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On October 27 2011 23:40 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 23:12 Kabras wrote:
It's not just about this particular patch, most of the previous ones as well.. T constantly gets nerfed while P gets buffed and Z gets ignored. The only nerfs toss got were the amulet and the -1 decrease in the pylon radius. The only real buff zerg got was the infestor, which is pretty good but still... not to mention Terran who got what, battlecruiser speed? LOL, compare that to chargelots upgrade, Archons getting range upgrade and promoted to massive unit, warp prism, etc.. throw in all the T nerfs and it's a no brainer. If Terran still wins a lot, it's because it's because it is the most used race. Also most of the top korean guys play T. You should probably stop cherrypicking things to prove your point. "The only nerfs toss got were the amulet and the -1 decrease in the pylon radius" And Flux Veins removal, reduced vision on ramps (this one is bigger than the Pylon radius change), warpgate research time increased, Blink research time increased, Archon toilet nerfed. "The only real buff zerg got was the infestor," Roach range increase was pretty big. Spore crawler root-time decrease made dealing with Stargate openings easier. Ultralisk build time reduction, while not major, is somewhat useful. Corruptors losing their energy bar made them less fragile against T.
Spare your energy, no point in trying to argue with a person who is so obviously blinded by his bias.
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On October 27 2011 23:39 GurZtly wrote:The thing I hate about all those terran nerfing is first the psychological of feeling bad for playing an op race and second that many other players when they lose against me say... olol terran op i would have won after patch olololol.... But the point is that: Playing terran is fucking hard! MVP, Bomber, MKP, Sc and 20 other terrans are OP... But 10000 others get punished for that 
lol yep 
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On October 27 2011 21:39 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 21:36 secretary bird wrote:On October 27 2011 21:22 FreudianTrip wrote:On October 27 2011 21:01 HypernovA wrote:On October 27 2011 18:00 Nightmer09 wrote:
Snipe should be nerfed aswell, No it should not. Zergs need to stop crying about snipe (actually TL needs to stop crying about snipe in general) and find ways to adapt. Find ways to adapt to an invisible unit instantly dealing 45 damage multiple times from 10 range. K. How many times have you seen ghosts dominate Zergs in GSL anyway? 2 or 3 times? Its not a problem unless you let the terran build up that ridiciously hard to get and irreplacable ghost/ tank army and a move in with nothing but broods or something like nestea. So you admit it's a problem?
It's a problem in the sense that 25 BC's floating into your base is a problem. All we have seen of it so far at a high (korean) level is 3 games where MVP tried it.
Once vs July on metalopolis, who tried to all-in him with 2-2 upgrades, failed at it, lost the game right then and there, and then proceeded to fall apart completely with MVP dragging out the game for entertainment. Twice vs Nestea, both times at blizzcon on shakuras, the first time MVP tried it he got rolled over by infestor ling, and the second time it actually worked, partially due to Nestea being indecisive/passive and partially due MVP executing it perfectly (you know, playing better then his opponent). The build relies on a very, very fast 3rd, is extremely thin on defense early on, is only possible on specific maps (maps that are generally considered zerg favored), and is actually hard as hell to pull off safely. It's a build that rewards a perfect defense with an eventual game win, a concept that pretty much all zerg play is based on.
Builds like this should be encouraged, not spat upon, and for now we've seen too little of it to declare it 'OP'. Otherwise every pro-terran playing to win would be doing this right now, which is simply not the case. TvZ/ZvT is fine as it is.
If it turns out to be a problem tho, the easiest way to solve it is by simply taking out shakuras and metalopolis out of the map pool. There's no earthly reason why tournaments still run shakuras in the mappool in the first place (it makes for terribly predictable and boring games), and to a lesser extent the same goes for metalopolis.
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Idk if I like decreasing the upgrade costs for protoss that much because of chronoboost, but we'll see, maybe the PTR will show it's not that big of a deal, or maybe it will show that it is, who knows.
Protoss say "oh but our units are so much more gas intensive!" and yet you have pro's routinely having double forges upgrading stuff all the time. If it's so bad how can you fund your army and 2 forges constantly? Maybe b/c it's not that big a deal?
