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I'm concerned about the 2 following scenarios:
- You want to take a 3rd vs a protoss who opened DTs
- You want to scout the opponent's base after your sacrificial overlord failed and didn't see anything
The overseer was good for fast response detection that was also able to move at a decent rate. Having to get a viper just to get a third, because a DT sits there and blocks it is not only very expensive, but also takes quite long.
I also see certain protoss all ins or builds becoming a lot more difficult to deal with simply due to the fact that you won't be able to scout properly anymore.
The only solution I see is to remove the detector role from the viper. It just doesn't work to have a powerful spellcaster be your only mobile source of detection. Imagine if HTs had a similar spell and the observer was removed.
A trade-off just won't work and I'm almost certain blizzard will change this.
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I'm not worried about balance, there are always other ways to balance.
I don't like detection being hard to tech to though. It results in people gambling with cloaked all-ins or greedy builds where they skip detection and thereby get a huge economic advantage.
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I would prefer they just give overlords detection again like in brood war, I don't see what the problem with that would be.
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On November 06 2011 21:31 QooQ wrote:
I would prefer they just give overlords detection again like in brood war, I don't see what the problem with that would be.
It would almost completely shut down any cloak base play vs Zerg. this gets worse since we don't have corsairs (which i heard are essential for a "bisu build"). So you would have a feature which can just be used against 2/3 of all games.
I'd like to put the question the other way round: why should Overlords have detection?
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I think it depends on how noticeable it is if the unit is a detector. If it doesn't show which unit the detector is then it could be beneficial as they couldn't snipe them as they did overseers. However, more than the detection part, how is Zerg supposed to scout now? As a lot of others have said, detection will still likely be fine, but scouting is taking a big blow.. And it was already fairly bad.
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this far away from the release of WOL beta toss cannons could still move... we'll see what we see
but there are some real concerns with the new detection mechanic
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Just give the unit that get's the detection a free +3 armor, a 8 armor ultralisk with detection would rock :D
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On November 06 2011 22:30 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 21:31 QooQ wrote:
I would prefer they just give overlords detection again like in brood war, I don't see what the problem with that would be. It would almost completely shut down any cloak base play vs Zerg. this gets worse since we don't have corsairs (which i heard are essential for a "bisu build"). So you would have a feature which can just be used against 2/3 of all games. I'd like to put the question the other way round: why should Overlords have detection?
Agreed, just keep overseers, no one is complaining about them and since the recent patch is see pro players using them in nearly every game.
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I really prefer the overseer, even with it's abilities that didn't get much use, although I REALLY like the changeling. Possibly having detection nerfed just because Viper may be too strong in certain matchups is not something that sounds very appealling to me. This also forces players to get Vipers without a possible need for them, which may limit the use of other units if I'm forced to make vipers.
On top of that, the units I can see most worth it as detection for me is either a speed overlord, or another Viper, which either drives the cost and time of mobile detection up, or forces me to have to babysit my detection viper. See the problem I'm thinking of is zerg units are usually weak, and expendable, so it makes detectors for zerg a lot easier to spot out and kill, esp if its visible. Even if its not visible except by detection, I can see good protoss players abusing this and going DT's.
I'd honestly rather lose an overlord or two than have to worry about getting speed, or worrying about my detection "units".
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First of all, I don't ever see taking the detection away from the viper. Unless it is extremely fragile, I don't ever see using that ability (Maybe for a muta since those should live if you control them properly). But the cost does worry me. Zerg detection options have always been slightly weaker than other races and I see this worstening ht e problem. What wrong with just leaving the overseer in?
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My question is will your units still be able to detect while burrowed. Burrowing a decetion zergling at all of my bases seems like a good idea.
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I feel like using the Viper for detection is really awkward and clunky to use, I don't really like it a whole lot.
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On November 06 2011 23:57 noemercy wrote:
My question is will your units still be able to detect while burrowed. Burrowing a decetion zergling at all of my bases seems like a good idea.
Very creative and effective imo.
As others have said I believe the big problem is the lack of midgame scouting. The fastest you can get overlord speed with a 14 gas pool build, is 7.45. Thats pretty late for scouting certain all ins.
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I think sky zerg will rule the heavens in hots, just look at this combo; broodlords with detection, corruptors vs air, vipers vs clumps off marines, stalkers, hydras. I can't see any better combo, it's the ultimate swarm.
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On November 06 2011 23:57 noemercy wrote:
My question is will your units still be able to detect while burrowed. Burrowing a decetion zergling at all of my bases seems like a good idea.
Even if they could, the vision of a burrowed unit isn't particularly far so to be useful it'd probably need unburrowing.
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since it is hard for the opponent to scout your detectors, building invisible units against a zerg will be a high risk gamble, so i'd expect we will not see it in Hots very often ..
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My guess? It'll be really good if the Zerg player has the money, and really bad if they don't. I'm going to guess that it's going to be heavily rebalanced in beta, and maybe the Ocular Parasite ability will be given to a completely different unit or will be given a cooldown so that one Viper can use many Ocular Parasites. The way things appear to be developing right now, a Protoss who goes for a fast Dark Shrine will be able to defend a significant amount of Zerg aggression very easily and prevent a third from going up at the same time.
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So when can you get this unit out? You need spire, lair or infestation pit?
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On October 25 2011 18:38 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the viper sounds really good as a spell caster unit, but given that you can "only" make one unit a detector with the viper: what happens if you lose that unit? You have to build a new viper, infect a unit (and have a resonable good one close to the viper). How much havoc can some DTs or Banshees wreck till you can have another detector up?
Just wanted to point out. Every mobile detection suffers from that weakness. If it's gone, it's gone for good.
I'm not sure of the alternatives. If it was energy-based, it makes Zerg pretty bullet-proof against Cloakplay if Vipers could keep recasting. 2/3 of the Cloaked units in game do not have AA abilities. None of the burrowed units that can attack from the ground has AA as well.
I'd actually prefer if they removed the ability from the Viper and just kept Overseers. I wouldn't want Zerg to have another reason to make more of a unit that has amazing abilities.
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They should just give the Ocular Parasite ability to the Queen, make it require Lair Tech to use, every Queen can cast it once. simple as that.
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EPT
