As little as is known right now, I am a bit worried about the loss of the overseer as a detector compared to the viper as a detector.
Overseer: + morph time 17s, when lair tech is done + cost 50/50 + sight range 11 + Speed 1.875 (2,75 with upgrade) + morph from any overlord spread around the map - rarely used/bad spells
Viper: ? build time unknown, but very probably way more than 17s (infestor is 50s e.g.) said to build fairly quick ? cost 100/200, but can make multiple detectors - sight range (of the detector) depends on unit (max 11) - speed (of the detector) depends on unit (can be very fast zergling or very slow) - must have the viper near the unit you want as a detector + spells sound very strong
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). How much havoc can some DTs or Banshees wreck till you can have another detector up? From people playing at Blizzcon, the Viper can infect multiple units; each for the low cost of 25 energy.
Also it seems the parasite will not work on massive units (no Broodlord, no Ultralisk), so what is left? An overlord, which flies, but is very slow? Maybe a muta or corruptor?
Am I overlooking something, or does this hurt zerg detection quite much? Currently looks, like switching the Overseer out for the viper, slows the initial zerg detection down, since the cost is higher and you have to get the unit you want as a detector close to the Viper.
It's a pretty big hit to the availability of detection. However, having a single viper will probably never be a bad move - no matter what the push, it would seem to always be a helpful unit to have, so there's that.
i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
On October 25 2011 18:47 albis wrote: would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
¿How anyone of this be better than a single spore? Remember spores can move and burrow pretty quick.
Also, queens are the priority target on a cloacked rush, so getting them to be detectors make them more priority target.
On October 25 2011 18:47 albis wrote: would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
yeah or have the zerling as detector O_o...
I always like to make 3-4 overseer when needed in big battle against T or P since it's pretty cheep, you already have the overload and chageling are so usefull
will need to try this new units before concluding anything tough...
I see one big plus for the parasite. It should be harder to snipe the detection units to use your ghosts or DTs in engagement since you wouldn't know which unit is the detector.
I'm more worried about what it's gonna do to our mid game scouting then our detection honestly. You can get an overseer as soon as you get a lair to get into the enemy base and poke around to see what you're reacting to just fine, but if we're stuck waiting on OL speed to do this, or using slow OL's, or only able to go by what we see from poking at the front, then im pretty sure we're screwed. XD
Going against a Terran with many ghosts to both snipe BLs and Ultras, the only viable way to kill them off would be either with an overseer (very easily sniped) or revealing them with a fungal. EMP out ranges fungal and are very squishy.
I'm a little worried, but it's early days and we still don't even have beta.
That said, I'm concerned for early/midgame detection as the viper is going to be difficult, or impossible, to get early enough to be an option for things like big banshee play (while still being economically viable). With no other detection option I can see it being very difficult to avoid having to over-produce spores for defense in order to avoid stupid losses.
... especially as removing the overseer also leaves somewhat of a hole in zerg scouting as it currently stands. Hopefully blizz will give us some alternative, eg overlord speed at hatch tech would be very welcome.
It seems like zerg would become like a Terran that didn't have the ability to scan, i.e. no mobile detection until you get out a raven (also 100/200)... which is stupid, and I play Terran. 2 Port cloakshee would become too strong again as zerg would not be able to get a detector that the cloakshees could not just kill. DTs wouldn't kill you out right, but could easily contain you on 2 bases. If you did happen to take a very quick 3rd and spore that up in time, a protoss could just park DTs outside your natural to not let you move out and easily go kill your 3rd and then take a quick 3rd themselves. At least in zvz you wouldn't have to worry about swarm host rushes. Or would you? Hopefully it doesn't come down to having to spread creep and leap-frog spore crawlers just to be able to move out of your base with units that aren't as fast as speedlings...
On October 25 2011 20:09 silentblob wrote: my advice is to wait till the game ships before you worry about the balance, thats meant in a nice way
Try to remember that DB put all this stuff out there because he wants our community feedback on these ideas to know if they're worth finalizing or not for the beta.
So we'd actually be doing a bad thing by just going "ooo how snazzy" and then waiting till the beta to say anything at all.
If one mutalisk was ocular parasited in a pack of mutas, it would be a really good tool for scouting/map control/picking off observers, banshees, possibly DT's possibly shredders and swarm hosts if they are used as intended.
I think thats how they will be used... and hopefully they won't be visible by the enemy unless the enemy has a detector.
Yeah it's true that detection will be quite delay.
But your opponent doesn't know if you have detection or not. It's quite good against cloacked ghost or banshee. I mean if a ghost come to EMP your infestor, the Terran can't see if one of your units is a detector. Same thing for obs, banshee, burrowed zergs, DTs.
In an offensive point of view, this ability can be very usefull. However, in defense you'll have to make spore I guess. And if you want to get uppgrade you have to build a evolution chamber so... And remember that the sporecrawler cost only 75 minerals (well + 50 for the drone) but that's all. And in the mid or late game, player like Stephano spend a lot of minerals on spinecrawler and sporecrawler. So that's it. You'll have to get a quick evolution chamber against cloacked rush, but you already do that in WoL, except if you're already on lair
Edit : Just watch the video, okay a giant flotaing orb... Well it's still less obvious that an overseer over your army
On October 25 2011 20:09 silentblob wrote: my advice is to wait till the game ships before you worry about the balance, thats meant in a nice way
Try to remember that DB put all this stuff out there because he wants our community feedback on these ideas to know if they're worth finalizing or not for the beta.
So we'd actually be doing a bad thing by just going "ooo how snazzy" and then waiting till the beta to say anything at all.
haha, you are right, but I've heard already in interviews that he's concerned about vision for Zerg, because they removed the overseeer, and them saying they have learnt their lesson from when WoL came out not to overlook something that was already a problem.. Because for a while people were struggling with cloak banshees vs zerg, I just figured they'd know not to mess something like that up! but, after seeing ur post i put down my thoughts...
I've said this before in other threads but there also is another problem, scouting. Right now as soon as lair is finished I pay 50/50 and morph and overseer and scout. In hots as it is now, we would have to pay 100/100 for overlord speed and wait until it's finished to scout. I don't now about you I'm not sending my 200 gas viper into the opponents base to scout oO
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Yeah this concerns me a lot as zerg as well - they patch overseers to lower the cost, but then use the expansion to nerf them to high hell and make us settle for one eye per build cost and build time of a viper, to put on a worse unit for the job? Comparing this directly to the raven is a joke and that doesn't include scan availability. And comparing it to the observer price for what you get is also hilarious. Blizz needs to stop playing fast and loose with their zerg creativity, this is a sloppy mistake that prevents us from being able to aggress or protect new hatcheries as they build, and having to pay an arm and a leg just to try. Also really vulnerable to late game ZvT with high ghost count endgame - it's already extremely costly to keep enough overseers alive to see ghosts despite mass snipe availability. This also means that detection includes the cost of unit supply now as we have to sign up for one of these to get a detector, which means that from a reactionary circumstance, you may be supply blocked and unable to even st art building your mobile detection.
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Read the last sentence in the Official Blizzard description: Finally, the Viper has a one-time ability called Ocular Parasite, which allows it to detach its eye stalk and meld it onto any friendly, non-massive unit, turning that unit into a detector.
Consider the following. Cast on an armored burrow unit (like roach) during an engagement burrow said unit. The enemy now has to focus on your burrowed unit to get rid of detection but your army is swarming on top of it.
It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
Didn't they mention that the Viper will be a separate build from the hatchery? So it doesn't sue larvae?
They'll probably end up just being constructed when you have your lair up, like the Overseer.
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
welcome to the world of PvT - where going observer first for detection is obligatory
not that I like that blizz also does this to zerg, but maybe it helps zerg-players to understand PvT-problems a little bit better
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
welcome to the world of PvT - where going observer first for detection is obligatory
not that I like that blizz also does this to zerg, but maybe it helps zerg-players to understand PvT-problems a little bit better
Uh, I think it is equally stupid there ... remove scan from the game would make it equal I guess ...