But like i said, time will tell.
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I honestly dont find the upgrades now to be a big deal as aforemention by everyother protoss, go figure. But something just feels like it'll make a huge difference.
And with the ghost nerf, its nothing too serious IMO. 3Ghosts emping my whole Zealot,stalker,HT,immo,Collsus was kinda shitty. So if anything add 1 more ghost because of the reduced spread.
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Dont expect it to be major but still nice to see since it shows they know P is in trouble. Big changes wont happen untill the HoS is out.
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On October 27 2011 23:54 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 21:39 FreudianTrip wrote:On October 27 2011 21:36 secretary bird wrote:On October 27 2011 21:22 FreudianTrip wrote:On October 27 2011 21:01 HypernovA wrote:On October 27 2011 18:00 Nightmer09 wrote:
Snipe should be nerfed aswell, No it should not. Zergs need to stop crying about snipe (actually TL needs to stop crying about snipe in general) and find ways to adapt. Find ways to adapt to an invisible unit instantly dealing 45 damage multiple times from 10 range. K. How many times have you seen ghosts dominate Zergs in GSL anyway? 2 or 3 times? Its not a problem unless you let the terran build up that ridiciously hard to get and irreplacable ghost/ tank army and a move in with nothing but broods or something like nestea. So you admit it's a problem? It's a problem in the sense that 25 BC's floating into your base is a problem. All we have seen of it so far at a high (korean) level is 3 games where MVP tried it. Once vs July on metalopolis, who tried to all-in him with 2-2 upgrades, failed at it, lost the game right then and there, and then proceeded to fall apart completely with MVP dragging out the game for entertainment. Twice vs Nestea, both times at blizzcon on shakuras, the first time MVP tried it he got rolled over by infestor ling, and the second time it actually worked, partially due to Nestea being indecisive/passive and partially due MVP executing it perfectly (you know, playing better then his opponent). The build relies on a very, very fast 3rd, is extremely thin on defense early on, is only possible on specific maps (maps that are generally considered zerg favored), and is actually hard as hell to pull off safely. It's a build that rewards a perfect defense with an eventual game win, a concept that pretty much all zerg play is based on. Builds like this should be encouraged, not spat upon, and for now we've seen too little of it to declare it 'OP'. Otherwise every pro-terran playing to win would be doing this right now, which is simply not the case. TvZ/ZvT is fine as it is. If it turns out to be a problem tho, the easiest way to solve it is by simply taking out shakuras and metalopolis out of the map pool. There's no earthly reason why tournaments still run shakuras in the mappool in the first place (it makes for terribly predictable and boring games), and to a lesser extent the same goes for metalopolis.
Lol are you kidding me? It is not difficult in the slightest to drop a ghost academy after your third, and pump some ghosts while turtleing up. Give me a break, we've all done so it stop trying to make it sound like something that only the pros can accomplish.
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On October 27 2011 23:39 GurZtly wrote:The thing I hate about all those terran nerfing is first the psychological of feeling bad for playing an op race and second that many other players when they lose against me say... olol terran op i would have won after patch olololol.... But the point is that: Playing terran is fucking hard! MVP, Bomber, MKP, Sc and 20 other terrans are OP... But 10000 others get punished for that
But at Blizzcon they said the stats for all match ups were around 50%~ up till Korean-GM--where TvP favors Terran by around 10%.
Meaning, given your skill level you are still capable of beating people your level 50% of the time as Terran, regardless of how difficult you perceive your race to be.
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"And why there is no reduction to FG radius along with EMP?"
Because proper EMP = No fungals at all.
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On October 28 2011 00:17 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 23:39 GurZtly wrote:The thing I hate about all those terran nerfing is first the psychological of feeling bad for playing an op race and second that many other players when they lose against me say... olol terran op i would have won after patch olololol.... But the point is that: Playing terran is fucking hard! MVP, Bomber, MKP, Sc and 20 other terrans are OP... But 10000 others get punished for that But at Blizzcon they said the stats for all match ups were around 50%~ up till Korean-GM--where TvP favors Terran by around 10%. Meaning, given your skill level you are still capable of beating people your level 50% of the time as Terran, regardless of how difficult you perceive your race to be.
