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[D] HotS: Zerg detection

Forum Index > SC2 General
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grs
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany2339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 23:38:00
October 25 2011 09:38 GMT
#1
As little as is known right now, I am a bit worried about the loss of the overseer as a detector compared to the viper as a detector.

Overseer:
+ morph time 17s, when lair tech is done
+ cost 50/50
+ sight range 11
+ Speed 1.875 (2,75 with upgrade)
+ morph from any overlord spread around the map
- rarely used/bad spells

Viper:
? build time unknown, but very probably way more than 17s (infestor is 50s e.g.) said to build fairly quick
? cost 100/200, but can make multiple detectors
- sight range (of the detector) depends on unit (max 11)
- speed (of the detector) depends on unit (can be very fast zergling or very slow)
- must have the viper near the unit you want as a detector
+ spells sound very strong

Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). How much havoc can some DTs or Banshees wreck till you can have another detector up?
From people playing at Blizzcon, the Viper can infect multiple units; each for the low cost of 25 energy.

Also it seems the parasite will not work on massive units (no Broodlord, no Ultralisk), so what is left? An overlord, which flies, but is very slow? Maybe a muta or corruptor?

Am I overlooking something, or does this hurt zerg detection quite much? Currently looks, like switching the Overseer out for the viper, slows the initial zerg detection down, since the cost is higher and you have to get the unit you want as a detector close to the Viper.

kmh
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland351 Posts
October 25 2011 09:41 GMT
#2
It's a pretty big hit to the availability of detection. However, having a single viper will probably never be a bad move - no matter what the push, it would seem to always be a helpful unit to have, so there's that.

Barbiero
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Brazil5259 Posts
October 25 2011 09:41 GMT
#3
Defensively, you would still use Spore crawlers for detection. This is an offensive, versatile, detection method.

I still find it quite weak considering how easy it is to "avoid" spore crawlers, so I'm hoping Zerg will have another form of detection as well.
♥ The world needs more hearts! ♥
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
October 25 2011 09:46 GMT
#4
i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference.
how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
albis
Profile Joined January 2010
United States652 Posts
October 25 2011 09:47 GMT
#5
would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
every punch is thrown with bad intentions with the speed of a devil
Eviscerador
Profile Joined October 2011
Spain286 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 09:51:24
October 25 2011 09:50 GMT
#6
On October 25 2011 18:47 albis wrote:
would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos

¿How anyone of this be better than a single spore? Remember spores can move and burrow pretty quick.

Also, queens are the priority target on a cloacked rush, so getting them to be detectors make them more priority target.
A victorious warrior wins first, then goes to war. A defeated warrior goes to war and then seeks to win.
FaCE_1
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Canada6170 Posts
October 25 2011 09:51 GMT
#7
On October 25 2011 18:47 albis wrote:
would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos

yeah or have the zerling as detector O_o...

I always like to make 3-4 overseer when needed in big battle against T or P since it's pretty cheep, you already have the overload and chageling are so usefull

will need to try this new units before concluding anything tough...
n_n
Frankon
Profile Joined May 2010
3054 Posts
October 25 2011 09:54 GMT
#8
I see one big plus for the parasite. It should be harder to snipe the detection units to use your ghosts or DTs in engagement since you wouldn't know which unit is the detector.
Treble557
Profile Joined August 2010
United States221 Posts
October 25 2011 09:57 GMT
#9
I'm more worried about what it's gonna do to our mid game scouting then our detection honestly. You can get an overseer as soon as you get a lair to get into the enemy base and poke around to see what you're reacting to just fine, but if we're stuck waiting on OL speed to do this, or using slow OL's, or only able to go by what we see from poking at the front, then im pretty sure we're screwed. XD
Seij
Profile Joined March 2011
United States19 Posts
October 25 2011 10:04 GMT
#10
I'm excited to have the viper...