Do we know if range of detection is only extended as far as unit vision for any unit "parasited" by the Viper? Or is it like scanning, where a scan seems to detect a little on the fringe of its vision, and likewise with turrets. Maybe I'm confused.
The reason I'm asking is because it would be useful to put detection on a burrowed unit, like say a burrowed roach or infestor. It would not be useful, however, if the unit's detection is limited to its current sight range (when burrowed, ~1ish).
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
Just to entertain the idea... So what if you have to make vipers? Assuming the Viper keeps its other abilities too (you're assuming that things will change in the game due to the Viper as currently defined), they'll be QUITE the complement to ANY Zerg composition. You WANT the Viper in your army comp. You WANT to be able to render deathballs helpless and to capture and kill special units (re: collosi). How do you know being "forced" to have these units is detrimental? You might have a couple less infestors or mutas, but you can easily make up for it by USING the Viper's other abilities....
On October 25 2011 20:32 NeonFox wrote: I've said this before in other threads but there also is another problem, scouting. Right now as soon as lair is finished I pay 50/50 and morph and overseer and scout. In hots as it is now, we would have to pay 100/100 for overlord speed and wait until it's finished to scout. I don't now about you I'm not sending my 200 gas viper into the opponents base to scout oO
This. Scouting timings are very important and very precise for Zerg players above plat these days. We just can't afford a blow like that to our scouting atm. :<
Maybe if they made OL speed a hatch tech upgrade tho that only took a spawning pool or evo to start, then this kinda change wouldn't really step on anyones toes.
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
welcome to the world of PvT - where going observer first for detection is obligatory
not that I like that blizz also does this to zerg, but maybe it helps zerg-players to understand PvT-problems a little bit better
why would zerg need to understand pvt problems ? :o it has nothing to do with them, not to say let other suffer so they know your pain is bad justification for anything
On October 25 2011 21:51 FallDownMarigold wrote: Just to entertain the idea... So what if you have to make vipers? Assuming the Viper keeps its other abilities too (you're assuming that things will change in the game due to the Viper as currently defined), they'll be QUITE the complement to ANY Zerg composition.
Well, I don't like 'having' to go for a tech path once I hit lair, I prefer being able to chose what I want to make.
Now if viper is made from a hatchery my fear is too high ... if I need to make a tech building to get it, I think it's dumb
On October 25 2011 21:09 Xenomorph wrote: Consider the following. Cast on an armored burrow unit (like roach) during an engagement burrow said unit. The enemy now has to focus on your burrowed unit to get rid of detection but your army is swarming on top of it.
It's still hell of a techy and APM intensive way to have detection during battle. Not to even mention the orb which telegraphs "burrowed detection unit here".
Compare this to flying cloaked observer following the army or two-three saved up scans in the pocket and it's kinda laughable.
On October 25 2011 21:51 FallDownMarigold wrote: Just to entertain the idea... So what if you have to make vipers? Assuming the Viper keeps its other abilities too (you're assuming that things will change in the game due to the Viper as currently defined), they'll be QUITE the complement to ANY Zerg composition.
Well, I don't like 'having' to go for a tech path once I hit lair, I prefer being able to chose what I want to make.
Now if viper is made from a hatchery my fear is too high ... if I need to make a tech building to get it, I think it's dumb
Do you also dislike "having" to make queens?
It's just part of the zerg race. If you want to survive, you need to do it. I don't expect there'll be a tech building for it.
Also I would think the orb wouldn't be visible if a unit is burrowed.
Is there any evidence for the assumption that the Viper is build from the Lair itself instead from Larva and is there any evidence for the assumtion that is does not requite a tech building?
theres a reason why they make these things called beta´s and this is when they test this shit on a larger scale after testing it in their own company, its far too early to go to conclusions when they announce a few units that may or may not be in the game itself and may or may not be as strong as they are now. if there is a major problem like this IT WILL get fixed in the beta... or even before that
I'd say make the overlord speed upgrade also give detection. I mean, in BW detection was on all overlords and DTs were still viable. Dunno why I'd be a problem here.
In a way it is a cool spell, being able to make any unit a detector, but in a way it sucks too, like you pointed out. The cool part about it is that your opponent can't really avoid your detection because they are not aware of which units are detectors and which aren't (unless there is some sort of animation or something that I am not aware of), and you can give detection to units like mutas or something, which as someone said can be very handy for hunting down banshees or observers.
However, the downfall is that you MUST build vipers in pretty much every game now, and not just one but many. The reason you need to build many is because each viper can only grant detection to a unit one time and that's it (that's what I've read anyway), so if that units dies you need a new viper to grant a new unit detection. Also, since the unit needs to be near the viper it kinda defeats the purpose of the spell. Why not just make the viper a detector then? If I could make all of my queens detectors and then bring my vipers along with my army and know that I am fairly safe from banshees or DTs, then that is a good spell. But having my viper leashed to a unit just so I can have detection is pretty cheap. Also, is there any way to tell if the viper is within range of that unit or not? Are one of those big rings (think siege tank range indicator) going to be placed around my detector unit at all times? I just don't quite understand how this is going to work.
Personally, if the viper didn't have to be chained to the detector unit I would cast it on queens and maybe burrowed swarm hosts which I would leave defending (just one for DTs/drops/zergling counter attacks etc). As for having detection in my army itself, I'd probably cast it on other vipers since they are flying units and seem to be fairly fast. I don't like the idea of giving detection to a roach or zergling or something and having to keep track of it so that I can recast detection when it dies...
Yes Blizzard, remove the dedicated, tanky detector and replace it with a one time, 200 gas spell that you put onto a unit of the race created around weak individual units that die a lot and are replaced quickly. It's almost as if you've got no fucking clue what you're doing with your design choices.
While it says in the blizzard documentation that this is a one time spell, people who were actually using the units at blizzcon are saying that you can cast it as many times as you want (assuming you have energy). Sounds like the one-time thing was changed between when the documentation was made and the latest build to run at Blizzcon.
So yeah, don't worry about the detector thing. It won't be a problem. The only thing I worry about is the lack of early scouting.
On October 25 2011 23:49 grs wrote: Is there any evidence for the assumption that the Viper is build from the Lair itself instead from Larva and is there any evidence for the assumtion that is does not requite a tech building?
On October 26 2011 00:00 ApBuLLet wrote: However, the downfall is that you MUST build vipers in pretty much every game now, and not just one but many. The reason you need to build many is because each viper can only grant detection to a unit one time and that's it (that's what I've read anyway), so if that units dies you need a new viper to grant a new unit detection.
Im pretty sure, it means that the Viper can use ocular parasite anytime it has 50 energy. It just can't use it on the exact same unit twice. Though their is no need to do so if that unit is still alive, it already has detection.
You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
The overseer should be unlocked by the evolution chamber, but contaminate should remain a lair tech ability.
That way you don't break ZvZ, yet all early game zerg detection is taken care of . The evo is needed for spores either way - you're not making game breaking changes, and then you don't have to remove the overseer and screw with zerg detection.
Really not a fan of the proposed viper detection change.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
Hmm...not sure. I always thought it would be people that end their sentences with "lol", when they have no real point to make. Last time I checked, Terrans were using scan, because they don't have a missile turret in their backpack when their army moves out.
Anyways, this was not about balance, it was to talk about our options for detection with the Overseer removed. I got some useful information and some others too I hope.
On October 25 2011 23:43 Inf-badguy wrote: Give this ability to queens at lair tech for 25 energy. Problem solved.
If it was temporary, for say, 10s, i'd agree on this. It would work similar to scan for terran as a means of emergency detection.
However, if it was permanent, where would be the point of having cloak in game if detection is so cheap and readily available ?
In WoL, zerg had the easiest time to get permanent, moving detection (i'm obviously ignoring scan here). Now it's going to be a little harder but getting a viper before banshees or DTs show up at your base shouldn't be a big problem. Maybe you'll have to face a contain until you get it and defend with spores in the meantime.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
...scan
It'll be impossible to do a midgame push against anyone that has cloaked units without a viper. It was convenient to bring an overseer in a midgame push in case there was a hidden DT in the army or a cloaked banshee. To ask for a 200 gas detection unit is a bit steep.
