EPT1.4.2 Patch notes PTR - Page 111
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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fant0m
964 Posts
Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump). If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it). It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On November 02 2011 08:19 Dalavita wrote: If protoss players can't keep their HTs up and running, then yes, they do fail at micro, and yes, they are worse at micro. Or do you consider EMP OP because the Protoss player has his entire fucking army, HTs, sentries and archons in one massive clump when a scan lands on his army in an end game situation instead of thinking to themselves, GEE, I wonder what's going to hit me right this instant. The amount of times I've seen that is actually sigh-worthy at this stage, and that's what I consider a failure at adapting. It's not even EMP or Snipe by itself that defeats the protosses. It's the fact that the terran scans their army or snipes their observers, and I haven't even seen protosses try to react or respond to either, and that is actually strategy, and not simple micro. The only thing I've seen is HT warp prism ferrying, with some success, but the amount of times I've seen it even used is in the single digits still. Also, you should think of it this way. The terran player would have to EMP every single HT to prevent storms. If you EMP half of them and the battle engages, and the protoss has HTs coming in from behind his army storming the shit out of your army, your bio ball is still going to die, regardless of if you landed EMPs or not. The impetus is on Protoss to adapt to ghost usage because that's whats giving them a hard time. They've done nothing so far. The only reason Terrans started implementing ghosts heavily was because the lategame protoss armies and infestor broodlord combinations were beating the shit out of them. Pendulum swings back to the protosses now. Oh my god. Well said Dalavita. I'd also like to add the simple fact that, storm kills... emp doesn't! I think Toss expects the EMP ability should only have an AOE of .1 or something. I not sure exactly how many Toss players understand that if you can drian the ghosts energy, or find a way to kill them. It's GG, storm absolutely rapes bio without ghost support. All I ever see is Protoss just QQ everytime a Terran EMP's there army. Then they take it to the forums and QQ more. How about Protoss actually bite the bullet here and find a way to adapt to it? Blizzard ain't gonna keep buffing your race forever because of your petty QQ's. How about growing up? Personally, I'm over seeing toss QQ over EMP. Deal with it! | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 02 2011 08:11 Skyro wrote: Protoss players haven't adapted? Adapted to what? It's not a strategy we're talking about, it is simply micro. Unless you're saying Protoss players just overall have worse micro than Terran players which is ridiculous. You haven't seen HT feedback ghosts much because it's a losing proposition for Protoss in nearly all situations. It is as simple as that. Or think of it this way. A Protoss player would have to feedback every ghost to prevent emp, a unit that can cloak, and a unit that is small and hard to target even when it isn't cloaked when mixed in with a bio army and under medivacs. The Terran has to cast a ground-targeted AoE, and he only has to get very few of them off successfully to completely nullify HT (and do significant damage to all other protoss units). So otherside of cases where it is only a few ghosts vs a few HT or something it is almost always better and just spread your HT and hope you get a few storms off before they get emp'ed. That's it. And for the record I don't think EMP is crazy OP when considering the matchup as a whole, I just find all these feedback/emp comparisons ridiculous because they are not comparable, it isn't "who can micro better," it is clear EMP will win out, but that doesn't mean the matchup is super out of balance. Ghosts are supposed to be the counter to HT. Indeed. Templars already do a wonderful job against every other unit outside of ghosts, and without the ghost edging out on top, what is Terran to do? And that's exactly how it is right now, the ghost edges out on top. It's not completely one-sided or futile to go HTs when a ghost comes out of the field, but the ghost does have a solid advantage in the "duel." I personally don't think the nerf is completely uncalled for, since 2.0 is quite a large radius considering it is instant, but to reduce it down to 1.5 is a rather large nerf. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote: I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations. Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump). If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it). It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). Seriously, GTFO. Terran can put everything on 1 hotkey and move around? I'm assuming your accusing Terran of a 1 A race? You have to be freaking kidding me. I hope you don't play toss, because that is the last person I would expect to hear that come from lol. The reason why Terrans are so god damn good right now is because their micro is already light years ahead of Zergs and Protoss. You CAN literally 1 A with Toss and Zerg, have fun doing the same with Terran. EDIT: I would also like to add, do you have any idea how much more micro a Terran needs to pull off against a Zerg these days to trade efficiently? | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 02 2011 09:04 fant0m wrote: I don't think there should be massive "APM requirement" imbalances in the difficulty to get off counters to each other's micro. That just produces discrepancies in the skill requirement for each player in non-mirror situations. Example: Terran has a lot more forgiving nature when it comes to the Ghost side of Ghost vs. HT. They don't have to worry about an AOE energy removal, or being outranged. It's easy to hit clumps of units, but hard to keep them spread (when moving units naturally clump). If units automatically spread themselves out enough to not get multiple units hit by 1 EMP no matter what you did, then that would create an imbalance in the opposite direction. It would be very hard to efficiently use EMP (ambush in chokes? might be the only place you could do it). It absolutely is possible to fight Ghosts with Templars or Infestors, but the Protoss/Zerg player has to have sooooo much more APM to efficiently pull it off (individual micro on every one of his spell casters + risk getting out-ranged) vs. what the Terran has to do (put everything on one hotkey and move around) that I feel something should be changed. The APM required to execute the counter to solid macro strategies should be relatively equal and not favor ANY race over another. I just don't feel that SC2 has that parity in a lot of places (not just Ghost vs. Templar). Um, wow. Are you really complaining about 1 single aspect for Terran being easier to micro than Zerg and Protoss? I don't see Zerg stressing how to stagger zerglings when approaching tanks, or Protoss even using focus targeting with colossi to make sure AoE damage is most effective. The general army engagements for Terran require a LOT more micro than anything Protoss and Zerg have to worry about, but you're fixated on 1-in-5 game scenarios that aren't even guaranteed in late game. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
... Seriously guys, we're concerned with the very top level of play here, not the ladder woes of a Diamond Terran. | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On November 02 2011 05:11 Snowbear wrote: Just look at CODE A GSL, MLG, ESWC and every other tournament! You will notice 2 things: - EU / NA terrans are DOMINATED, not DOMINATING (only thorzain and select are doing decent). - Z and P are doing extremely well. JUST LOOK at this (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) and tell me that terran is OP. + Show Spoiler + MLG with BEASTLY terrans like BOMBER, BOXER, PUMA, POLT, THESTC, ... ends in a PvP finals, and you dare to say that terran is OP? I think this post was funny. If you count the results on the page linked you get this: Protoss:10 gold 8 silver, Terran: 12 gold 13 silver, Zerg: 17 gold 15 silver. Clearly Zerg is OP ^ ^. Honestly I think the patch will be good. They are hopefully getting close to not needing to patch much more. Zerg doesn't seem like it's imbalanced to me, but really good in the hands of a skilled player. Protoss just needs a bit of buff and thats most of all that this patch does. Ghosts will not be much worse against zerg at all, but T will dominate P less. The slight buff to protoss upgrades is biggest on shields, which benefits them most v.s. zerg. We'll see in future results, but i really doubt terran is going to be hurting much in future tournaments. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On November 02 2011 09:32 Toadvine wrote: Yeah guys, Terran has it so hard! So much micro needed to make bio efficient! Terran players are just so much better at everything, that's why they take up 60% of Code S! It's a good thing Terrans have Ghosts, because they'd lose to HTs even with their insane micro skill, so why is Blizzard nerfing EMP?! Can't they see it doesn't kill anything? Terrans only barely win lategame engagements against Protoss even with superior upgrades and perfect EMPs on everything! ... Seriously guys, we're concerned with the very top level of play here, not the ladder woes of a Diamond Terran. I must agree here. I couldn't care less about any random Diamond/Master player's balance experiences. I care about balance at the Korean pro level, and I want to see a fair playing field for the players who undoubtedly deserve one the most. Seriously, if anyone's excuse for why a certain nerf is bad is simply "In my experience it'll make it soooo hard for me to win!", then your opinion is completely irrelevant - tough luck. I want to see an even playing ground for the absolute best players who dedicate their very lives to the game, not for some random person who just makes it a mere hobby to play SC2, and at the very top level, it's been pretty clear that EMP as it used to be, was too strong. | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On October 26 2011 06:27 Jimbo77 wrote: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.2 General “Audio Fade” under Sound Options has been renamed to Game Volume During Alerts. Its tooltips have also been changed for clarification. The fade-in for game sound during alerts changed from .5 seconds to 2 seconds. Bug Fixes Fixed a truncation on specific resolution if the current and maximum supplies are 3 digits. Fixed an issue which prevented footprint from being edited in the Footprint Editor. Fixed an issue that caused the game to have missing icons and images on low end graphics cards. Balance PROTOSS Forge The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200. The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300. The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400. The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175. The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250. The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175. The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250. TERRAN Ghost EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662 Really strange, for what reason Protoss ground weapons and armor cost has changed. (for Shields OK) And why there is no reduction to FG radius along with EMP? P.S. For P EMP radius reduction might have sense cuz HT/sentry are really small, but now EMP is even more useless against really fat infestors, that is really worse for TvZ mid/late game. Ground attack and armor should not be buffed. Protoss units all already start with +1 Armor. Now Terran infantry upgrades are the most expensive, which doesn't make as much sense since it applies to vastly fewer units than Protoss Forge upgrades. It made sense with Zerg because they had to choose between range and melee, so the cheaper 100/150/200 cost was a good compromise compared to the Terran/Protoss standard of 100/175/250. Shield NEEDS to be buffed, otherwise why the fuck would you ever spend all your money to get it? But with double Forge upgrades being so powerful in PvT as well as being so much faster, is it REALLY necessary to make it that much easier? 25/25 doesn't seem like much, but when you're dead broke, it quite a wait when you want to get shit done. 50/50 is even worse (and it's per upgrade). Then again, now there's a downside to Terran other than not being able to play mech... But I don't know how I feel about this from a Zerg perspective... Protoss doesn't really get double upgrades in PvZ, so it's not as much of an issue I guess... I'd rather see something that adds to the variety of possible Protoss builds PvZ. Right now, you're WILL open Forge FE or do a 1 base build that's 70% likely to be all in and 25% likely to do nothing but put you behind economically while keeping Zerg on his toes with the last 5% being you caught him off guard and go into the midgame with even or better economy. I mean, Terran has 2 Rax, Reapers, Banshees, reactor Hellions, and blue Flame Hellions for openers against Zerg (and a variety of Barracks plays, Banshees, and 1-1-1 against Protoss). Either deny Terran's options early on or give the other races more options early on. Remember the disaster when 3 Gate Sentry expo was no longer viable in PvZ (without 1-2 cannons AND godly Force Fields)? Protoss had basically no other builds to go to, so DT expands and Stargate (Void Ray) openings became more popular until we settled on the Forge FE (and now it's ONLY Forge FE...). If Zerg comes up with something (likely some sort of Roach bust) to deal with the Terran reactor Hellion expand, Terran will just go back to 2 Rax, Banshees, or 1 Rax gasless FE. Then again, when you can warp units right into your opponent's base (or right outside), more options might mean Protoss becomes unbeatable in the early game. As for the Ghosts, I really feel like this won't do much. Terrans are starting to get blanket