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A lot of people are suggesting casting it on a burrowed unit like a roach with tunneling claws. The problem is that a lot of borrowable units lose sight range while burrowed, roaches probably more so then any other unit. So your detection range will probably be changed as well, as it would be pretty weird for a unit to detect something it can't even see yet. So if you want to cast it on mobile burrowed units (roach/ HotS baneling) your "Zerg observer" will probably only have a range of 3-4.
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I doubt it will be a problem at all as most zerg use spores as detection a lot more than anything, overseers are rarely ever used except to scout opponent's base, the only instance I can think of where it was crucial to have overseers in ur army is when someone got mothership late game...
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For anyone that's played hots beta custom map* and played some games as Z, it feels weird as hell to have to build a viper each time u want 1 detector unit.
I don't know about others that main Zerg and have tried it, but it feel awkward as hell to give 1 random unit detection and then it dies and you have to rebuild a 200 gas viper. To me it's the same as the shredder. People that haven't played with it think it's amazing, but it's just terrible lol.
Don't get me wrong, the spells are powerful, but having to build 1 to get detection each time is just bad.
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On November 06 2011 13:51 avilo wrote:
For anyone that's played hots beta and played some games as Z, it feels weird as hell to have to build a viper each time u want 1 detector unit.
I don't know about others that main Zerg and have tried it, but it feel awkward as hell to give 1 random unit detection and then it dies and you have to rebuild a 200 gas viper. To me it's the same as the shredder. People that haven't played with it think it's amazing, but it's just terrible lol.
Don't get me wrong, the spells are powerful, but having to build 1 to get detection each time is just bad.
MVP didn't seem to think the shredder sucked as him vs nestea looked gross :D.
But yes it already sounds weird and hopefully gets changed because that's stupid to have to do 200 gas to get detection on 1 unit that if sniped you are boned detetion wise -_-...
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why would you need detection that badly though? zergs always defend banshees and DTs with spores... mothership is going to be removed...
I'm pretty sure zerg is going to be perfectly fine
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On November 06 2011 13:53 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 13:51 avilo wrote:
For anyone that's played hots beta and played some games as Z, it feels weird as hell to have to build a viper each time u want 1 detector unit.
I don't know about others that main Zerg and have tried it, but it feel awkward as hell to give 1 random unit detection and then it dies and you have to rebuild a 200 gas viper. To me it's the same as the shredder. People that haven't played with it think it's amazing, but it's just terrible lol.
Don't get me wrong, the spells are powerful, but having to build 1 to get detection each time is just bad. MVP didn't seem to think the shredder sucked as him vs nestea looked gross :D. But yes it already sounds weird and hopefully gets changed because that's stupid to have to do 200 gas to get detection on 1 unit that if sniped you are boned detetion wise -_-...
Two players who dunno wtf they are doing and are just messing with the new units doesn't mean jack shit. When you first try new game you end up trying to "use" the new units instead of just playing good lol so don't make much of that video.
Although, on that point, it seems like the shredder in the blizzcon videos is different from the one in the custom map because the custom map one has less radius or something, so that could be why. As is, in the hots custom map they're pointless.
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I just.... this... what?
I facepalmed so hard hearing that zerg would HAVE to make a viper for detection. That kinda means the only form of detection that would get up in time for banshees would be spore crawlers, unless you teched up really fast as zerg. I think having the ability work on enemy units and having it the same as the SC1 queen's parasite would have been far, far better, even though it's not really good that way anyways.
As a terran player who was thinking of switching to Z, I'm reconsidering. Nexus recall/Mech terran sounds like more fun than swarm host/viper... though moving burrowed banelings would bring me such joy.
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I think the Viper could cripple Zerg detection. On one hand you have spore crawlers which are amazing, but don't really work as mobile detection. Then you have the overseer, which is too expensive to have at every base but is there for the "OH SHIT" moments but has absolutely no utility in battles except for being a mobile detector. The problem with giving a mobile detector unit battle abilities that can be used in combat and can be winning or losing is that you have to make it slow to get, weak, or expensive. If you make it slow to get, it has no use for "Oh shit" detection, if you make it weak it's only use is "Oh shit" detection, but if you make it expensive, it's too hard for Zerg to get by the time the opponent has stealth units. Another Problem of this unit is how it is going to be balanced, it can turn the tides of games, between winning and losing and will take a long time to figure out what needs to happen to it. In conclusion I feel as though the overseer would be fine to stay, it should be used as a primary source of detection while the Viper could be used as a secondary form and it's primary use would be a caster in battles.