My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.
On October 26 2011 02:44 Bagration wrote: My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.
Have a look at the video on page one of this thread. The unit gets an orb on his head.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
...scan
It'll be impossible to do a midgame push against anyone that has cloaked units without a viper. It was convenient to bring an overseer in a midgame push in case there was a hidden DT in the army or a cloaked banshee. To ask for a 200 gas detection unit is a bit steep.
Terrans can't effectively push against a DT-toss without a raven either. Scan is good enough to kill off one or two DTs but unless you never dropped a single mule and saved up all energy, you still need a raven or a competent toss will force at least one scan per DT.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
Hmm...not sure. I always thought it would be people that end their sentences with "lol", when they have no real point to make. Last time I checked, Terrans were using scan, because they don't have a missile turret in their backpack when their army moves out.
Anyways, this was not about balance, it was to talk about our options for detection with the Overseer removed. I got some useful information and some others too I hope.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
...scan
It'll be impossible to do a midgame push against anyone that has cloaked units without a viper. It was convenient to bring an overseer in a midgame push in case there was a hidden DT in the army or a cloaked banshee. To ask for a 200 gas detection unit is a bit steep.
Yeah, especially when its other spells such as Autoturrets and Seeker Missles are only mediocre, too. Oh wait, you're talking about the Viper?
I think getting rid of the overseer was a good idea way to easy for an unprepared Zerg to get instant detection but at the same time if u had a spore crawler in place at your third but no overseer dt were very strong at killin spore and going to town. I am thinking parasite queens for detection may become standard also maybe burrowing a zergling in your mineral line and parasiting seems like it might be a cool idea. plus I have a feeling the viper will be a unit Zerg makes alot so u will be able to have numerous units who can detect. I would say lowering the cost of overlord speed upgrade should be done to have lair scouting to be fair. Another cool thin would be if Zerg could use it on enemy units imagine using it on a siege tank or colossi
On October 26 2011 02:44 Bagration wrote: My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.
Have a look at the video on page one of this thread. The unit gets an orb on his head.
That doesn't answer the question. It tells us that the Zerg player can easily identify the detector (the orb), but we don't know if enemy players can.
I think that there are good and bad things about this change but ultimately I think that spore crawlers at each expo will now be standard spore and 1-2 spines like the pros do when dts are on the map.
On October 26 2011 02:44 Bagration wrote: My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.
Have a look at the video on page one of this thread. The unit gets an orb on his head.
That doesn't answer the question. It tells us that the Zerg player can easily identify the detector (the orb), but we don't know if enemy players can.
I assumed it will be seen by everybody and I am sure it will be, but you are right, the video does not show that.
Actually, defensively I think the best solution is a decector Zergling that is burrowed in your mineral line. Very fast if necessary and impossible for dt to kill without an obs.
Early DT pushes will be awesome for the P to deny the zerg the third and get mapcontrol. Also I can see terran going banshee's just to deny the third more easily. Hopefully they decide to keep the overseer or give us something else to have a mobile detection unit
Protoss deals with the need of Robo then observer, which is a dedicate tech path, so is the same boat. Terrans maybe are, like Dustin recognize in his interview, kinda unbalanced in this aspect like in anything else, they are more "complete" than the others, but Z in hots will not be "the" unbalanced race in detection.
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
Welcome to being protoss, where robo is mandatory if you ever want to not die to burrowed roaches, DTs, or cloaked bancheese.
RAAAAAAAWR RAGE OVER POWERED UNDER POWERED RAGE RAGE RAGE.
None of these units are even confirmed. The devs aren't making arbitrary changes. They won't leave zerg detectionless or "pidgeonholed"
Detectors are good. You should want to get them. Why are protoss still bitching that they need observers? THEY'RE USEFUL.
waaaaaaah, It takes away from building your colossus for a bit. Here's a thought - time your unit production better. Terrans who don't techswitch in the most reactionary way almost always lose.
personally, I think that just the viper is a bit too hard for detection all by itself. I bet we'll see the overseer again, sans any abilities other than speed, armor, and detection.
They mentioned they are watching it close to make sure it is affordable and accessible. But they also love making races different for difference sake... so it may be both good and bad for Zerg.
Duct Tape solution: Upgrade overlord speed, fly them with your army with the generate creep toggled on. Bring a spore crawler or 2 with army... burrow in overlord poop when needed. Would give some extra AA as well.
Detectors are good. You should want to get them. Why are protoss still bitching that they need observers? THEY'RE USEFUL.
waaaaaaah, It takes away from building your colossus for a bit. Here's a thought - time your unit production better. Terrans who don't techswitch in the most reactionary way almost always lose.
You're missing the point. Nobody complains about having to build observers once you have a robo. The problem is that any game where you don't get detection you risk a build order loss, and so there's a huge incentive to go robo immediately rather than stargate or templar.
Having played with vipers at Blizzcon the only real complaint I have is losing overseers for cheap scouting. They are kind of expensive but they're also really really good, beyond providing detection. And as has already been mentioned the parasite isn't one time use despite what the unit description says.
It's been said by a few others in this thread but i'll re-post it: as of the Blizzcon build, a single Viper can cast detection on as many units as it has energy. If you get a viper or two early and use all of its energy on detection, you can end up feeling like a Starcraft 1 Zerg because all of your overlords have detection. However, you really don't want to use all your Viper energy on detection because its "real" spells are so freaking strong.
On October 26 2011 06:02 gmorf33 wrote: Duct Tape solution: Upgrade overlord speed, fly them with your army with the generate creep toggled on. Bring a spore crawler or 2 with army... burrow in overlord poop when needed. Would give some extra AA as well.
excellent idea. when my army gets ambushed by an army with dt's i'll stay where i'm at and keep my overlords safe so they can puke creep so i can activate my detectors so i can attack the shit two-shotting my stuff. or i could just run away back to my base where my detectors are already activated.
This is going to be ridiculously awesome Zerg will just make vipers and make all queens detectors Have like 8 queens and spread the creep all over the map - You will always have detection and think of all that transfusion Protoss would have no map contol It would be decent against terran as well, I think
On October 26 2011 11:15 Piousflea wrote: It's been said by a few others in this thread but i'll re-post it: as of the Blizzcon build, a single Viper can cast detection on as many units as it has energy. If you get a viper or two early and use all of its energy on detection, you can end up feeling like a Starcraft 1 Zerg because all of your overlords have detection. However, you really don't want to use all your Viper energy on detection because its "real" spells are so freaking strong.
Then it goes the other way. I can leave 2 vipers at base and just parasite every single overlord that comes out. Now it'll be just like bw except much more tedious.
the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW
I think people forgot that many standard zerg builds in zvt and zvp both call for evo chambers before lair, and a spore crawler is just 75 minerals, and costs no gas. Detection woes before you have 200 gas are not an issue currently, so why would they be then.
On November 06 2011 09:20 Hambone636 wrote: This is going to be ridiculously awesome Zerg will just make vipers and make all queens detectors Have like 8 queens and spread the creep all over the map - You will always have detection and think of all that transfusion Protoss would have no map contol It would be decent against terran as well, I think
You are right about one thing, that is ridiculous.
I think it makes for neat micro opportunities where your opponent has to see which unit is the detector and has to try to snipe it. Burrowed infestors detecting other burrowed infestors sounds pretty cool also. It might be a little more tedious that using overseers. My main worry would be the amount of energy that it will cost or if it is limited to 1 detector to viper (heard this rumor somewhere).
On October 25 2011 19:37 teide wrote: Dt and banshee kill spore crawler so fast. Zerg dont have scan -.-
Make an extra queen or two, save up energy for a transfuse, and once there are vipers on the field, dump all that energy into creep, and your creep spread will be great really quick.
