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On November 06 2011 18:35 Unnamed Player wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 17:46 aksfjh wrote:On November 06 2011 16:37 Unnamed Player wrote:On November 06 2011 16:24 Jrocker152 wrote:On October 25 2011 20:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:OP: On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I'm pretty sure you can make as many detectors as you want with a single Viper (you just need enough energy to cast the spell each time), but you can't cast the buff on the same unit more than once (and why would you? the redundancy of becoming a double-detector would have no effect). And if this is the case, then it would surely put your mind at ease  Can someone confirm? I can deny. You are wrong. Test mod proof, somewhere, I'll try to find it and post rep. It's already been answered numerous times especially in the original thread that the Ocular Parasite can be cast as many times as you have the energy for it on as many units as you want. This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums. The amount of misinformation in these HOTS threads is ridiculous. It's all those people playing that terrible HotS map mod. The thing is grossly inaccurate and doesn't even fairly represent alpha standards from Blizz. I can't count how many times I've seen people say, "_____ feels bad on the HotS custom map because of ______." Most of the time, the thing they're complaining about is broken on the mod or the unit/abilities are just flat wrong. Did you miss the part where i said " This has been confirmed by multiple players that used it at Blizzcon, on this and other forums" Here is just one example of the original thread, which is where the Op should have made his post as there is heaps of information in there Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216712¤tpage=AllBlizzcon player: Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 18:53 Belial88 wrote:
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
Updated the OP according to this info.
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Also, OP on a mutalisk will be strong, especially for killing observers, banshees, dts, nuking ghosts.
Giving it to the queen you could just make it 200 energy. It's unlikely you'll have a queen at 200 energy before lair timing anyway. But if you do that which of the queen's abilities do you take away? Blizz would probably want to avoid having four abilities on the queen. Maybe you could spawn creep tumors from the hatchery on a long timer? Probably too complicated, I guess four abilities would be possible.
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On November 07 2011 07:53 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:51 JackDragon wrote:On November 07 2011 03:44 DARKHYDRA wrote:On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote:
the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight. How did dark templar get buffed? I don't agree that zerg detection just got much worse. From what I have heard and seen from people playing the actuall beta the spell for detection is not a one time use so I will trust that information. T he only difference in this case is that you know need a good unit for mobile detection, that you only really need one of. 200 gas sure but that is the same for ravens right? also it is stright after lair insted of a certen techpath like the Robo is for protoss. And the observer still costs 75 gas for a really weak but cloaked detection. All in all I don't see the detection so much worse for zerg you still have spores for dt rushes and banshees so it isn't like you will die if you don't rush lair. Sure it might be harder to take a 3rd and 4th before lair but I really don't see that as a big problem. terran also have turrets which is common in basicly all matchups except non bio TvT so think of those like spores, then scans, and also raven. protoss have observer/cannons while zerg had overseer/spores. It just seems so stupid to have lair needed for detection as zerg..the race is supposed to be mobile, and how fast is the viper?
Well yeah. didn't count static detection. turrents, spores, cannons are all equivalente. And lair is still needed for overseer, so the tech needed havn't changed. Only cost and utility really.
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This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy...
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On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote:
This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy...
that was before it cost 50/50 to morph into an overseer...
Now its actually a good price for its function.
And I don't think people don't like the viper, just that it doesn't really make sense as a replacement for the overseer. Why can't we just have an awesome caster without screwing up detection?
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On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote:
This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy...
the main complaint is the timing window, that vipers will take longer to hit the field than an overseer does
it's been confirmed that all vipers require is a lair, but its still unlikely the viper build time will be shorter than the overseer build time
no one is arguing that vipers aren't as useful as overseers for detection. the problem is that while zerg's ability to detect will overall be stronger, 2port banshee might become so powerful that it's no longer a cheese but a standard timing attack
i think it's a legitimate point, but banshee cloak is so prevalent in tvt that increasing the research time of cloak will probably be a net positive for the game overall. perhaps they could move it to the fusion cure, and make banshee cloaking a cheaper reserach, in order to slow down the timings to equalize with the longer build time of a viper
the bigger question to me, as a long time bw player, is why overlords needed to lose their detection in the first place, as i always thought it was easier to use dt vs zerg than terran or protoss
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i see it as improving zerg's turtling ability, mass spines and pop clouds in front of them so enemy can't engage them:D
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Eh well in my eyes i think that they (Blizzard) will have to think about this one. 200 gas seems a bit steep. especially since, depending on build time, could be tough to stop early DT harass
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On November 07 2011 09:29 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote:
This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy... the main complaint is the timing window, that vipers will take longer to hit the field than an overseer does it's been confirmed that all vipers require is a lair, but its still unlikely the viper build time will be shorter than the overseer build time no one is arguing that vipers aren't as useful as overseers for detection. the problem is that while zerg's ability to detect will overall be stronger, 2port banshee might become so powerful that it's no longer a cheese but a standard timing attack i think it's a legitimate point, but banshee cloak is so prevalent in tvt that increasing the research time of cloak will probably be a net positive for the game overall. perhaps they could move it to the fusion cure, and make banshee cloaking a cheaper reserach, in order to slow down the timings to equalize with the longer build time of a viperthe bigger question to me, as a long time bw player, is why overlords needed to lose their detection in the first place, as i always thought it was easier to use dt vs zerg than terran or protoss
This is just so bad on so many levels.
