EPT
[D] HotS: Zerg detection - Page 2
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silentblob
Great Britain40 Posts
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SnoWhiTe
France121 Posts
But your opponent doesn't know if you have detection or not. It's quite good against cloacked ghost or banshee. I mean if a ghost come to EMP your infestor, the Terran can't see if one of your units is a detector. Same thing for obs, banshee, burrowed zergs, DTs. In an offensive point of view, this ability can be very usefull. However, in defense you'll have to make spore I guess. And if you want to get uppgrade you have to build a evolution chamber so... And remember that the sporecrawler cost only 75 minerals (well + 50 for the drone) but that's all. And in the mid or late game, player like Stephano spend a lot of minerals on spinecrawler and sporecrawler. So that's it. You'll have to get a quick evolution chamber against cloacked rush, but you already do that in WoL, except if you're already on lair Edit : Just watch the video, okay a giant flotaing orb... Well it's still less obvious that an overseer over your army | ||
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silentblob
Great Britain40 Posts
On October 25 2011 20:11 Treble557 wrote: Try to remember that DB put all this stuff out there because he wants our community feedback on these ideas to know if they're worth finalizing or not for the beta. So we'd actually be doing a bad thing by just going "ooo how snazzy" and then waiting till the beta to say anything at all. haha, you are right, but I've heard already in interviews that he's concerned about vision for Zerg, because they removed the overseeer, and them saying they have learnt their lesson from when WoL came out not to overlook something that was already a problem.. Because for a while people were struggling with cloak banshees vs zerg, I just figured they'd know not to mess something like that up! but, after seeing ur post i put down my thoughts... | ||
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Slipspace
United States381 Posts
i honestly don't know why this change in the first place | ||
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Pixel.
Netherlands287 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
In hots as it is now, we would have to pay 100/100 for overlord speed and wait until it's finished to scout. I don't now about you I'm not sending my 200 gas viper into the opponents base to scout oO | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45199 Posts
On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote: Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease  Can someone confirm? | ||
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Lumi
United States1616 Posts
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP: I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease Can someone confirm? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Viper Read the last sentence in the Official Blizzard description: Finally, the Viper has a one-time ability called Ocular Parasite, which allows it to detach its eye stalk and meld it onto any friendly, non-massive unit, turning that unit into a detector. | ||
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Xenomorph
United States137 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue. Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech. With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection. In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army. So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue. Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech. With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection. In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play. Didn't they mention that the Viper will be a separate build from the hatchery? So it doesn't sue larvae? They'll probably end up just being constructed when you have your lair up, like the Overseer. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play. welcome to the world of PvT - where going observer first for detection is obligatory not that I like that blizz also does this to zerg, but maybe it helps zerg-players to understand PvT-problems a little bit better | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 25 2011 21:42 sleepingdog wrote: welcome to the world of PvT - where going observer first for detection is obligatory not that I like that blizz also does this to zerg, but maybe it helps zerg-players to understand PvT-problems a little bit better Uh, I think it is equally stupid there ... remove scan from the game would make it equal I guess ... | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
Do we know if range of detection is only extended as far as unit vision for any unit "parasited" by the Viper? Or is it like scanning, where a scan seems to detect a little on the fringe of its vision, and likewise with turrets. Maybe I'm confused. The reason I'm asking is because it would be useful to put detection on a burrowed unit, like say a burrowed roach or infestor. It would not be useful, however, if the unit's detection is limited to its current sight range (when burrowed, ~1ish). On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army. So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue. Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech. With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection. In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play. Just to entertain the idea... So what if you have to make vipers? Assuming the Viper keeps its other abilities too (you're assuming that things will change in the game due to the Viper as currently defined), they'll be QUITE the complement to ANY Zerg composition. You WANT the Viper in your army comp. You WANT to be able to render deathballs helpless and to capture and kill special units (re: collosi). How do you know being "forced" to have these units is detrimental? You might have a couple less infestors or mutas, but you can easily make up for it by USING the Viper's other abilities.... | ||
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Treble557
United States221 Posts
On October 25 2011 20:32 NeonFox wrote: I've said this before in other threads but there also is another problem, scouting. Right now as soon as lair is finished I pay 50/50 and morph and overseer and scout. In hots as it is now, we would have to pay 100/100 for overlord speed and wait until it's finished to scout. I don't now about you I'm not sending my 200 gas viper into the opponents base to scout oO This. Scouting timings are very important and very precise for Zerg players above plat these days. We just can't afford a blow like that to our scouting atm. :< Maybe if they made OL speed a hatch tech upgrade tho that only took a spawning pool or evo to start, then this kinda change wouldn't really step on anyones toes. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On October 25 2011 21:42 sleepingdog wrote: welcome to the world of PvT - where going observer first for detection is obligatory not that I like that blizz also does this to zerg, but maybe it helps zerg-players to understand PvT-problems a little bit better why would zerg need to understand pvt problems ? :o it has nothing to do with them, not to say let other suffer so they know your pain is bad justification for anything | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 25 2011 21:51 FallDownMarigold wrote: Just to entertain the idea... So what if you have to make vipers? Assuming the Viper keeps its other abilities too (you're assuming that things will change in the game due to the Viper as currently defined), they'll be QUITE the complement to ANY Zerg composition. Well, I don't like 'having' to go for a tech path once I hit lair, I prefer being able to chose what I want to make. Now if viper is made from a hatchery my fear is too high ... if I need to make a tech building to get it, I think it's dumb | ||
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baba44713
83 Posts
On October 25 2011 21:09 Xenomorph wrote: Consider the following. Cast on an armored burrow unit (like roach) during an engagement burrow said unit. The enemy now has to focus on your burrowed unit to get rid of detection but your army is swarming on top of it. It's still hell of a techy and APM intensive way to have detection during battle. Not to even mention the orb which telegraphs "burrowed detection unit here". Compare this to flying cloaked observer following the army or two-three saved up scans in the pocket and it's kinda laughable. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:04 aebriol wrote: Well, I don't like 'having' to go for a tech path once I hit lair, I prefer being able to chose what I want to make. Now if viper is made from a hatchery my fear is too high ... if I need to make a tech building to get it, I think it's dumb Do you also dislike "having" to make queens? It's just part of the zerg race. If you want to survive, you need to do it. I don't expect there'll be a tech building for it. Also I would think the orb wouldn't be visible if a unit is burrowed. | ||
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