Ghosts... Weakening EMP radius won't do much when Terran comes in with like 10 Ghosts with 200 Energy... You only needed like 3-5 (5 with a very well spread army) EMPs before to hit the army... With 10 Ghosts, you have at least 10 EMPs... Also someone mentioned EMPs being less effective vs Infestors now because Infestors are fat and HTs and Sentries are small (meaning that Infestors wouldn't clump as much as Protoss units to begin with so this nerf means even less Infestors gets hit by EMP). My response to that is Snipe. We're seeing mass Ghosts come anyway. Not having enough EMPs if you make it to the late game will almost never be an issue unless you commit to low tier Barracks units for too long and realize at 195 supply that you maxed out on units you didn't need as much as you need Ghosts. The Ghost itself needs to be changed (Cooldown on EMP and Snipe instead of energy cost? or a combination of both?). High Templar and Infestors are reasonably all-purpose units, so complaining that Ghosts counter everything is pretty dumb. | ||
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Aborash
65 Posts
On November 02 2011 08:33 Dalavita wrote: Yes, we know about supply. All the races share that mechanic. What's your point? Critical Mass | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On November 02 2011 10:06 HolyArrow wrote: I must agree here. I couldn't care less about any random Diamond/Master player's balance experiences. I care about balance at the Korean pro level, and I want to see a fair playing field for the players who undoubtedly deserve one the most. Seriously, if anyone's excuse for why a certain nerf is bad is simply "In my experience it'll make it soooo hard for me to win!", then your opinion is completely irrelevant - tough luck. I want to see an even playing ground for the absolute best players who dedicate their very lives to the game, not for some random person who just makes it a mere hobby to play SC2, and at the very top level, it's been pretty clear that EMP as it used to be, was too strong. The issue is Blizzard doesn't necessarily want to balance just for the pros (otherwise this process would probably go by much faster). They want to balance it for the noobs as well as keep it reasonable for pros. I mean, from a business perspective, would you really want to alienate your customers to serve just a small percentage of the people who play your game for a living? Ideally, you'd want to satisfy both groups. You want to satisfy the casual gamers with a balanced game at the lower and middle levels while still balancing the game at the higher levels, which is INCREDIBLY difficult to do if it's even possible. Do you think Blizzard will be happy with nobody playing Battle.net 2.0 and instead just paid organizations like MLG and GSL to watch people play their game? Of course not. And if that ever happened, then how would new players get into the game? We'd see a total monopoly of skill unless you have a professional take a LOT of time out of their schedule to teach you. Or if the end result is that a race or two becomes completely unviable at the lower levels, then eventually you'll only have the remaining races at the top of the game because nobody else will play the other 2 races. So we're going to have to accept this process to be slow and imperfect if everyone is to be happy at the end of it all. If Starcraft 2 is going to survive, EVERYONE (noobs and pros) needs to be reasonably satisfied with game balance. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
What? It would be more of, say, 8 ultras, 4 infestors, and a ton of ling/bling And seriously, if you think it's really harder for zerg to defend 4 base against a terran/protoss defending 2/3 against a zerg... You need to go play some vZ games. Zerg gets free vision of map as well as bonus MS, and already has upgrades for higher speed on lings/blings, and infestors can delay pushes with FG. Not to mention that zerg has the larva mechanic, so while everyone else is making units 20-30 at a time, zerg just has all the hatches on a hotkey, rallies to the middle of the map, and makes units off of ~50 larva. And can sac some speed overlords to scout out where your army is, changelings to scout your complete army, and olords/lings at every base to see when they get taken/if they are attempting to be taken. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