Well theres no statistic for macro games^^ I´m no math god but the win percentage is certainly not affected by the number of players. So if you look here: sc2 ranks you can see that in bronze and silver there are globaly more terrans than zergs or tosses... But from gold to grandmaster the number of terrans is significantly lower than the number of z´s and t´s... meaning that either terran is not as popular in those leagues or that terran is hardest to play from gold-master´s cause it needs micro mechanics that not everybody can get... for example the marine goes from normal t1 unit to fucking OP just cause of micro management... but everybody knows that. On my level ( plat) I have very hard times in a maxed vs maxed tvp battle.... Cause a move vs a move terran would lose 9 out of 10 times which maxes sense if you fight with bio against deathball.... For good terrans it is no problem but I often lose games cause of struggeling with my micro.
Sometimes however I play some toss for fun... PvT i get cheesed about 6 out of 10 times.... I think those 50%´s are such games^^
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On October 28 2011 00:17 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 23:39 GurZtly wrote:The thing I hate about all those terran nerfing is first the psychological of feeling bad for playing an op race and second that many other players when they lose against me say... olol terran op i would have won after patch olololol.... But the point is that: Playing terran is fucking hard! MVP, Bomber, MKP, Sc and 20 other terrans are OP... But 10000 others get punished for that But at Blizzcon they said the stats for all match ups were around 50%~ up till Korean-GM--where TvP favors Terran by around 10%. Meaning, given your skill level you are still capable of beating people your level 50% of the time as Terran, regardless of how difficult you perceive your race to be.
Well actually, the 50% win rate is artificial. It's how ladder works, if you win you'll meet better players, if you lose you'll meet worse players.
And as for Korean GM, well we all know the state of TvP in Korea...
The point being that you can't judge skill by just ladder ranking. Your APM might be double that of your opponents, but if you lose 80% of one matchup, your league won't reflect your skill level.
TvP is extremely hard as it is, mainly because you need to scout much better to be successful. At the top level of play Terran is very potent and the roles are reversed, but at gold/plat/diamond it is a nightmare.
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I'am fine with the emp change... However, the reduced cost of protoss upgrades, is just pure overkill...
TvP is extremely hard as it is, mainly because you need to scout much better to be successful. At the top level of play Terran is very potent and the roles are reversed, but at gold/plat/diamond it is a nightmare.
True, and now, it will be even worse.... My tvp sucks... I loose around 80% of my matches against toss..
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On October 27 2011 06:56 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:20 WhiteDog wrote:
This is bullshit, why decreasing upgrade's cost of the ground attack ? That's not really serious, it's the same price as the zerg, while we need two upgrade (range and melee)...
Ridiculous. And protoss need 2 upgrades for armor (armor + shield)...so whats your point?
No, just no. Most of protoss units have 50 shield more or less, and still a bigger hp pool than most zergling units.
Also, nerfing EMP and not snipe is a joke. It's like they are saying : hey listen zerg, fuck you okay ? We love protoss.
Ghost are way better in TvZ than in TvP. They just kill all T3 units.
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On October 28 2011 00:43 Grndr101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 00:17 Dommk wrote:On October 27 2011 23:39 GurZtly wrote:The thing I hate about all those terran nerfing is first the psychological of feeling bad for playing an op race and second that many other players when they lose against me say... olol terran op i would have won after patch olololol.... But the point is that: Playing terran is fucking hard! MVP, Bomber, MKP, Sc and 20 other terrans are OP... But 10000 others get punished for that But at Blizzcon they said the stats for all match ups were around 50%~ up till Korean-GM--where TvP favors Terran by around 10%. Meaning, given your skill level you are still capable of beating people your level 50% of the time as Terran, regardless of how difficult you perceive your race to be. Well actually, the 50% win rate is artificial. It's how ladder works, if you win you'll meet better players, if you lose you'll meet worse players. And as for Korean GM, well we all know the state of TvP in Korea... The point being that you can't judge skill by just ladder ranking. Your APM might be double that of your opponents, but if you lose 80% of one matchup, your league won't reflect your skill level. TvP is extremely hard as it is, mainly because you need to scout much better to be successful. At the top level of play Terran is very potent and the roles are reversed, but at gold/plat/diamond it is a nightmare.
