As little as is known right now, I am a bit worried about the loss of the overseer as a detector compared to the viper as a detector.
Overseer: + morph time 17s, when lair tech is done + cost 50/50 + sight range 11 + Speed 1.875 (2,75 with upgrade) + morph from any overlord spread around the map - rarely used/bad spells
Viper: ? build time unknown, but very probably way more than 17s (infestor is 50s e.g.) said to build fairly quick ? cost 100/200, but can make multiple detectors - sight range (of the detector) depends on unit (max 11) - speed (of the detector) depends on unit (can be very fast zergling or very slow) - must have the viper near the unit you want as a detector + spells sound very strong
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). How much havoc can some DTs or Banshees wreck till you can have another detector up? From people playing at Blizzcon, the Viper can infect multiple units; each for the low cost of 25 energy.
Also it seems the parasite will not work on massive units (no Broodlord, no Ultralisk), so what is left? An overlord, which flies, but is very slow? Maybe a muta or corruptor?
Am I overlooking something, or does this hurt zerg detection quite much? Currently looks, like switching the Overseer out for the viper, slows the initial zerg detection down, since the cost is higher and you have to get the unit you want as a detector close to the Viper.
It's a pretty big hit to the availability of detection. However, having a single viper will probably never be a bad move - no matter what the push, it would seem to always be a helpful unit to have, so there's that.
i wouldn't be concerned about detection, i would be concerned about scouting. i mean overseer is 50 gas and 200 hp, viper is 200 gas and 120 hp... feel the difference. how are zergies supposed to scout? slow ovis? fast ovis (200 gas)?
would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
On October 25 2011 18:47 albis wrote: would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
¿How anyone of this be better than a single spore? Remember spores can move and burrow pretty quick.
Also, queens are the priority target on a cloacked rush, so getting them to be detectors make them more priority target.
On October 25 2011 18:47 albis wrote: would be nice to have queen detectors at expansions. 2-3 spines and a queen and your anti dt proof. hear a nuke go off, queens already at the nuke spot. or maybe overlords over expos
yeah or have the zerling as detector O_o...
I always like to make 3-4 overseer when needed in big battle against T or P since it's pretty cheep, you already have the overload and chageling are so usefull
will need to try this new units before concluding anything tough...
I see one big plus for the parasite. It should be harder to snipe the detection units to use your ghosts or DTs in engagement since you wouldn't know which unit is the detector.
I'm more worried about what it's gonna do to our mid game scouting then our detection honestly. You can get an overseer as soon as you get a lair to get into the enemy base and poke around to see what you're reacting to just fine, but if we're stuck waiting on OL speed to do this, or using slow OL's, or only able to go by what we see from poking at the front, then im pretty sure we're screwed. XD
Going against a Terran with many ghosts to both snipe BLs and Ultras, the only viable way to kill them off would be either with an overseer (very easily sniped) or revealing them with a fungal. EMP out ranges fungal and are very squishy.
I'm a little worried, but it's early days and we still don't even have beta.
That said, I'm concerned for early/midgame detection as the viper is going to be difficult, or impossible, to get early enough to be an option for things like big banshee play (while still being economically viable). With no other detection option I can see it being very difficult to avoid having to over-produce spores for defense in order to avoid stupid losses.
... especially as removing the overseer also leaves somewhat of a hole in zerg scouting as it currently stands. Hopefully blizz will give us some alternative, eg overlord speed at hatch tech would be very welcome.
It seems like zerg would become like a Terran that didn't have the ability to scan, i.e. no mobile detection until you get out a raven (also 100/200)... which is stupid, and I play Terran. 2 Port cloakshee would become too strong again as zerg would not be able to get a detector that the cloakshees could not just kill. DTs wouldn't kill you out right, but could easily contain you on 2 bases. If you did happen to take a very quick 3rd and spore that up in time, a protoss could just park DTs outside your natural to not let you move out and easily go kill your 3rd and then take a quick 3rd themselves. At least in zvz you wouldn't have to worry about swarm host rushes. Or would you? Hopefully it doesn't come down to having to spread creep and leap-frog spore crawlers just to be able to move out of your base with units that aren't as fast as speedlings...
On October 25 2011 20:09 silentblob wrote: my advice is to wait till the game ships before you worry about the balance, thats meant in a nice way
Try to remember that DB put all this stuff out there because he wants our community feedback on these ideas to know if they're worth finalizing or not for the beta.
So we'd actually be doing a bad thing by just going "ooo how snazzy" and then waiting till the beta to say anything at all.
If one mutalisk was ocular parasited in a pack of mutas, it would be a really good tool for scouting/map control/picking off observers, banshees, possibly DT's possibly shredders and swarm hosts if they are used as intended.
I think thats how they will be used... and hopefully they won't be visible by the enemy unless the enemy has a detector.
EPT