On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote: the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW
If terran goes cloak banshee and you don't have observers you're in trouble, you have to throw cannons down everywhere to avoid taking tons of damage while you get observers out, and you instantly lose the ability to leave your base until robo. Same applies to zerg with burrowed roaches, although we usually put cannons at our walls against zerg, so we just lose the ability to leave our base until observer. Same applies to infestors.
They need to remove the detection function from the Viper and bring back the Overseer, just stripped of its abilities. I cannot see how they are going to be able to balance the Viper when it is simultaneously a necessity given it's detection role, but also a powerful caster unit and siege breaker that single-handedly changes the tides of a specific battle. These roles are in direct conflict and pose major complications when it comes to determining the costs and tech-requirements of the Viper as a unit.
I really hope they see this problem and resolve it. I also don't like that they have make Zerg early game scouting even worse than it currently is.
You could have 1 Viper designated for creating detectors. Upgrade overlord speed and after you get a Viper morphed in, just have him sit at base slowly making every overlord you have into a detector. I see that as a much cheaper alternative to overseer
On November 06 2011 12:36 Supamang wrote: I dont see much of a problem.
You could have 1 Viper designated for creating detectors. Upgrade overlord speed and after you get a Viper morphed in, just have him sit at base slowly making every overlord you have into a detector. I see that as a much cheaper alternative to overseer
Yeah, but the viper can only cast the eye stalk thing once.
Use ocular parasite on a roach with tunneling claws - you now have a mobile cloaked detector with more HP than an obs (only disadvantage is that it doesn't fly).
On November 06 2011 12:36 Supamang wrote: I dont see much of a problem.
You could have 1 Viper designated for creating detectors. Upgrade overlord speed and after you get a Viper morphed in, just have him sit at base slowly making every overlord you have into a detector. I see that as a much cheaper alternative to overseer
Yeah, but the viper can only cast the eye stalk thing once.
You should really read the thread.
It could cast it multiple times in the Blizzcon build that people played.
On November 06 2011 12:04 Aberu wrote: I think people forgot that many standard zerg builds in zvt and zvp both call for evo chambers before lair, and a spore crawler is just 75 minerals, and costs no gas. Detection woes before you have 200 gas are not an issue currently, so why would they be then.
On November 06 2011 09:20 Hambone636 wrote: This is going to be ridiculously awesome Zerg will just make vipers and make all queens detectors Have like 8 queens and spread the creep all over the map - You will always have detection and think of all that transfusion Protoss would have no map contol It would be decent against terran as well, I think
You are right about one thing, that is ridiculous.
while that does sound pretty awesome lol you probably dont want to have 16 supply in queens before you have your power units out like the ultra or broodlord
A lot of people are suggesting casting it on a burrowed unit like a roach with tunneling claws. The problem is that a lot of borrowable units lose sight range while burrowed, roaches probably more so then any other unit. So your detection range will probably be changed as well, as it would be pretty weird for a unit to detect something it can't even see yet. So if you want to cast it on mobile burrowed units (roach/ HotS baneling) your "Zerg observer" will probably only have a range of 3-4.
I doubt it will be a problem at all as most zerg use spores as detection a lot more than anything, overseers are rarely ever used except to scout opponent's base, the only instance I can think of where it was crucial to have overseers in ur army is when someone got mothership late game...
For anyone that's played hots beta custom map* and played some games as Z, it feels weird as hell to have to build a viper each time u want 1 detector unit.
I don't know about others that main Zerg and have tried it, but it feel awkward as hell to give 1 random unit detection and then it dies and you have to rebuild a 200 gas viper. To me it's the same as the shredder. People that haven't played with it think it's amazing, but it's just terrible lol.
Don't get me wrong, the spells are powerful, but having to build 1 to get detection each time is just bad.
On November 06 2011 13:51 avilo wrote: For anyone that's played hots beta and played some games as Z, it feels weird as hell to have to build a viper each time u want 1 detector unit.
I don't know about others that main Zerg and have tried it, but it feel awkward as hell to give 1 random unit detection and then it dies and you have to rebuild a 200 gas viper. To me it's the same as the shredder. People that haven't played with it think it's amazing, but it's just terrible lol.
Don't get me wrong, the spells are powerful, but having to build 1 to get detection each time is just bad.
MVP didn't seem to think the shredder sucked as him vs nestea looked gross :D.
But yes it already sounds weird and hopefully gets changed because that's stupid to have to do 200 gas to get detection on 1 unit that if sniped you are boned detetion wise -_-...
On November 06 2011 13:51 avilo wrote: For anyone that's played hots beta and played some games as Z, it feels weird as hell to have to build a viper each time u want 1 detector unit.
I don't know about others that main Zerg and have tried it, but it feel awkward as hell to give 1 random unit detection and then it dies and you have to rebuild a 200 gas viper. To me it's the same as the shredder. People that haven't played with it think it's amazing, but it's just terrible lol.
Don't get me wrong, the spells are powerful, but having to build 1 to get detection each time is just bad.
MVP didn't seem to think the shredder sucked as him vs nestea looked gross :D.
But yes it already sounds weird and hopefully gets changed because that's stupid to have to do 200 gas to get detection on 1 unit that if sniped you are boned detetion wise -_-...
Two players who dunno wtf they are doing and are just messing with the new units doesn't mean jack shit. When you first try new game you end up trying to "use" the new units instead of just playing good lol so don't make much of that video.
Although, on that point, it seems like the shredder in the blizzcon videos is different from the one in the custom map because the custom map one has less radius or something, so that could be why. As is, in the hots custom map they're pointless.
I just.... this... what? I facepalmed so hard hearing that zerg would HAVE to make a viper for detection. That kinda means the only form of detection that would get up in time for banshees would be spore crawlers, unless you teched up really fast as zerg. I think having the ability work on enemy units and having it the same as the SC1 queen's parasite would have been far, far better, even though it's not really good that way anyways. As a terran player who was thinking of switching to Z, I'm reconsidering. Nexus recall/Mech terran sounds like more fun than swarm host/viper... though moving burrowed banelings would bring me such joy.
I think the Viper could cripple Zerg detection. On one hand you have spore crawlers which are amazing, but don't really work as mobile detection. Then you have the overseer, which is too expensive to have at every base but is there for the "OH SHIT" moments but has absolutely no utility in battles except for being a mobile detector. The problem with giving a mobile detector unit battle abilities that can be used in combat and can be winning or losing is that you have to make it slow to get, weak, or expensive. If you make it slow to get, it has no use for "Oh shit" detection, if you make it weak it's only use is "Oh shit" detection, but if you make it expensive, it's too hard for Zerg to get by the time the opponent has stealth units. Another Problem of this unit is how it is going to be balanced, it can turn the tides of games, between winning and losing and will take a long time to figure out what needs to happen to it. In conclusion I feel as though the overseer would be fine to stay, it should be used as a primary source of detection while the Viper could be used as a secondary form and it's primary use would be a caster in battles.
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP:
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP:
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong.
On November 06 2011 13:55 ReignFayth wrote: why would you need detection that badly though? zergs always defend banshees and DTs with spores... mothership is going to be removed...
I'm pretty sure zerg is going to be perfectly fine
You serious? And how are Zergs supposed to defend against cloaked Ghosts, Banshee and DT in the middle of the map or in the opponent base? No, fungal is not good enough or reliable enough. Why don't we just remove Scan from terran then...
How are Zergs supposed to defend against burrowed Roaches or new Burrow move banelings?
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP:
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
The guy needs to edit his OP to put that at the top of the thread so people will stop responding without being informed. That or I hope a mod can pop a warning or some red text to tell people how it is. Or maybe it doesnt matter because we dont even know if Blizzards gonna change it by the time beta comes out.
If it is true that the Viper can cast it as many times as it has energy for, then I still think keeping a Viper for designated detector creation on OLs would be an incredibly good alternative to Overseers.
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP:
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong.
Did you miss the part where i said "This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums"
Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP:
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong.
Did you miss the part where i said "This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums"
Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
I was agreeing with you. I'm saying a lot of the misinformation is being spread by that mod that popped up on NA. It has a lot of things wrong, and iirc, the Viper detection spell is one of them. The information you posted is correct. -_-
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP:
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong.