On November 02 2011 09:12 ZorBa.G wrote: Seriously, GTFO. Terran can put everything on 1 hotkey and move around? I'm assuming your accusing Terran of a 1 A race? You have to be freaking kidding me. I hope you don't play toss, because that is the last person I would expect to hear that come from lol. The reason why Terrans are so god damn good right now is because their micro is already light years ahead of Zergs and Protoss. You CAN literally 1 A with Toss and Zerg, have fun doing the same with Terran. EDIT: I would also like to add, do you have any idea how much more micro a Terran needs to pull off against a Zerg these days to trade efficiently? Out of curiosity, can any other terran players tell me whether or not this mentality is widespread in the race? It seems a lot like Idra style zerg QQ shifted to terrans, except terran is actually doing well so it makes less sense. | ||
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Arkless
Canada1547 Posts
On November 02 2011 10:28 giuocob wrote: Out of curiosity, can any other terran players tell me whether or not this mentality is widespread in the race? It seems a lot like Idra style zerg QQ shifted to terrans, except terran is actually doing well so it makes less sense. I agree, if he thinks T is the 1 a race. Then he is just plain crazy. Terran is if anything THE most micro intensive race in the game. By far. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On November 02 2011 10:28 giuocob wrote: Out of curiosity, can any other terran players tell me whether or not this mentality is widespread in the race? It seems a lot like Idra style zerg QQ shifted to terrans, except terran is actually doing well so it makes less sense. I don't know but it's true. I'm gonna hold the belief terran players got better because they had to. You cannot a-move EVER unless you're lightyears ahead, particularly against zerg. The race requires you to do more multitasking. | ||
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hnQ
113 Posts
On November 02 2011 10:33 Arkless wrote: I agree, if he thinks T is the 1 a race. Then he is just plain crazy. Terran is if anything THE most micro intensive race in the game. By far. I don't get this, at all, no race is more micro intensive than the other atm. | ||
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Aborash
65 Posts
On November 02 2011 10:25 Active.815 wrote: What? It would be more of, say, 8 ultras, 4 infestors, and a ton of ling/bling And seriously, if you think it's really harder for zerg to defend 4 base against a terran/protoss defending 2/3 against a zerg... You need to go play some vZ games. Zerg gets free vision of map as well as bonus MS, and already has upgrades for higher speed on lings/blings, and infestors can delay pushes with FG. Not to mention that zerg has the larva mechanic, so while everyone else is making units 20-30 at a time, zerg just has all the hatches on a hotkey, rallies to the middle of the map, and makes units off of ~50 larva. And can sac some speed overlords to scout out where your army is, changelings to scout your complete army, and olords/lings at every base to see when they get taken/if they are attempting to be taken. Again, if you got 4 bases, your army got few units than a 3 base army, if you add critical mass, then you just adding injury to insult. Not sure why tell me the mechanics of the Zergs nullifies the critical mass | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
Your math is off. Zerg goes 4 base gas and 3-3.5 base minerals. That frees up 8-16 supply. You WON'T go Ultras AND Broodlords at the same time. And if you do, you aren't going to have 6 of them, more like 3. That frees up 12 supply if you cut 3 Broodlords or 18 supply if you cut 3 Ultralisks. You now have an additional 20-34 supply. And that's if you go for both Ultras AND Broodlords, which rarely happens. It's a TECH SWITCH, not a real unit combination. The additional 20-34 supply means 2-4 more Infestors and 30-60 cracklings and a few Banelings. A more realistic unit composition would be Ling/Bane/Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor. You get 4-6 Broodlords, ~8 Infestors, ~6 Corruptors (or more Infestors), and ~100 Zerglings and ~30 Banelings. The then overcommit to Vikings, you lose your Broodlords and Corruptors, and you pop 6 Ultralisks and more according to how many Zerglings and Banelings you lost. So you get like 8 Ultralisks, a crapton of Lings, a dozen Banelings, and kill Terran. This is what happened when you didn't have Ghosts. At that time, you were very likely to just die to the Broodlords. Infestors and Corruptors kill the Vikings, Broodlords force Tanks to unsiege, and Ling/Bane/Infestor kills EVERYTHING. Also, you can't just make a bunch of Marauders. If you do, a Muta switch will SLAUGHTER you. And this isn't an "infinite gas" scenario. It's a RESOURCE STOCKPILING SCENARIO, which is VERY common when you max out and stay maxed out because you're meticulously pushing across the map. | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
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