No, this is according to their "skill adjusted win percentages". You may feel like it is a nightmare, but going by Blizzards stats alone, it is no harder to win with as Terran than Zerg or Protoss.
How Blizzard defines skill is beyond me, but what they use now is what they use to judge the balance of the game at every level, so they must have confidence in it.
But for the most part, given how SC2 still has a large mechanical side to it, balance plays a very small role in the lower leagues
No, just no. Most of protoss units have 50 shield more or less, and still a bigger hp pool than most zergling units.
What the fuck.
Shields make up roughly 50% to 25% of a units total HP (there are exceptions, i.e Archons).
And what does having a bigger HP have anything to do with this? sure a Stalker has more health than a Zergling but a Stalker costs a LOT more than a Zergling
At the end of the day it has to do with scaling.
1/1/0 Zealot fighting a 1/1 Zergling is WEAKER than a 0/0/0 Zealot fighting a 0/0 Zergling
Without the shield armor, Protoss actually scale worse than the other races
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On October 28 2011 00:50 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 00:43 Grndr101 wrote:On October 28 2011 00:17 Dommk wrote:On October 27 2011 23:39 GurZtly wrote:The thing I hate about all those terran nerfing is first the psychological of feeling bad for playing an op race and second that many other players when they lose against me say... olol terran op i would have won after patch olololol.... But the point is that: Playing terran is fucking hard! MVP, Bomber, MKP, Sc and 20 other terrans are OP... But 10000 others get punished for that But at Blizzcon they said the stats for all match ups were around 50%~ up till Korean-GM--where TvP favors Terran by around 10%. Meaning, given your skill level you are still capable of beating people your level 50% of the time as Terran, regardless of how difficult you perceive your race to be. Well actually, the 50% win rate is artificial. It's how ladder works, if you win you'll meet better players, if you lose you'll meet worse players. And as for Korean GM, well we all know the state of TvP in Korea... The point being that you can't judge skill by just ladder ranking. Your APM might be double that of your opponents, but if you lose 80% of one matchup, your league won't reflect your skill level. TvP is extremely hard as it is, mainly because you need to scout much better to be successful. At the top level of play Terran is very potent and the roles are reversed, but at gold/plat/diamond it is a nightmare. No, this is according to their "skill adjusted win percentages". You may feel like it is a nightmare, but going by Blizzards stats alone, it is no harder to win with as Terran than Zerg or Protoss. How Blizzard defines skill is beyond me, but what they use now is what they use to judge the balance of the game at every level, so they must have confidence in it. But for the most part, given how SC2 still has a large mechanical side to it, balance plays a very small role in the lower leagues
The notion of this escapes me. If you could link me to some article that defines "skill adjusted win percentages", I'd like to check it out.
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On October 28 2011 00:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 06:56 IVN wrote:On October 26 2011 23:20 WhiteDog wrote:
This is bullshit, why decreasing upgrade's cost of the ground attack ? That's not really serious, it's the same price as the zerg, while we need two upgrade (range and melee)...
Ridiculous. And protoss need 2 upgrades for armor (armor + shield)...so whats your point? No, just no. Most of protoss units have 50 shield more or less, and still a bigger hp pool than most zergling units. Also, nerfing EMP and not snipe is a joke. It's like they are saying : hey listen zerg, fuck you okay ? We love protoss. Ghost are way better in TvZ than in TvP. They just kill all T3 units.
Ghosts in TvZ have only become really popular recently, whereas Ghosts in TvP have been used for months and EMP also affects EVERY Protoss unit. You complain that Ghosts > Zerg T3? Ghosts > almost every Protoss unit.