Did you miss the part where i said "This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums"
Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
I was agreeing with you. I'm saying a lot of the misinformation is being spread by that mod that popped up on NA. It has a lot of things wrong, and iirc, the Viper detection spell is one of them. The information you posted is correct. -_-
Apologies, i thought you were saying the guys from Blizzcon were getting there info from that mod.
I think Blizzard will be forced to change this in time. It just does not seem to be viable, or at least it forces Viper tech so much. The low tier players will have so many problems with this Banshee + DT will crush them.
I think they should just add a 200\200 upgrade to overlords that grants detection.
On November 06 2011 12:31 SpaceYeti wrote: They need to remove the detection function from the Viper and bring back the Overseer, just stripped of its abilities. I cannot see how they are going to be able to balance the Viper when it is simultaneously a necessity given it's detection role, but also a powerful caster unit and siege breaker that single-handedly changes the tides of a specific battle. These roles are in direct conflict and pose major complications when it comes to determining the costs and tech-requirements of the Viper as a unit.
I really hope they see this problem and resolve it. I also don't like that they have make Zerg early game scouting even worse than it currently is.
Would be neat if they made overseer like really cheap and just made it detect too yeah. Like 50/25 or something.
I'm concerned because I play the spanishiwa style a lot and that relies on spending the gas to morph an overseeer next to the enemy's base immediately after lair tech. This won't be as viable anymore because overlords are just too slow. Gonna have to figure something else out
You want to take a 3rd vs a protoss who opened DTs
You want to scout the opponent's base after your sacrificial overlord failed and didn't see anything
The overseer was good for fast response detection that was also able to move at a decent rate. Having to get a viper just to get a third, because a DT sits there and blocks it is not only very expensive, but also takes quite long. I also see certain protoss all ins or builds becoming a lot more difficult to deal with simply due to the fact that you won't be able to scout properly anymore.
The only solution I see is to remove the detector role from the viper. It just doesn't work to have a powerful spellcaster be your only mobile source of detection. Imagine if HTs had a similar spell and the observer was removed. A trade-off just won't work and I'm almost certain blizzard will change this.
I'm not worried about balance, there are always other ways to balance.
I don't like detection being hard to tech to though. It results in people gambling with cloaked all-ins or greedy builds where they skip detection and thereby get a huge economic advantage.
On November 06 2011 21:31 QooQ wrote: I would prefer they just give overlords detection again like in brood war, I don't see what the problem with that would be.
It would almost completely shut down any cloak base play vs Zerg. this gets worse since we don't have corsairs (which i heard are essential for a "bisu build"). So you would have a feature which can just be used against 2/3 of all games.
I'd like to put the question the other way round: why should Overlords have detection?
I think it depends on how noticeable it is if the unit is a detector. If it doesn't show which unit the detector is then it could be beneficial as they couldn't snipe them as they did overseers. However, more than the detection part, how is Zerg supposed to scout now? As a lot of others have said, detection will still likely be fine, but scouting is taking a big blow.. And it was already fairly bad.
On November 06 2011 21:31 QooQ wrote: I would prefer they just give overlords detection again like in brood war, I don't see what the problem with that would be.
It would almost completely shut down any cloak base play vs Zerg. this gets worse since we don't have corsairs (which i heard are essential for a "bisu build"). So you would have a feature which can just be used against 2/3 of all games.
I'd like to put the question the other way round: why should Overlords have detection?
Agreed, just keep overseers, no one is complaining about them and since the recent patch is see pro players using them in nearly every game.
I really prefer the overseer, even with it's abilities that didn't get much use, although I REALLY like the changeling. Possibly having detection nerfed just because Viper may be too strong in certain matchups is not something that sounds very appealling to me. This also forces players to get Vipers without a possible need for them, which may limit the use of other units if I'm forced to make vipers.
On top of that, the units I can see most worth it as detection for me is either a speed overlord, or another Viper, which either drives the cost and time of mobile detection up, or forces me to have to babysit my detection viper. See the problem I'm thinking of is zerg units are usually weak, and expendable, so it makes detectors for zerg a lot easier to spot out and kill, esp if its visible. Even if its not visible except by detection, I can see good protoss players abusing this and going DT's.
I'd honestly rather lose an overlord or two than have to worry about getting speed, or worrying about my detection "units".
First of all, I don't ever see taking the detection away from the viper. Unless it is extremely fragile, I don't ever see using that ability (Maybe for a muta since those should live if you control them properly). But the cost does worry me. Zerg detection options have always been slightly weaker than other races and I see this worstening ht e problem. What wrong with just leaving the overseer in?
On November 06 2011 23:57 noemercy wrote: My question is will your units still be able to detect while burrowed. Burrowing a decetion zergling at all of my bases seems like a good idea.
Very creative and effective imo.
As others have said I believe the big problem is the lack of midgame scouting. The fastest you can get overlord speed with a 14 gas pool build, is 7.45. Thats pretty late for scouting certain all ins.
I think sky zerg will rule the heavens in hots, just look at this combo; broodlords with detection, corruptors vs air, vipers vs clumps off marines, stalkers, hydras. I can't see any better combo, it's the ultimate swarm.
On November 06 2011 23:57 noemercy wrote: My question is will your units still be able to detect while burrowed. Burrowing a decetion zergling at all of my bases seems like a good idea.
Even if they could, the vision of a burrowed unit isn't particularly far so to be useful it'd probably need unburrowing.
since it is hard for the opponent to scout your detectors, building invisible units against a zerg will be a high risk gamble, so i'd expect we will not see it in Hots very often ..
My guess? It'll be really good if the Zerg player has the money, and really bad if they don't. I'm going to guess that it's going to be heavily rebalanced in beta, and maybe the Ocular Parasite ability will be given to a completely different unit or will be given a cooldown so that one Viper can use many Ocular Parasites. The way things appear to be developing right now, a Protoss who goes for a fast Dark Shrine will be able to defend a significant amount of Zerg aggression very easily and prevent a third from going up at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). How much havoc can some DTs or Banshees wreck till you can have another detector up?
Just wanted to point out. Every mobile detection suffers from that weakness. If it's gone, it's gone for good.
I'm not sure of the alternatives. If it was energy-based, it makes Zerg pretty bullet-proof against Cloakplay if Vipers could keep recasting. 2/3 of the Cloaked units in game do not have AA abilities. None of the burrowed units that can attack from the ground has AA as well.
I'd actually prefer if they removed the ability from the Viper and just kept Overseers. I wouldn't want Zerg to have another reason to make more of a unit that has amazing abilities.
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote: the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW
Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight.
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
Welcome to the Robo techpath in PvT.
its not the same thing..... zerg pretty much have to spend 200/200 everytime they need detection. and guess what happens if the unit u put the detection on dies? u have to spend ANOTHER 200/200 for another viper with an eye. its only 1 eye per viper. so if u put the detection on a overlord for example and the overlord dies ur pretty much screwed unless u spend a tremendous amount of money on vipers.
its stupid as hell. they should have just left the fucking overseer in, it was actually the best scout zerg had and wasnt hurting anything. there was NO REASON to remove that unit other then "herp derp, well we got to remove something! hmm, lets try overseer and fuck with zergs detection a bit". i mean seriously... there was no reason to remove the overseer nor carrier. mothership made sense, but all they did with Mship was move the fucking gimmick of it to the terran race because dustin just needs to make terrans as cool as holy shit.
I hate this idea... I thought they were going to be making detection better, not worse. I'd rather have the option of the overseer and the viper, than be limited to just one. Or why don't we just go back to the broodwar days and give all overlords vision.
I'd say it's not as bad as all that depending on how games will start playing out in HotS. My guess is that making vipers will become standard because of the powerful spells anyways, so you'll have detection on top of it pretty much as a bonus. And hey, there's games where you might not even need the detection, so you'll have a cloud or a snatched siege tank that much earlier. I don't see it as a trade-off at all.