200/200 Gas is not cheap at all and it doesn't just pop up, especially at the early-mid game if someone is rushing Cloak-shees.
Consider the Gas cost and time to actually get Cloakshees.
Factory - 100 - 60s
Starport - 100 - 50s
Banshee - 100 - 60s
Cloak - 200/200 - 110s
Now you're suggesting to add a Fusion Core on top of that? 150/150 +65s build time?
Lair - 100 Gas - 80s
Viper - 200 Gas - Time Unknown Currently
Considering that it requires 500 Gas to get a Cloak-Shee out, and 100 Lair Gas + Viper's 200gas, the current system is fine as is.
I think Zergs underestimate the time it takes to actually get a Banshee out on the field with Cloak.
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On November 07 2011 09:37 Vandersteen wrote:
Eh well in my eyes i think that they (Blizzard) will have to think about this one. 200 gas seems a bit steep. especially since, depending on build time, could be tough to stop early DT harass
Oh, you know, because it's so hard to build spore crawlers. I think Blizzard is going to have their hands full balancing this unit. Given that it's the only unit capable of detection and giving detection, it's going to be almost mandatory. And each one of it's spells is absolutely badass. As it stands right now it is very powerful, so they can't have it too low on the tech tree. But if the enemy goes with a burrowed/cloaked unit the zerg player needs to get a viper otherwise they are stuck in their base and can only go as far as their creep is spread (spore crawlers). So zerg now has a unit that they have to make in order to have mobile detection, and it also comes with amazing spells. GL Blizz.
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On November 07 2011 09:49 Spacekyod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:37 Vandersteen wrote:
Eh well in my eyes i think that they (Blizzard) will have to think about this one. 200 gas seems a bit steep. especially since, depending on build time, could be tough to stop early DT harass Oh, you know, because it's so hard to build spore crawlers. I think Blizzard is going to have their hands full balancing this unit. Given that it's the only unit capable of detection and giving detection, it's going to be almost mandatory. And each one of it's spells is absolutely badass. As it stands right now it is very powerful, so they can't have it too low on the tech tree. But if the enemy goes with a burrowed/cloaked unit the zerg player needs to get a viper otherwise they are stuck in their base and can only go as far as their creep is spread (spore crawlers). So zerg now has a unit that they have to make in order to have mobile detection, and it also comes with amazing spells. GL Blizz.
That's part of the problem. The Viper has amazing spells, Zergs aren't paying for just Mobile Detection and this point seems to be forgotten in this thread. They're paying the gas for one of their most important and useful spell-casters in the game.
The Viper is the newly-evolved Defiler replacement in HOTS. It's what the Raven should have been to Terrans (as the Science Vessel) in WOL.
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lets compare races
terran detection:
scans
turrets
raven
protoss detection:
obsever
cannon
Zerg detection in hots:
spore crawler
viper
scans are for the terran player an investment, because it does remove a mule for a period of time. So the terran does have the same detection as zerg if you make a corrupter with detection, and we count scans out.
protoss and zerg: same stuff, robo and infestation pit is nearly the same amount of points across the tech tree, however robo can be seen at around 5-9 min while infestation pit is alot later. this might change in hots.
you need detection to counter:
banshees
ghosts
dt's
burrow
observers
creep tumors
because zerg does not make alot of structures at there bases since their "supply depots" fly around, they can have 1 spore crawler at each base which is an investment of 275 minerals when the zerg is on 2base.
this will counter every kind of cloacked units from killing workers until viper tech is in hands of the zerg player. the only things i can see problematic is defensive dts/banshees, burrow roach micro in zvz (at opponents base if you have spores) or nukes since they have huge range and the ghost can go outside detection range.
however protoss suffers from exactly the same problem, considering viper tech is as accsessable as observers is. protoss can aswell not remove creep tumors before observer tech.
tldr: i think its not gonna be "imbalanced" or a problem more than it is now.
