On October 26 2011 02:44 Bagration wrote: My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.
Have a look at the video on page one of this thread. The unit gets an orb on his head.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
...scan
It'll be impossible to do a midgame push against anyone that has cloaked units without a viper. It was convenient to bring an overseer in a midgame push in case there was a hidden DT in the army or a cloaked banshee. To ask for a 200 gas detection unit is a bit steep.
Terrans can't effectively push against a DT-toss without a raven either. Scan is good enough to kill off one or two DTs but unless you never dropped a single mule and saved up all energy, you still need a raven or a competent toss will force at least one scan per DT.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
Hmm...not sure. I always thought it would be people that end their sentences with "lol", when they have no real point to make. Last time I checked, Terrans were using scan, because they don't have a missile turret in their backpack when their army moves out.
Anyways, this was not about balance, it was to talk about our options for detection with the Overseer removed. I got some useful information and some others too I hope.
On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote: You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.
...scan
It'll be impossible to do a midgame push against anyone that has cloaked units without a viper. It was convenient to bring an overseer in a midgame push in case there was a hidden DT in the army or a cloaked banshee. To ask for a 200 gas detection unit is a bit steep.
Yeah, especially when its other spells such as Autoturrets and Seeker Missles are only mediocre, too. Oh wait, you're talking about the Viper?
I think getting rid of the overseer was a good idea way to easy for an unprepared Zerg to get instant detection but at the same time if u had a spore crawler in place at your third but no overseer dt were very strong at killin spore and going to town. I am thinking parasite queens for detection may become standard also maybe burrowing a zergling in your mineral line and parasiting seems like it might be a cool idea. plus I have a feeling the viper will be a unit Zerg makes alot so u will be able to have numerous units who can detect. I would say lowering the cost of overlord speed upgrade should be done to have lair scouting to be fair. Another cool thin would be if Zerg could use it on enemy units imagine using it on a siege tank or colossi
On October 26 2011 02:44 Bagration wrote: My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.
Have a look at the video on page one of this thread. The unit gets an orb on his head.
That doesn't answer the question. It tells us that the Zerg player can easily identify the detector (the orb), but we don't know if enemy players can.
I think that there are good and bad things about this change but ultimately I think that spore crawlers at each expo will now be standard spore and 1-2 spines like the pros do when dts are on the map.
On October 26 2011 02:44 Bagration wrote: My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.
Have a look at the video on page one of this thread. The unit gets an orb on his head.
That doesn't answer the question. It tells us that the Zerg player can easily identify the detector (the orb), but we don't know if enemy players can.
I assumed it will be seen by everybody and I am sure it will be, but you are right, the video does not show that.
Actually, defensively I think the best solution is a decector Zergling that is burrowed in your mineral line. Very fast if necessary and impossible for dt to kill without an obs.
Early DT pushes will be awesome for the P to deny the zerg the third and get mapcontrol. Also I can see terran going banshee's just to deny the third more easily. Hopefully they decide to keep the overseer or give us something else to have a mobile detection unit
Protoss deals with the need of Robo then observer, which is a dedicate tech path, so is the same boat. Terrans maybe are, like Dustin recognize in his interview, kinda unbalanced in this aspect like in anything else, they are more "complete" than the others, but Z in hots will not be "the" unbalanced race in detection.
On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote: It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
Welcome to being protoss, where robo is mandatory if you ever want to not die to burrowed roaches, DTs, or cloaked bancheese.
RAAAAAAAWR RAGE OVER POWERED UNDER POWERED RAGE RAGE RAGE.
None of these units are even confirmed. The devs aren't making arbitrary changes. They won't leave zerg detectionless or "pidgeonholed"
Detectors are good. You should want to get them. Why are protoss still bitching that they need observers? THEY'RE USEFUL.
waaaaaaah, It takes away from building your colossus for a bit. Here's a thought - time your unit production better. Terrans who don't techswitch in the most reactionary way almost always lose.
personally, I think that just the viper is a bit too hard for detection all by itself. I bet we'll see the overseer again, sans any abilities other than speed, armor, and detection.
They mentioned they are watching it close to make sure it is affordable and accessible. But they also love making races different for difference sake... so it may be both good and bad for Zerg.
Duct Tape solution: Upgrade overlord speed, fly them with your army with the generate creep toggled on. Bring a spore crawler or 2 with army... burrow in overlord poop when needed. Would give some extra AA as well.
Detectors are good. You should want to get them. Why are protoss still bitching that they need observers? THEY'RE USEFUL.
waaaaaaah, It takes away from building your colossus for a bit. Here's a thought - time your unit production better. Terrans who don't techswitch in the most reactionary way almost always lose.
You're missing the point. Nobody complains about having to build observers once you have a robo. The problem is that any game where you don't get detection you risk a build order loss, and so there's a huge incentive to go robo immediately rather than stargate or templar.
Having played with vipers at Blizzcon the only real complaint I have is losing overseers for cheap scouting. They are kind of expensive but they're also really really good, beyond providing detection. And as has already been mentioned the parasite isn't one time use despite what the unit description says.
It's been said by a few others in this thread but i'll re-post it: as of the Blizzcon build, a single Viper can cast detection on as many units as it has energy. If you get a viper or two early and use all of its energy on detection, you can end up feeling like a Starcraft 1 Zerg because all of your overlords have detection. However, you really don't want to use all your Viper energy on detection because its "real" spells are so freaking strong.
On October 26 2011 06:02 gmorf33 wrote: Duct Tape solution: Upgrade overlord speed, fly them with your army with the generate creep toggled on. Bring a spore crawler or 2 with army... burrow in overlord poop when needed. Would give some extra AA as well.
excellent idea. when my army gets ambushed by an army with dt's i'll stay where i'm at and keep my overlords safe so they can puke creep so i can activate my detectors so i can attack the shit two-shotting my stuff. or i could just run away back to my base where my detectors are already activated.
EPT