Going against a Terran with many ghosts to both snipe BLs and Ultras, the only viable way to kill them off would be either with an overseer (very easily sniped) or revealing them with a fungal. EMP out ranges fungal and are very squishy.

The game was kind of off though but....
+ Show Spoiler +
Watch MVP vs Nestea @ Blizzcon
I kind of wonder if he was trying to make a point with that comp vs ghosts...


Having a random unit to detect seems to be a great solution to this.

I am concerned about the cost and time it will come out though as well.

firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
October 25 2011 10:07 GMT
#11
I think the overseer should just be left in, how else are zerg going to scout on lair tech?
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
baba44713
Profile Joined October 2011
83 Posts
October 25 2011 10:22 GMT
#12
There's already a thread about this:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216712

Hairy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1169 Posts
October 25 2011 10:24 GMT
#13
I'm a little worried, but it's early days and we still don't even have beta.

That said, I'm concerned for early/midgame detection as the viper is going to be difficult, or impossible, to get early enough to be an option for things like big banshee play (while still being economically viable). With no other detection option I can see it being very difficult to avoid having to over-produce spores for defense in order to avoid stupid losses.

... especially as removing the overseer also leaves somewhat of a hole in zerg scouting as it currently stands. Hopefully blizz will give us some alternative, eg overlord speed at hatch tech would be very welcome.
Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits
FakeDouble
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia676 Posts
October 25 2011 10:33 GMT
#14
It seems like zerg would become like a Terran that didn't have the ability to scan, i.e. no mobile detection until you get out a raven (also 100/200)... which is stupid, and I play Terran.
2 Port cloakshee would become too strong again as zerg would not be able to get a detector that the cloakshees could not just kill.
DTs wouldn't kill you out right, but could easily contain you on 2 bases. If you did happen to take a very quick 3rd and spore that up in time, a protoss could just park DTs outside your natural to not let you move out and easily go kill your 3rd and then take a quick 3rd themselves.
At least in zvz you wouldn't have to worry about swarm host rushes. Or would you?
Hopefully it doesn't come down to having to spread creep and leap-frog spore crawlers just to be able to move out of your base with units that aren't as fast as speedlings...
Formerly known as carbonaceous
teide
Profile Joined July 2011
Spain178 Posts
October 25 2011 10:37 GMT
#15
Dt and banshee kill spore crawler so fast. Zerg dont have scan -.-
My name is reek it rhymes with peek.
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
October 25 2011 10:38 GMT
#16
I hope there's some kind of graphic, like an eye icon floating above units that you make a detector.

Otherwise, how will the other player know which unit to snipe?
silentblob
Profile Joined June 2011
Great Britain40 Posts
October 25 2011 11:09 GMT
#17
my advice is to wait till the game ships before you worry about the balance, thats meant in a nice way
Treble557
Profile Joined August 2010
United States221 Posts
October 25 2011 11:11 GMT
#18
On October 25 2011 20:09 silentblob wrote:
my advice is to wait till the game ships before you worry about the balance, thats meant in a nice way


Try to remember that DB put all this stuff out there because he wants our community feedback on these ideas to know if they're worth finalizing or not for the beta.

So we'd actually be doing a bad thing by just going "ooo how snazzy" and then waiting till the beta to say anything at all.

baba44713
Profile Joined October 2011
83 Posts
October 25 2011 11:16 GMT
#19
On October 25 2011 19:38 TedJustice wrote:
I hope there's some kind of graphic, like an eye icon floating above units that you make a detector.

Otherwise, how will the other player know which unit to snipe?


Yes there is. A giant frikking floating orb. Check out 0:09:



silentblob
Profile Joined June 2011
Great Britain40 Posts
October 25 2011 11:20 GMT
#20
If one mutalisk was ocular parasited in a pack of mutas, it would be a really good tool for scouting/map control/picking off observers, banshees, possibly DT's possibly shredders and swarm hosts if they are used as intended.

I think thats how they will be used... and hopefully they won't be visible by the enemy unless the enemy has a detector.
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