player scouts it, they'll most likely hold it off, and then the Protoss will be so far behind that there is no way for them to win. What about 6 pool or Baneling Bust? Just because 4 Gate doesn't involve pulling all your Probes doesn't mean that it isn't cheese (also, just out of curiosity, what do you consider cheese?).
And I'm assuming that when you say that TvP had a 70% win rate you're only referring to GSL, maybe only Code S? Outside of Code S Protoss is dominating: look at Code A qualifiers, ESV TV Weekly, and most of the foreign tournaments that aren't won by Koreans. It's pretty remarkable how well Protoss has been doing, they're losing in Code S because they're playing badly, not because of imbalance. The proper fix is not to "balance" the game, it's to just give it time.
And also I was just sort of retorting some statement about a Terran player only knowing how to cheese or something like that. I just hate TvP and I know I'm not alone. It's not fun, so it really defeats the purpose of me playing it.
regarding cheese, 4gate isn't cheese.
cheese: proxy gate, proxy rax, cannon rush, 6pool, etc. cheese is a build to end the game as soon as possible.
if 4gate is cheese, banshee rush is cheese, dt rush is cheese, anything would be qualified as cheese.
On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote: Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you.
Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game?
I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying.
But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win.
Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.
1. The game isn't far off balance across the board, but we still see at the top level a large TvP imbalance. A month or two ago, TvP was 70% win ratio. Code S is mostly Terrans and almost no Protosses.
2. Cheese is part of the game. That's fine. Standard is fine too. I've seen Terrans do cheese just as often as Protoss. But then again, you think that 4gate is cheese (it's definitely not).
If 4 Gate isn't cheese, does that mean that 1-1-1 isn't cheese? 4 Gate most certainly is cheese, as if the Terran player scouts it, they'll most likely hold it off, and then the Protoss will be so far behind that there is no way for them to win. What about 6 pool or Baneling Bust? Just because 4 Gate doesn't involve pulling all your Probes doesn't mean that it isn't cheese (also, just out of curiosity, what do you consider cheese?).
And I'm assuming that when you say that TvP had a 70% win rate you're only referring to GSL, maybe only Code S? Outside of Code S Protoss is dominating: look at Code A qualifiers, ESV TV Weekly, and most of the foreign tournaments that aren't won by Koreans. It's pretty remarkable how well Protoss has been doing, they're losing in Code S because they're playing badly, not because of imbalance. The proper fix is not to "balance" the game, it's to just give it time.
And also I was just sort of retorting some statement about a Terran player only knowing how to cheese or something like that. I just hate TvP and I know I'm not alone. It's not fun, so it really defeats the purpose of me playing it.
regarding cheese, 4gate isn't cheese.
cheese: proxy gate, proxy rax, cannon rush, 6pool, etc. cheese is a build to end the game as soon as possible.
if 4gate is cheese, banshee rush is cheese, dt rush is cheese, anything would be qualified as cheese.
regarding cheese :
rush is a build to end the game as soon as possible
cheese is a strategy that focuses on suprising your opponent with having the characteristic of when it is hold, the cheeser will lose most of the time.
banshees, dt openings etc have nice follow-ups so, when they are hold, the game isn't necessarily over.
summary: your descriptions were wrong, but you were right by saying dt's and banshees are not cheese.
[B]If Terran misses a single High Templar with EMP (which can be reliably accomplished if the P has better control than the Terran) and the Protoss lands one of two good storms, it can completely cost the Terran the battle. Storm is much more devastating to a Terran army even if you only land one of two good storms on the bulk of their army.
Well, I'd like to feel like storm was actually a part of the game, by getting one off now and then. It is a spell that is SUPPOSED to destroy your army and given the weakness of toss gateway armies (especially against stim kiting), I need to use some type of AOE.
There was a sweet period, right after the archon range buff, where Terran weren't making mass ghosts. Not only was chargelot-archon fun to play, but I would research storm and use it with some success. Now, I've gone back to colossus because of mass ghosts and blanket EMPs. Storm is such a risky investment in PvT. It's a shame because I like it so much more than colossus-death-ray.
It's not risky if you try it out with Warp Prism drops. I played a friend of mine (who's a lot higher ranked than me) the other day who utilized that and I had no way of EMPing his HTs. It was ridiculously strong.
Yes the snipes killed july zergs stuff pretty quick, but he also never directly engaged them, and he didn't bring an overseer when the broodlords were attacking the gold once. He made mistakes too, it wasn't just snipe being very strong...
On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote: Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you.
Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game?
I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying.
But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win.
Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.
1. The game isn't far off balance across the board, but we still see at the top level a large TvP imbalance. A month or two ago, TvP was 70% win ratio. Code S is mostly Terrans and almost no Protosses.