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On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease  Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
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On November 06 2011 16:24 Jrocker152 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease Can someone confirm? I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
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On November 06 2011 16:37 Unnamed Player wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:24 Jrocker152 wrote:On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease Can someone confirm? I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep. It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want. This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums. The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong.
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On November 06 2011 13:55 ReignFayth wrote:
why would you need detection that badly though? zergs always defend banshees and DTs with spores... mothership is going to be removed...
I'm pretty sure zerg is going to be perfectly fine
You serious?
And how are Zergs supposed to defend against cloaked Ghosts, Banshee and DT in the middle of the map or in the opponent base? No, fungal is not good enough or reliable enough. Why don't we just remove Scan from terran then...
How are Zergs supposed to defend against burrowed Roaches or new Burrow move banelings?
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On November 06 2011 16:37 Unnamed Player wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:24 Jrocker152 wrote:On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease Can someone confirm? I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep. It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want. This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums. The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
The guy needs to edit his OP to put that at the top of the thread so people will stop responding without being informed. That or I hope a mod can pop a warning or some red text to tell people how it is. Or maybe it doesnt matter because we dont even know if Blizzards gonna change it by the time beta comes out.
If it is true that the Viper can cast it as many times as it has energy for, then I still think keeping a Viper for designated detector creation on OLs would be an incredibly good alternative to Overseers.
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On November 06 2011 17:46 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:37 Unnamed Player wrote:On November 06 2011 16:24 Jrocker152 wrote:On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease Can someone confirm? I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep. It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want. This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums. The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous. It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong.
Did you miss the part where i said "This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums"
Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there
Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216712¤tpage=All
Blizzcon player:
On October 22 2011 18:53 Belial88 wrote:
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
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On November 06 2011 18:35 Unnamed Player wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 17:46 aksfjh wrote:On November 06 2011 16:37 Unnamed Player wrote:On November 06 2011 16:24 Jrocker152 wrote:On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease Can someone confirm? I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep. It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want. This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums. The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous. It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong. Did you miss the part where i said " This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums" Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216712¤tpage=AllBlizzcon player: Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 18:53 Belial88 wrote:
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
I was agreeing with you. I'm saying a lot of the misinformation is being spread by that mod that popped up on NA. It has a lot of things wrong, and iirc, the Viper detection spell is one of them. The information you posted is correct. -_-
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On November 06 2011 18:55 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 18:35 Unnamed Player wrote:On November 06 2011 17:46 aksfjh wrote:On November 06 2011 16:37 Unnamed Player wrote:On November 06 2011 16:24 Jrocker152 wrote:On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease Can someone confirm? I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep. It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want. This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums. The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous. It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong. Did you miss the part where i said " This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums" Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216712¤tpage=AllBlizzcon player: On October 22 2011 18:53 Belial88 wrote:
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
I was agreeing with you. I'm saying a lot of the misinformation is being spread by that mod that popped up on NA. It has a lot of things wrong, and iirc, the Viper detection spell is one of them. The information you posted is correct. -_-
Apologies, i thought you were saying the guys from Blizzcon were getting there info from that mod.
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I think Blizzard will be forced to change this in time.
It just does not seem to be viable, or at least it forces Viper tech so much.
The low tier players will have so many problems with this 
Banshee + DT will crush them.
I think they should just add a 200\200 upgrade to overlords that grants detection.
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On November 06 2011 12:31 SpaceYeti wrote:They need to remove the detection function from the Viper and bring back the Overseer, just stripped of its abilities. I cannot see how they are going to be able to balance the Viper when it is simultaneously a necessity given it's detection role, but also a powerful caster unit and siege breaker that single-handedly changes the tides of a specific battle. These roles are in direct conflict and pose major complications when it comes to determining the costs and tech-requirements of the Viper as a unit. I really hope they see this problem and resolve it. I also don't like that they have make Zerg early game scouting even worse than it currently is. 
Would be neat if they made overseer like really cheap and just made it detect too yeah.
Like 50/25 or something.
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I'm concerned because I play the spanishiwa style a lot and that relies on spending the gas to morph an overseeer next to the enemy's base immediately after lair tech. This won't be as viable anymore because overlords are just too slow. Gonna have to figure something else out
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I'm not fond of that visual clue, a giant orb oO imagine that on the top of a zergling. Also, it should be only visible for the opponent by detection.
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EPT