And your top point is just stupid. First of all, your comment about 50 shields was way off, go look at liquipedia if you don't believe me. The reason why they have a bigger hp pool is because they cost more, dumbass. If you want to compare units in a vacuum (normally a stupid idea anyway, especially when they fulfil different roles), look at efficiency rather than just going: "Carriers can fly AND have an attack which hits both ground and air! My Zerglings can't fly and can only hit ground! Carriers so OP!"
Even if you do that, looking at just HP is silly - look at DPS, mobility, yaddayaddayadda. Fixating on one statistic on units between races is just ignorant and shows no understanding of race differences - you might as well go and play Age of Empires or Draughts/Checkers.
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On October 28 2011 00:50 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 00:43 Grndr101 wrote:On October 28 2011 00:17 Dommk wrote:On October 27 2011 23:39 GurZtly wrote:The thing I hate about all those terran nerfing is first the psychological of feeling bad for playing an op race and second that many other players when they lose against me say... olol terran op i would have won after patch olololol.... But the point is that: Playing terran is fucking hard! MVP, Bomber, MKP, Sc and 20 other terrans are OP... But 10000 others get punished for that But at Blizzcon they said the stats for all match ups were around 50%~ up till Korean-GM--where TvP favors Terran by around 10%. Meaning, given your skill level you are still capable of beating people your level 50% of the time as Terran, regardless of how difficult you perceive your race to be. Well actually, the 50% win rate is artificial. It's how ladder works, if you win you'll meet better players, if you lose you'll meet worse players. And as for Korean GM, well we all know the state of TvP in Korea... The point being that you can't judge skill by just ladder ranking. Your APM might be double that of your opponents, but if you lose 80% of one matchup, your league won't reflect your skill level. TvP is extremely hard as it is, mainly because you need to scout much better to be successful. At the top level of play Terran is very potent and the roles are reversed, but at gold/plat/diamond it is a nightmare. No, this is according to their "skill adjusted win percentages". You may feel like it is a nightmare, but going by Blizzards stats alone, it is no harder to win with as Terran than Zerg or Protoss. How Blizzard defines skill is beyond me, but what they use now is what they use to judge the balance of the game at every level, so they must have confidence in it. But for the most part, given how SC2 still has a large mechanical side to it, balance plays a very small role in the lower leagues Show nested quote +
No, just no. Most of protoss units have 50 shield more or less, and still a bigger hp pool than most zergling units.
What the fuck. Shields make up roughly 50% to 25% of a units total HP (there are exceptions, i.e Archons). And what does having a bigger HP have anything to do with this? sure a Stalker has more health than a Zergling but a Stalker costs a LOT more than a Zergling At the end of the day it has to do with scaling. 1/1/0 Zealot fighting a 1/1 Zergling is WEAKER than a 0/0/0 Zealot fighting a 0/0 Zergling Without the shield armor, Protoss actually scale worse than the other races
But then you also have a 1/1 stalker, while the zerg has a 0/1 roach. It is not better or worse, it's just different.
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On October 28 2011 00:48 Cheno wrote:I'am fine with the emp change... However, the reduced cost of protoss upgrades, is just pure overkill... Show nested quote +TvP is extremely hard as it is, mainly because you need to scout much better to be successful. At the top level of play Terran is very potent and the roles are reversed, but at gold/plat/diamond it is a nightmare. True, and now, it will be even worse.... My tvp sucks... I loose around 80% of my matches against toss..
You just need to work on that particular MU =D
These balance tweaks are for the very highest tier of players (i.e. not you or me).
If your having Problems with TvP you need to improve your play.
Blizz can't be balancing the game for diamond-master lvl players as that would most certainly break the game for the Pros......
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So the one real weapon used against protoss is looking like it will be nerfed. That makes a lot of sense. It's just forcing terran to mass ghosts now. More reason to use nukes I suppose.
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On October 28 2011 01:28 phyzycs wrote:
So the one real weapon used against protoss is looking like it will be nerfed. That makes a lot of sense. It's just forcing terran to mass ghosts now. More reason to use nukes I suppose.
Yup. Ghosts are the only unit used against Protoss, period. And making them worse forces you to use them more, and not make anything else. And making one spell on a unit worse now makes another more useful.
Logic. How I love you.
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EPT