As for your detector dying and 100 minerals plus 200 gas going down the drain, that's something that Blizzard can still easily change. Maybe they'll just let us use the ocular ability as much as we want, make it free energy-wise, make the Viper build faster, etc. etc. I'm sure there are good was to balance this.
On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote: the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW
Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight.
How did dark templar get buffed?
I don't agree that zerg detection just got much worse. From what I have heard and seen from people playing the actuall beta the spell for detection is not a one time use so I will trust that information. The only difference in this case is that you know need a good unit for mobile detection, that you only really need one of. 200 gas sure but that is the same for ravens right? also it is stright after lair insted of a certen techpath like the Robo is for protoss. And the observer still costs 75 gas for a really weak but cloaked detection.
All in all I don't see the detection so much worse for zerg you still have spores for dt rushes and banshees so it isn't like you will die if you don't rush lair. Sure it might be harder to take a 3rd and 4th before lair but I really don't see that as a big problem.
I'm concerned about this for several reasons both for and against zerg.
For example, this makes it a lot easier for zergs to snipe observers. With more emphasis on burrowed units and only one legitimate form of detection for Protoss, it could be a problem.
Also, it seems weird to have to build 3 vipers to have 3 detectors.
Oddly enough I kinda think what will happen is it will encourage zerg players to get overlord speed and they'll parasite one overlord and bring a massive pack of them wherever they go.
Broodwar: overlords come with detection at no additional cost. WOL: with lair, at the cost of 50m 50g you get one detector. HOTS: with lair, at the cost of 100m 200g? And supply, You get to cast detection.
Seems like a drastic nerf to me.
There are a few things I'm not clear of about the viper. Exact cost, mineral, gas and supply? Energy cost of ocular parasite? Is it 1 OP per viper or 1 viper can cast it many times? If 1 viper can cast many times, can it make 4 detectors at a time or is it only 1 OP active at a time?
In the HOTS only terran will have imba detection. Protoss lacks of detection pretty badly, one mistake with obersevers can cost the game !
But this new schema with Viper seems pretty good trade upon overseers. But Zerg almost always will have to go Viper tech !!
But that's true to Protoss to have somekind of detection he has to go robo tech. Only Terran don't suffer from that because he'll always get OC. A good terran doesn't need a unit for detection.
Let's see how Zerg will use this interesting unit !
muta with parasite is to op against toss anyway so they will change it alot for sure. Just like not knowing is to much for ghosts. Other then that spores are terrible good detection after the buff, taking the overseers job. And well zergs delay lair for so long most of the time, that overseers aren't hitting a scouting timing, so they use slow ovis anyway. And well you want ovi speed anyway :3. Mosts zergs should admit they never got an overseer anyway, and even if they did only a small part used their abilites. And you can do well without them. I get them almost every game and used the abilities alot, so op those changelings. (got overseers more often the i did get speed) You really notice that people have no idea how to position them in most games ^.^ . And i am curious to see if the changed cloak either costs more energy for the terran, or that its complelty canceled after an fungal.
I don't see the point in detection for the viper. It makes it really awkward to balance seeing how it looks like the viper will have some really powerful spells. But we need detection at a reasonable time and cost. I mean if costs 200 gas, that's friggin' awful. Terran at least has scan until they can get a raven out. If the viper costs any tech at all, it will severely restrict zerg options.
I don't understand why the viper is eliminating the overseer at all. Can't we just have another caster?
On November 07 2011 06:53 namste wrote: I still think that Viper should be morphed from an overseer. As in Overlord -> Overseer -> Viper.
In that case they should change the name and look of the unit. So it's like the Overweight.
why can't they just give the occular parasite spell to the queen? it would make so much more sense and make the queen much more interesting as a unit. it will truly make the queen the ultimate bitch of the zerg army. she's forced to sit and lay eggs, to heal your shit, to guard the hatch from small attacks, to lay down creep for your units, and now she has to pull out her eye when you need to get detection.
A few weeks ago, on SotG, ARtosis was joking saying that the abduct ability would not only pull colossi out of the death ball, but will also cause all forcefields to be wrecked (cos the colossus steps on it on his way out). Is there any truth in this? Or was it really just a joke?
I feel that the rationale behind the removal of the Overseer was completely flawed. It was argued that the Overseer *Creates free supply", By being a unit with mostly useless offensive spells, and really only being good for scouting and detecting overall, I really don't see why this argument was not applied to Orbital Commands... If anything, the overseer was underpowered.
I really don't think giving OP to queen is fair. Mobile detection at only cost of one or 2 less creep tumor? Not taking up space for other units? (productionwise). Also it only costing minerals is really bad. I know I know that Scann is only a mineral opportunity cost as well, but it isn't permanent either.
the overseer is not useless, its just underused. the problem with the overseer is that the game is not figured out enough, so nobody is able to use it properly. i'm not a pro but i use overseers in zvp to delay robo production, and it's quite effective. i think it's a cool unit and blizzard should keep it in the game, maybe buff the speed/health.
On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote: the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW
Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight.
How did dark templar get buffed?
I don't agree that zerg detection just got much worse. From what I have heard and seen from people playing the actuall beta the spell for detection is not a one time use so I will trust that information. The only difference in this case is that you know need a good unit for mobile detection, that you only really need one of. 200 gas sure but that is the same for ravens right? also it is stright after lair insted of a certen techpath like the Robo is for protoss. And the observer still costs 75 gas for a really weak but cloaked detection.
All in all I don't see the detection so much worse for zerg you still have spores for dt rushes and banshees so it isn't like you will die if you don't rush lair. Sure it might be harder to take a 3rd and 4th before lair but I really don't see that as a big problem.
terran also have turrets which is common in basicly all matchups except non bio TvT so think of those like spores, then scans, and also raven.
protoss have observer/cannons while zerg had overseer/spores.
It just seems so stupid to have lair needed for detection as zerg..the race is supposed to be mobile, and how fast is the viper?
Just wanted to say that while most units lose their sight radius when burrowed, banelings don't! and in HOTS they can burrow move. FTW!
Or you could use infestors, since they have a sight radius of 10, burrow move at lair tech and also don't lose that sight radius when burrowed. But I think it's more fun to imagine the little baneling getting the burrow move detection job, he'd be like 'Score! No blowing up for me!', it'd be what every baneling wants to be when they grow up.
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP:
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect).
And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease
Can someone confirm?
I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep.
It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want.
This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums.
The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous.
It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong.
Did you miss the part where i said "This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums"
Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
Also, OP on a mutalisk will be strong, especially for killing observers, banshees, dts, nuking ghosts.
Giving it to the queen you could just make it 200 energy. It's unlikely you'll have a queen at 200 energy before lair timing anyway. But if you do that which of the queen's abilities do you take away? Blizz would probably want to avoid having four abilities on the queen. Maybe you could spawn creep tumors from the hatchery on a long timer? Probably too complicated, I guess four abilities would be possible.
On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote: the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW
Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight.
How did dark templar get buffed?
I don't agree that zerg detection just got much worse. From what I have heard and seen from people playing the actuall beta the spell for detection is not a one time use so I will trust that information. The only difference in this case is that you know need a good unit for mobile detection, that you only really need one of. 200 gas sure but that is the same for ravens right? also it is stright after lair insted of a certen techpath like the Robo is for protoss. And the observer still costs 75 gas for a really weak but cloaked detection.
All in all I don't see the detection so much worse for zerg you still have spores for dt rushes and banshees so it isn't like you will die if you don't rush lair. Sure it might be harder to take a 3rd and 4th before lair but I really don't see that as a big problem.
terran also have turrets which is common in basicly all matchups except non bio TvT so think of those like spores, then scans, and also raven.
protoss have observer/cannons while zerg had overseer/spores.
It just seems so stupid to have lair needed for detection as zerg..the race is supposed to be mobile, and how fast is the viper?
Well yeah. didn't count static detection. turrents, spores, cannons are all equivalente. And lair is still needed for overseer, so the tech needed havn't changed. Only cost and utility really.
This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote: This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy...
that was before it cost 50/50 to morph into an overseer...