2. Cheese is part of the game. That's fine. Standard is fine too. I've seen Terrans do cheese just as often as Protoss. But then again, you think that 4gate is cheese (it's definitely not).
If 4 Gate isn't cheese, does that mean that 1-1-1 isn't cheese? 4 Gate most certainly is cheese, as if the Terran player scouts it, they'll most likely hold it off, and then the Protoss will be so far behind that there is no way for them to win. What about 6 pool or Baneling Bust? Just because 4 Gate doesn't involve pulling all your Probes doesn't mean that it isn't cheese (also, just out of curiosity, what do you consider cheese?).
And I'm assuming that when you say that TvP had a 70% win rate you're only referring to GSL, maybe only Code S? Outside of Code S Protoss is dominating: look at Code A qualifiers, ESV TV Weekly, and most of the foreign tournaments that aren't won by Koreans. It's pretty remarkable how well Protoss has been doing, they're losing in Code S because they're playing badly, not because of imbalance. The proper fix is not to "balance" the game, it's to just give it time.
And also I was just sort of retorting some statement about a Terran player only knowing how to cheese or something like that. I just hate TvP and I know I'm not alone. It's not fun, so it really defeats the purpose of me playing it.
regarding cheese, 4gate isn't cheese.
cheese: proxy gate, proxy rax, cannon rush, 6pool, etc. cheese is a build to end the game as soon as possible.
if 4gate is cheese, banshee rush is cheese, dt rush is cheese, anything would be qualified as cheese.
regarding cheese :
rush is a build to end the game as soon as possible
cheese is a strategy that focuses on suprising your opponent with having the characteristic of when it is hold, the cheeser will lose most of the time.
if cheese is about "strategies with drawbacks", to paraphrase your description, then what does that leave out?
dt rush, void rush, etc. certainly aren't builds to end the game soon as possible, its rushing to that tech soon as possible.
Yes the snipes killed july zergs stuff pretty quick, but he also never directly engaged them, and he didn't bring an overseer when the broodlords were attacking the gold, twice. He made mistakes too, it wasn't just snipe being very strong...
There are plenty of other games where this has happened though, Ghosts counter everything late game Z- Ultras, Broods, Infestors, with Snipe, snipe, and EMP respectively...the whole point of the Ghost nerf is that they were seen as too strong, nerfing one spell and then buffing the other would run counter to Blizz's purpose.
On October 28 2011 03:26 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I feel like if EMP is getting nerfed, than snipe needs some kind of buff... 45 damage per shot is really apm intensive in order to use effectivly, i'm high gold / low plat terran and i can't use Snipe worth shit if i want to keep my army alive with traditional terran micro (... i almost wish snipe was double energy, double damage... something like 50 energy for 105 damage or so...
Also, yamato cannon is 33% more efficient than snipe, however snipe can be used on less targets, and takes more actions to output similar damage... consider that yamato takes 3 seconds to charge, and yet the cooldown between "snipes" makes it nearly 3 seconds worth of micro and clicking to deal less than half the damage... TT
(and yet yamato cannon does not stop the battle cruiser from being one of the more underpowered / underused units in the game, but blizzard is happy to see colossus in every game but wants to make sure that the battle cruiser is not used in similar frequency... anyone else remember when the kim/browder dark archon said that when they increased BC move speed to match carriers?)
Ah well, i knew that protoss shields needed a buff because it wasn't always worth it, i don't know if late game protoss damage needed a buff though, maybe to protoss air weapons / air armor, but i dont think colossus thermal lances should scale cheaper ;( TT
(tbh, i almost never used ghosts in TvP, because they seemed very wasteful of precious resources, after all, dealing 100 damage sounds great on paper, but when the damage caps at 50 vs zealots, 80 vs stalkers, and 100 for colossus, it seemed like it was easy to "miss" shielded units and become inefficient...
However, it is still very surprising to me... are ghosts "that" amazing in TvZ to warrant such a nerf?
Ah well, i can live with this much happier than HotS changes must enjoy while it lasts!
Im sorry but Snipe is incredibly strong.... if it got buffed MVP would never lose a game against Zerg .... why are you sniping instead of EMPing agaisnt Protoss anyway ?
Edit: you asked if snipe was really that incredible versus Zerg here is an example
If the new ultralisk burrow-thingy outranges snipe, this will cancel out though.
if burrow charge outranged snipe i'm rushing ultralisks in every matchup. because having THAT much range on a hidden charge move for ultralisks is beyond gamebreaking. snipe is about the same range as collosus.
if cheese is about "strategies with drawbacks", to paraphrase your description, then what does that leave out?
dt rush, void rush, etc. certainly aren't builds to end the game soon as possible, its rushing to that tech soon as possible.
