Is there any evidence for the assumption that the Viper is build from the Lair itself instead from Larva and is there any evidence for the assumtion that is does not requite a tech building?

KAmaKAsa

Finland210 Posts

October 25 2011 14:52 GMT

#43

theres a reason why they make these things called beta´s and this is when they test this shit on a larger scale after testing it in their own company, its far too early to go to conclusions when they announce a few units that may or may not be in the game itself and may or may not be as strong as they are now. if there is a major problem like this IT WILL get fixed in the beta... or even before that

Antisocialmunky

United States5912 Posts

October 25 2011 14:56 GMT

#44

It would be fun to OP enemy units : )

Steel

Japan2283 Posts

October 25 2011 14:58 GMT

#45

I'd say make the overlord speed upgrade also give detection. I mean, in BW detection was on all overlords and DTs were still viable. Dunno why I'd be a problem here.

ApBuLLet

United States604 Posts

October 25 2011 15:00 GMT

#46

In a way it is a cool spell, being able to make any unit a detector, but in a way it sucks too, like you pointed out. The cool part about it is that your opponent can't really avoid your detection because they are not aware of which units are detectors and which aren't (unless there is some sort of animation or something that I am not aware of), and you can give detection to units like mutas or something, which as someone said can be very handy for hunting down banshees or observers.

However, the downfall is that you MUST build vipers in pretty much every game now, and not just one but many. The reason you need to build many is because each viper can only grant detection to a unit one time and that's it (that's what I've read anyway), so if that units dies you need a new viper to grant a new unit detection. Also, since the unit needs to be near the viper it kinda defeats the purpose of the spell. Why not just make the viper a detector then? If I could make all of my queens detectors and then bring my vipers along with my army and know that I am fairly safe from banshees or DTs, then that is a good spell. But having my viper leashed to a unit just so I can have detection is pretty cheap. Also, is there any way to tell if the viper is within range of that unit or not? Are one of those big rings (think siege tank range indicator) going to be placed around my detector unit at all times? I just don't quite understand how this is going to work.

Personally, if the viper didn't have to be chained to the detector unit I would cast it on queens and maybe burrowed swarm hosts which I would leave defending (just one for DTs/drops/zergling counter attacks etc). As for having detection in my army itself, I'd probably cast it on other vipers since they are flying units and seem to be fairly fast. I don't like the idea of giving detection to a roach or zergling or something and having to keep track of it so that I can recast detection when it dies...

RockIronrod

Australia1369 Posts

October 25 2011 15:43 GMT

#47

Yes Blizzard, remove the dedicated, tanky detector and replace it with a one time, 200 gas spell that you put onto a unit of the race created around weak individual units that die a lot and are replaced quickly.
It's almost as if you've got no fucking clue what you're doing with your design choices.

Avalain

Canada308 Posts

October 25 2011 16:45 GMT

#48

While it says in the blizzard documentation that this is a one time spell, people who were actually using the units at blizzcon are saying that you can cast it as many times as you want (assuming you have energy). Sounds like the one-time thing was changed between when the documentation was made and the latest build to run at Blizzcon.

So yeah, don't worry about the detector thing. It won't be a problem. The only thing I worry about is the lack of early scouting.

BronzeKnee

United States5217 Posts

October 25 2011 16:47 GMT

#49

I think it is really dumb you can't make an Ultralisk or Brood detectors. You want your detectors to be relatively tough.

On October 25 2011 23:43 Inf-badguy wrote:
Give this ability to queens at lair tech for 25 energy. Problem solved.

Good work, maybe 50 energy would be more fair, but this is the best solution.

Klystron

United States99 Posts

October 25 2011 16:53 GMT

#50

On October 25 2011 23:49 grs wrote:
Is there any evidence for the assumption that the Viper is build from the Lair itself instead from Larva and is there any evidence for the assumtion that is does not requite a tech building?

It comes from larva.

hellraiser1110

Croatia70 Posts

October 25 2011 16:58 GMT

#51

I think overseer should not be out of the game, it makes my nydus hydra push really good if i can sneak it into a base.

Cyanocyst

2222 Posts

October 25 2011 17:07 GMT

#52

On October 26 2011 00:00 ApBuLLet wrote:
However, the downfall is that you MUST build vipers in pretty much every game now, and not just one but many. The reason you need to build many is because each viper can only grant detection to a unit one time and that's it (that's what I've read anyway), so if that units dies you need a new viper to grant a new unit detection.

Im pretty sure, it means that the Viper can use ocular parasite anytime it has 50 energy. It just can't use it on the exact same unit twice. Though their is no need to do so if that unit is still alive, it already has detection.

ALPINA

3791 Posts

October 25 2011 17:19 GMT

#53

I think there is no reason to remove overseer. I don't see how it overlaps with viper, and it's quite nice unit - I love changelings.

Clonze

Canada281 Posts

October 25 2011 17:31 GMT

#54

You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.

Durp

Canada3117 Posts

October 25 2011 17:33 GMT

#55

The overseer should be unlocked by the evolution chamber, but contaminate should remain a lair tech ability.

That way you don't break ZvZ, yet all early game zerg detection is taken care of .
The evo is needed for spores either way - you're not making game breaking changes, and then you don't have to remove the overseer and screw with zerg detection.

Really not a fan of the proposed viper detection change.

grs

Germany2339 Posts

October 25 2011 17:35 GMT

#56

On October 26 2011 02:31 Clonze wrote:
You don't need overseers to detect invisible units, you're being dumb. Terrans use mainly turrets against DTs... they don't wait for ravens, surely zergs can use spore crawlers to fend off any sort of Cheese... so an extra 10-20 seconds added to the old overseer but being a spellcaster. I'm really surprised that you found something to be 'worried' about without actually playing the new game. It's people like you... Lol.

Hmm...not sure. I always thought it would be people that end their sentences with "lol", when they have no real point to make. Last time I checked, Terrans were using scan, because they don't have a missile turret in their backpack when their army moves out.

Anyways, this was not about balance, it was to talk about our options for detection with the Overseer removed. I got some useful information and some others too I hope.

Lurk

Germany359 Posts

October 25 2011 17:35 GMT

#57

On October 25 2011 23:43 Inf-badguy wrote:
Give this ability to queens at lair tech for 25 energy. Problem solved.

If it was temporary, for say, 10s, i'd agree on this. It would work similar to scan for terran as a means of emergency detection.

However, if it was permanent, where would be the point of having cloak in game if detection is so cheap and readily available ?

In WoL, zerg had the easiest time to get permanent, moving detection (i'm obviously ignoring scan here). Now it's going to be a little harder but getting a viper before banshees or DTs show up at your base shouldn't be a big problem. Maybe you'll have to face a contain until you get it and defend with spores in the meantime.

pzea469

United States1520 Posts

October 25 2011 17:38 GMT

#58

wouldn't mind if they went back to making every overlord a detector. I found that more unique lol.

cHaNg-sTa

United States1058 Posts

October 25 2011 17:41 GMT

#59

...scan

It'll be impossible to do a midgame push against anyone that has cloaked units without a viper. It was convenient to bring an overseer in a midgame push in case there was a hidden DT in the army or a cloaked banshee. To ask for a 200 gas detection unit is a bit steep.

Bagration

United States18282 Posts

October 25 2011 17:44 GMT

#60

My question is whether or not the opponent can tell which unit is a detector from simply clicking on it. Even if that is the case, this makes it much harder to snipe zerg detectors, especially given the usual clumped bio-balls that zerg armies end up as. This change gives zerg significant versatilbility in terms of detection, and it will certainly be interesting to see how it is used at the highest levels of competition.