Now its actually a good price for its function.
And I don't think people don't like the viper, just that it doesn't really make sense as a replacement for the overseer. Why can't we just have an awesome caster without screwing up detection?
On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote: This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy...
the main complaint is the timing window, that vipers will take longer to hit the field than an overseer does
it's been confirmed that all vipers require is a lair, but its still unlikely the viper build time will be shorter than the overseer build time
no one is arguing that vipers aren't as useful as overseers for detection. the problem is that while zerg's ability to detect will overall be stronger, 2port banshee might become so powerful that it's no longer a cheese but a standard timing attack
i think it's a legitimate point, but banshee cloak is so prevalent in tvt that increasing the research time of cloak will probably be a net positive for the game overall. perhaps they could move it to the fusion cure, and make banshee cloaking a cheaper reserach, in order to slow down the timings to equalize with the longer build time of a viper
the bigger question to me, as a long time bw player, is why overlords needed to lose their detection in the first place, as i always thought it was easier to use dt vs zerg than terran or protoss
Eh well in my eyes i think that they (Blizzard) will have to think about this one. 200 gas seems a bit steep. especially since, depending on build time, could be tough to stop early DT harass
On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote: This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy...
the main complaint is the timing window, that vipers will take longer to hit the field than an overseer does
it's been confirmed that all vipers require is a lair, but its still unlikely the viper build time will be shorter than the overseer build time
no one is arguing that vipers aren't as useful as overseers for detection. the problem is that while zerg's ability to detect will overall be stronger, 2port banshee might become so powerful that it's no longer a cheese but a standard timing attack
i think it's a legitimate point, but banshee cloak is so prevalent in tvt that increasing the research time of cloak will probably be a net positive for the game overall. perhaps they could move it to the fusion cure, and make banshee cloaking a cheaper reserach, in order to slow down the timings to equalize with the longer build time of a viper
the bigger question to me, as a long time bw player, is why overlords needed to lose their detection in the first place, as i always thought it was easier to use dt vs zerg than terran or protoss
This is just so bad on so many levels. 200/200 Gas is not cheap at all and it doesn't just pop up, especially at the early-mid game if someone is rushing Cloak-shees.
Consider the Gas cost and time to actually get Cloakshees. Factory - 100 - 60s Starport - 100 - 50s Banshee - 100 - 60s Cloak - 200/200 - 110s
Now you're suggesting to add a Fusion Core on top of that? 150/150 +65s build time?
Lair - 100 Gas - 80s Viper - 200 Gas - Time Unknown Currently
Considering that it requires 500 Gas to get a Cloak-Shee out, and 100 Lair Gas + Viper's 200gas, the current system is fine as is.
I think Zergs underestimate the time it takes to actually get a Banshee out on the field with Cloak.
On November 07 2011 09:37 Vandersteen wrote: Eh well in my eyes i think that they (Blizzard) will have to think about this one. 200 gas seems a bit steep. especially since, depending on build time, could be tough to stop early DT harass
Oh, you know, because it's so hard to build spore crawlers. I think Blizzard is going to have their hands full balancing this unit. Given that it's the only unit capable of detection and giving detection, it's going to be almost mandatory. And each one of it's spells is absolutely badass. As it stands right now it is very powerful, so they can't have it too low on the tech tree. But if the enemy goes with a burrowed/cloaked unit the zerg player needs to get a viper otherwise they are stuck in their base and can only go as far as their creep is spread (spore crawlers). So zerg now has a unit that they have to make in order to have mobile detection, and it also comes with amazing spells. GL Blizz.
On November 07 2011 09:37 Vandersteen wrote: Eh well in my eyes i think that they (Blizzard) will have to think about this one. 200 gas seems a bit steep. especially since, depending on build time, could be tough to stop early DT harass
Oh, you know, because it's so hard to build spore crawlers. I think Blizzard is going to have their hands full balancing this unit. Given that it's the only unit capable of detection and giving detection, it's going to be almost mandatory. And each one of it's spells is absolutely badass. As it stands right now it is very powerful, so they can't have it too low on the tech tree. But if the enemy goes with a burrowed/cloaked unit the zerg player needs to get a viper otherwise they are stuck in their base and can only go as far as their creep is spread (spore crawlers). So zerg now has a unit that they have to make in order to have mobile detection, and it also comes with amazing spells. GL Blizz.
That's part of the problem. The Viper has amazing spells, Zergs aren't paying for just Mobile Detection and this point seems to be forgotten in this thread. They're paying the gas for one of their most important and useful spell-casters in the game.
The Viper is the newly-evolved Defiler replacement in HOTS. It's what the Raven should have been to Terrans (as the Science Vessel) in WOL.
scans are for the terran player an investment, because it does remove a mule for a period of time. So the terran does have the same detection as zerg if you make a corrupter with detection, and we count scans out. protoss and zerg: same stuff, robo and infestation pit is nearly the same amount of points across the tech tree, however robo can be seen at around 5-9 min while infestation pit is alot later. this might change in hots.
you need detection to counter: banshees ghosts dt's burrow observers creep tumors
because zerg does not make alot of structures at there bases since their "supply depots" fly around, they can have 1 spore crawler at each base which is an investment of 275 minerals when the zerg is on 2base. this will counter every kind of cloacked units from killing workers until viper tech is in hands of the zerg player. the only things i can see problematic is defensive dts/banshees, burrow roach micro in zvz (at opponents base if you have spores) or nukes since they have huge range and the ghost can go outside detection range. however protoss suffers from exactly the same problem, considering viper tech is as accsessable as observers is. protoss can aswell not remove creep tumors before observer tech.
tldr: i think its not gonna be "imbalanced" or a problem more than it is now.
On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote: This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy...
the main complaint is the timing window, that vipers will take longer to hit the field than an overseer does
it's been confirmed that all vipers require is a lair, but its still unlikely the viper build time will be shorter than the overseer build time
no one is arguing that vipers aren't as useful as overseers for detection. the problem is that while zerg's ability to detect will overall be stronger, 2port banshee might become so powerful that it's no longer a cheese but a standard timing attack
i think it's a legitimate point, but banshee cloak is so prevalent in tvt that increasing the research time of cloak will probably be a net positive for the game overall. perhaps they could move it to the fusion cure, and make banshee cloaking a cheaper reserach, in order to slow down the timings to equalize with the longer build time of a viper
the bigger question to me, as a long time bw player, is why overlords needed to lose their detection in the first place, as i always thought it was easier to use dt vs zerg than terran or protoss
This is just so bad on so many levels. 200/200 Gas is not cheap at all and it doesn't just pop up, especially at the early-mid game if someone is rushing Cloak-shees.
Consider the Gas cost and time to actually get Cloakshees. Factory - 100 - 60s Starport - 100 - 50s Banshee - 100 - 60s Cloak - 200/200 - 110s
Now you're suggesting to add a Fusion Core on top of that? 150/150 +65s build time?
Lair - 100 Gas - 80s Viper - 200 Gas - Time Unknown Currently
Considering that it requires 500 Gas to get a Cloak-Shee out, and 100 Lair Gas + Viper's 200gas, the current system is fine as is.
I think Zergs underestimate the time it takes to actually get a Banshee out on the field with Cloak.
hey way to bold what i said without actually reading the whole thing, i underlined the rest for you
you could make banshee cloaking a 50/50 upgrade with req fusion core and shuffling the timing around so banshee cloak finishes more in line with the increased build time on vipers
or you could just take the simple route and slap an extra 30 sec or whatever the difference is on cloak research
the problem is that all other builds which are not 2port banshee, the zerg wants to stay on hatch tech for as long as they can, so they can pump drones a bit harder
anything that upsets that really fragile balance will completely underpower zerg if they can't drone, and as it stands tvz is the closest thing to a balanced non-mirror we've got
the position of vipers on the tech tree is already a dangerous experiment, unless they secretly morph from roaches or something, or are built out of hatcheries instead of larva
Hmm, I think the only valid complaint against viper is probably the timing window. Generally the overseer timing window is just in time for banshee, and dt rushes.