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On November 07 2011 09:41 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:29 Zanno wrote:On November 07 2011 09:09 Myrkskog wrote:
This thread is a joke. People did nothing but bitch about how useless the overseer is, and now everyone is crying about how much they want it back! Banshee's killing spore crawlers? An army of dark templars or banshees in the middle of the map an unstoppable force?
You guys are acting as though a single overseer was all you ever needed the entire game for detection. One Viper(who would stop at one of these badasses?), the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade, and you've got an army of overseers.
The Viper is so superior a unit, including for detection, that it's crazy. You guys are crazy.
Crazy... the main complaint is the timing window, that vipers will take longer to hit the field than an overseer does it's been confirmed that all vipers require is a lair, but its still unlikely the viper build time will be shorter than the overseer build time no one is arguing that vipers aren't as useful as overseers for detection. the problem is that while zerg's ability to detect will overall be stronger, 2port banshee might become so powerful that it's no longer a cheese but a standard timing attack i think it's a legitimate point, but banshee cloak is so prevalent in tvt that increasing the research time of cloak will probably be a net positive for the game overall. perhaps they could move it to the fusion cure, and make banshee cloaking a cheaper reserach, in order to slow down the timings to equalize with the longer build time of a viperthe bigger question to me, as a long time bw player, is why overlords needed to lose their detection in the first place, as i always thought it was easier to use dt vs zerg than terran or protoss This is just so bad on so many levels. 200/200 Gas is not cheap at all and it doesn't just pop up, especially at the early-mid game if someone is rushing Cloak-shees. Consider the Gas cost and time to actually get Cloakshees. Factory - 100 - 60s Starport - 100 - 50s Banshee - 100 - 60s Cloak - 200/200 - 110s Now you're suggesting to add a Fusion Core on top of that? 150/150 +65s build time? Lair - 100 Gas - 80s Viper - 200 Gas - Time Unknown Currently Considering that it requires 500 Gas to get a Cloak-Shee out, and 100 Lair Gas + Viper's 200gas, the current system is fine as is. I think Zergs underestimate the time it takes to actually get a Banshee out on the field with Cloak. hey way to bold what i said without actually reading the whole thing, i underlined the rest for you
you could make banshee cloaking a 50/50 upgrade with req fusion core and shuffling the timing around so banshee cloak finishes more in line with the increased build time on vipers
or you could just take the simple route and slap an extra 30 sec or whatever the difference is on cloak research
the problem is that all other builds which are not 2port banshee, the zerg wants to stay on hatch tech for as long as they can, so they can pump drones a bit harder
anything that upsets that really fragile balance will completely underpower zerg if they can't drone, and as it stands tvz is the closest thing to a balanced non-mirror we've got
the position of vipers on the tech tree is already a dangerous experiment, unless they secretly morph from roaches or something, or are built out of hatcheries instead of larva
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I have to admit, burrowed detection sounds pretty sexy!
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lol.... I bet they just make unrooted sporecrawlers give detect.
EDIT, Imagine if sporecrawlers IN overlords gave detect xD
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Ya, that does sound worrisome. I hope they will find a way to give Zerg adequate detection.
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Hmm, I think the only valid complaint against viper is probably the timing window. Generally the overseer timing window is just in time for banshee, and dt rushes.
I'd give my left leg for all overlords to get detection.
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On October 25 2011 18:41 Zephirdd wrote:
Defensively, you would still use Spore crawlers for detection. This is an offensive, versatile, detection method.
I still find it quite weak considering how easy it is to "avoid" spore crawlers, so I'm hoping Zerg will have another form of detection as well.
I started using overseers at each base after the gas change. It's way more effective since no cloaked unit hits air, but now I guess I'll have to burrow a ling?
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On November 07 2011 11:13 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:41 Zephirdd wrote:
Defensively, you would still use Spore crawlers for detection. This is an offensive, versatile, detection method.
I still find it quite weak considering how easy it is to "avoid" spore crawlers, so I'm hoping Zerg will have another form of detection as well. I started using overseers at each base after the gas change. It's way more effective since no cloaked unit hits air, but now I guess I'll have to burrow a ling?
Which brings up an interesting question, does ocular parasite have a static detect range or a fluid one that molds to its host's sight range?
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EPT