"Strategies with drawbacks" is not even close to being a decent paraphrase. It is a terrible understatement in describing these strategies.
All of those strategies are potentially cheese lol. It's not just that they have drawbacks. It's tat they have severe drawbacks that can easily be hard countered by your opponent. A lot of what cheese relies on is surprising your opponent and abusing lack of scouting. 4 gate fits this perfectly. And hard dt/ void ray rushes function in the same way. If your 4 gate doesn't win you the game, in most high level situations it loses you the game. And if the fact that you are 4 gating doesn't come as a surprise to your opponent then he should be able to easily hard counter you.
On October 28 2011 06:27 Rayansaki wrote: Scumbag blizzard: Tries to fix ghosts dominating TvP Makes them even more useless and countered by the unit they are supposed to counter in ZvP
Ghosts are everywhere ! Even in ZvP ... Ahhh silly terran :p
If Terran misses a single High Templar with EMP (which can be reliably accomplished if the P has better control than the Terran) and the Protoss lands one of two good storms, it can completely cost the Terran the battle. Storm is much more devastating to a Terran army even if you only land one of two good storms on the bulk of their army.
Well, I'd like to feel like storm was actually a part of the game, by getting one off now and then. It is a spell that is SUPPOSED to destroy your army and given the weakness of toss gateway armies (especially against stim kiting), I need to use some type of AOE.
There was a sweet period, right after the archon range buff, where Terran weren't making mass ghosts. Not only was chargelot-archon fun to play, but I would research storm and use it with some success. Now, I've gone back to colossus because of mass ghosts and blanket EMPs. Storm is such a risky investment in PvT. It's a shame because I like it so much more than colossus-death-ray.
I completely disagree, almost no one goes collosi vs me and with great success. If you can spread out your HT before a fight, you won't get emps off before storms go off and like was already said 1-2 storms on your army and its totally over, not to mention [b]you can feedback the ghosts. (still not done enough).
That is because it is very hard to do. I mean think about it, the ghost is faster, can cloak, and effectively has more range. Now if the PTR goes live with the EMP radius change I could see Feedback being much more of a viable option.
if cheese is about "strategies with drawbacks", to paraphrase your description, then what does that leave out?
dt rush, void rush, etc. certainly aren't builds to end the game soon as possible, its rushing to that tech soon as possible.
"Strategies with drawbacks" is not even close to being a decent paraphrase. It is a terrible understatement in describing these strategies.
All of those strategies are potentially cheese lol. It's not just that they have drawbacks. It's tat they have severe drawbacks that can easily be hard countered by your opponent. A lot of what cheese relies on is surprising your opponent and abusing lack of scouting. 4 gate fits this perfectly. And hard dt/ void ray rushes function in the same way. If your 4 gate doesn't win you the game, in most high level situations it loses you the game. And if the fact that you are 4 gating doesn't come as a surprise to your opponent then he should be able to easily hard counter you.
hmm while I don't see what that has to do with the patch, I think I can add something to this part :D The problem with this labels like 4gate, dt rush, void rush etc. is more in the most times it is cheese especially in the lower leagues but as higher you get in the leagues you develop backup plans and stuff. For example 4 gate, there is this version with max 21 probes, this is an all-in if you don't make terrible damage you loose, but if you continue to produce workers behind that build up some pressure and build an expo while you are doing that, it is still a 4gate but not a cheese. And then the most common 4gate as known from the PvP is the defensive 4gate, no cheese at all. Other example dt rush, you tech as fast as possible to dts, now if you put all your gas in attacking dts, should be around 3-4, this is an cheese because if your enemy has detection you will probably loose 375-500 gas for nothing -> you will die to the counterattack nearly every time. But if you just send in 1 dt and after you see your enemy has no detection you send 2 more to harass him, thats not an all-in even if has mobile detection you can use your dts for archons which will be still doing pretty good. This means there is no hole in the strategie and therefore it is no cheese. These are only 2 examples why some labels of certain strategies are missleading in terms of cheese.
Back to topic: The EMP nerf was needed for a long time, in my opinion it is one of the reasons, why terran is so dominant in the GSL, it is nothing which will effect the casual player so much. The forge upgrades seems to be more like, "hey you protoss players, there is a shield upgrade maybe you should give it a try". I don't think it is a real buff , because even if you combine every ressource you get more out of these buffs, at 3/3 you only get around 1 stalker. And when is the normal time for 3/3 ? If you are really fast it is the between 15-20 Minutes and you are atleast on 3 base, thats not really a big deal. Still nice but in my opinion they only wanted to promote the shield upgrade and in combination with that they lowered the prices of the other forge upgrades as well.
EPT
(... i almost wish snipe was double energy, double damage... something like 50 energy for 105 damage or so...
must enjoy while it lasts!