I'd give my left leg for all overlords to get detection.
On October 25 2011 18:41 Zephirdd wrote: Defensively, you would still use Spore crawlers for detection. This is an offensive, versatile, detection method.
I still find it quite weak considering how easy it is to "avoid" spore crawlers, so I'm hoping Zerg will have another form of detection as well.
I started using overseers at each base after the gas change. It's way more effective since no cloaked unit hits air, but now I guess I'll have to burrow a ling?
On October 25 2011 18:41 Zephirdd wrote: Defensively, you would still use Spore crawlers for detection. This is an offensive, versatile, detection method.
I still find it quite weak considering how easy it is to "avoid" spore crawlers, so I'm hoping Zerg will have another form of detection as well.
I started using overseers at each base after the gas change. It's way more effective since no cloaked unit hits air, but now I guess I'll have to burrow a ling?
Which brings up an interesting question, does ocular parasite have a static detect range or a fluid one that molds to its host's sight range?
Still don't understand why they took detection away from overlords instead of trying to do cute things with overseers and now the viper. I understand it kind of takes away from other races using their cloaked units, but you could still chase away overlords with air units; You just had to work a little harder for it in BW instead of instantly GGing a zerg if you happened to slip some DTs past your defense.
I think zergs biggest issues are the incredibly slow units without upgrades and the lack of viable early-mid game scouting. Protoss could use some work too but hallucinate isn't the worst.
On November 07 2011 12:03 ELA wrote: Does anyone know if there will be some kind of visual give-away for the opponent, that the unit has the detection cast on it?
There's a little overseer on the top of the unit
And i've try the viper with the HotS Ums and i miss my overseer for the fast detection . Don't get me wrong i love 100x more the viper but if your opponent get you pants down you're fuck :\. I hope this is a misunderstand and you can cast more than one occular thing but you can only have 1 unit per viper. That mean if you cast it a second time, the first unit lost his detection.
I would really like it if they just kept the overseer in, and even possibly removed its spells (and therefore also made it cheaper if they did that) so that it isn't considered a caster unit or anything like that, but simply as an overlord with detection. In other words, it would be similar to in BW where overlords were detection, but in SC2 you would just have to pay to give it detection.
I think zergs biggest issues are the incredibly slow units without upgrades and the lack of viable early-mid game scouting. Protoss could use some work too but hallucinate isn't the worst.
Zerg units are at worst average speed without their upgrades, and every ground combat unit has one except the hydra (the ultra's you no longer have to pay for), plus they have creep. Move speed is not their problem.
I do think viper detection will be really wonky to balance. Having a caster as the mobile detector works for terran because of scans. 150 extra gas + extra build time for detection is going to hurt zerg quite a bit
On November 07 2011 14:06 BeauTaplin wrote: Confused on why cloaked units are allowed to be a threat to everyone but Zerg, Overlords with detection makes for less interesting play.
Because that is part of zerg gameplay, just like how terran gets building lift off for no apperant reason. Besides having OL detection only makes stealth obsolete in theory, in practice shit happens.
On October 25 2011 18:46 Ganseng wrote: i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
this times a 1000, why is nobody bringing this up??? zerg uses overseers to SCOUT most of the time; what will zerg do now? protoss have cheap, fast-building observers, terran can use scans, zerg............................................you get the idea. no overseer means zerg has no good way to scout. slow overlords will just die before getting to see anything.
On October 25 2011 18:46 Ganseng wrote: i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
this times a 1000, why is nobody bringing this up??? zerg uses overseers to SCOUT most of the time; what will zerg do now? protoss have cheap, fast-building observers, terran can use scans, zerg............................................you get the idea. no overseer means zerg has no good way to scout. slow overlords will just die before getting to see anything.
On October 25 2011 18:46 Ganseng wrote: i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
this times a 1000, why is nobody bringing this up??? zerg uses overseers to SCOUT most of the time; what will zerg do now? protoss have cheap, fast-building observers, terran can use scans, zerg............................................you get the idea. no overseer means zerg has no good way to scout. slow overlords will just die before getting to see anything.
Then use fast overlord ??
Overlord speed takes much longer to research and is more expensive than morphing an overseer, which means the ability to scout will be pushed back significantly.
On top of that you will now have to spend money on a separate unit (viper) to get detection instead of getting a scout and detection together.
On October 25 2011 18:46 Ganseng wrote: i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
this times a 1000, why is nobody bringing this up??? zerg uses overseers to SCOUT most of the time; what will zerg do now? protoss have cheap, fast-building observers, terran can use scans, zerg............................................you get the idea. no overseer means zerg has no good way to scout. slow overlords will just die before getting to see anything.
Well OL speed upgrade cost 100m 100g so that's only 50 gas more than overseer, the main differance would in upgrade vs morph time. You yeah its a slight nerf to zerg scouting and I think we could all agree that that's the last thing that needed a nerf.
On October 25 2011 18:46 Ganseng wrote: i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
this times a 1000, why is nobody bringing this up??? zerg uses overseers to SCOUT most of the time; what will zerg do now? protoss have cheap, fast-building observers, terran can use scans, zerg............................................you get the idea. no overseer means zerg has no good way to scout. slow overlords will just die before getting to see anything.
Then use fast overlord ??
Overlord speed takes much longer to research and is more expensive than morphing an overseer, which means the ability to scout will be pushed back significantly.
On top of that you will now have to spend money on a separate unit (viper) to get detection instead of getting a scout and detection together.
Ok it will push back but this is not like we don't have anythig to scout anymore.
On October 25 2011 18:46 Ganseng wrote: i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
this times a 1000, why is nobody bringing this up??? zerg uses overseers to SCOUT most of the time; what will zerg do now? protoss have cheap, fast-building observers, terran can use scans, zerg............................................you get the idea. no overseer means zerg has no good way to scout. slow overlords will just die before getting to see anything.
Then use fast overlord ??
Overlord speed takes much longer to research and is more expensive than morphing an overseer, which means the ability to scout will be pushed back significantly.
On top of that you will now have to spend money on a separate unit (viper) to get detection instead of getting a scout and detection together.
Ok it will push back but this is not like we don't have anythig to scout anymore.
Agreed. Its just that it really didn't need to be pushed back later than it already is.
I don't mind the ocular parasite mechanic, it is interesting. But if you can only use it once it is very very stupid in my opinion.
The viper should have detection originally, and then be able to transfer detection to other units when it reaches some amount of energy (100-150), losing detection itself, then when it gets that amount of energy it should be able to become a detector again and be able to cast.
On November 08 2011 05:15 terranmoccasin wrote: What if you cast the spell on a unit and then burrow it? I could imagine that being very powerful for zergs and confusing for opponents.
Hahaha xD A burrow mouvement roach detector. it could be nice
On October 25 2011 18:47 albis wrote: would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
¿How anyone of this be better than a single spore? Remember spores can move and burrow pretty quick.
Also, queens are the priority target on a cloacked rush, so getting them to be detectors make them more priority target.
no I'm sorry, but spore crawlers do not move and burrow pretty quick
for those that dont know, there is a custom map on battlenet that lets you play the hots build. i played it earlier and i gotta say, 100/200 is pretty fucking ridiculous. your forced to defend if (in this example) protoss goes for dt's until you got the viper out, its so stupid. but idk, maybe its not and it will just take a new playstyle of zerg to utilize it fully
On November 08 2011 04:11 Tschis wrote: It would be good to define "near" in "need viper near the unit"
Not sure this needs a definition. The ocular parasite (which gives the unit detection) is a spell of the viper and the receiving unit needs to be close. Whether it has 7 or 10 range, e.g., does not really matter in contrast to making an Overseer from an Overlord.
I think zerg is screwed on scouting now. Zerg complains about early game scouting, so they buff overseer to make it quicker (less gas)... then they remove it in HOTS.
What the fuck are we supposed to do. Fly an extremely expensive and slow viper over their base?
Overlord speed needs to decreased in time and cost to make up for this. Or just keep the damn overseer.
EPT
