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On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote:
It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play.
Welcome to the Robo techpath in PvT.
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On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote:
the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW
Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight.
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On November 07 2011 03:15 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 21:16 aebriol wrote:
It is retarded. Because now zerg have no mobile or range detection unless they go for whatever tech path gives you the viper. And no way of getting it quickly to your army.
So in essence, on lair tech, if you ever want to be offensive and not face auto loss, you have to make vipers AND whatever other tech you would like to use. In essence removing the ability to pick a tech path other than the viper on lair tech unless your opponent is dumb and lets you see his entire base so you are certain that cloaked units isn't an issue.
Right now if you are going roach hydra, and the opponent goes DT's into chargelot archon, you can morph a few overseers and attack before he changes his tech.
With this, he can go DT and expand behind it and be 100% completely safe - because it is impossible for you to mount any offense with your ground army, because you have no mobile detection.
In essence this should force zerg to always make go for viper tech first, regardless of what style they want to play. Welcome to the Robo techpath in PvT.
its not the same thing..... zerg pretty much have to spend 200/200 everytime they need detection. and guess what happens if the unit u put the detection on dies? u have to spend ANOTHER 200/200 for another viper with an eye. its only 1 eye per viper. so if u put the detection on a overlord for example and the overlord dies ur pretty much screwed unless u spend a tremendous amount of money on vipers.
its stupid as hell. they should have just left the fucking overseer in, it was actually the best scout zerg had and wasnt hurting anything. there was NO REASON to remove that unit other then "herp derp, well we got to remove something! hmm, lets try overseer and fuck with zergs detection a bit". i mean seriously... there was no reason to remove the overseer nor carrier. mothership made sense, but all they did with Mship was move the fucking gimmick of it to the terran race because dustin just needs to make terrans as cool as holy shit.
btw, viper cost like 3 supply.
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Canada360 Posts
did you guys know that the viper can keep on casting ocular parasite whenever the parasited unit dies?
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I hate this idea... I thought they were going to be making detection better, not worse. I'd rather have the option of the overseer and the viper, than be limited to just one. Or why don't we just go back to the broodwar days and give all overlords vision.
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I'd say it's not as bad as all that depending on how games will start playing out in HotS. My guess is that making vipers will become standard because of the powerful spells anyways, so you'll have detection on top of it pretty much as a bonus. And hey, there's games where you might not even need the detection, so you'll have a cloud or a snatched siege tank that much earlier. I don't see it as a trade-off at all.
As for your detector dying and 100 minerals plus 200 gas going down the drain, that's something that Blizzard can still easily change. Maybe they'll just let us use the ocular ability as much as we want, make it free energy-wise, make the Viper build faster, etc. etc. I'm sure there are good was to balance this.
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On November 07 2011 03:44 DARKHYDRA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote:
the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight.
How did dark templar get buffed?
I don't agree that zerg detection just got much worse. From what I have heard and seen from people playing the actuall beta the spell for detection is not a one time use so I will trust that information. The only difference in this case is that you know need a good unit for mobile detection, that you only really need one of. 200 gas sure but that is the same for ravens right? also it is stright after lair insted of a certen techpath like the Robo is for protoss. And the observer still costs 75 gas for a really weak but cloaked detection.
All in all I don't see the detection so much worse for zerg you still have spores for dt rushes and banshees so it isn't like you will die if you don't rush lair. Sure it might be harder to take a 3rd and 4th before lair but I really don't see that as a big problem.
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I'm concerned about this for several reasons both for and against zerg.
For example, this makes it a lot easier for zergs to snipe observers. With more emphasis on burrowed units and only one legitimate form of detection for Protoss, it could be a problem.
Also, it seems weird to have to build 3 vipers to have 3 detectors.
Oddly enough I kinda think what will happen is it will encourage zerg players to get overlord speed and they'll parasite one overlord and bring a massive pack of them wherever they go.
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Broodwar: overlords come with detection at no additional cost.
WOL: with lair, at the cost of 50m 50g you get one detector.
HOTS: with lair, at the cost of 100m 200g? And supply, You get to cast detection.
Seems like a drastic nerf to me.
There are a few things I'm not clear of about the viper.
Exact cost, mineral, gas and supply?
Energy cost of ocular parasite?
Is it 1 OP per viper or 1 viper can cast it many times?
If 1 viper can cast many times, can it make 4 detectors at a time or is it only 1 OP active at a time?
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I still think that Viper should be morphed from an overseer. As in Overlord -> Overseer -> Viper.
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In the HOTS only terran will have imba detection. Protoss lacks of detection pretty badly, one mistake with obersevers can cost the game !
But this new schema with Viper seems pretty good trade upon overseers. But Zerg almost always will have to go Viper tech !!
But that's true to Protoss to have somekind of detection he has to go robo tech. Only Terran don't suffer from that because he'll always get OC. A good terran doesn't need a unit for detection.
Let's see how Zerg will use this interesting unit !
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muta with parasite is to op against toss anyway so they will change it alot for sure. Just like not knowing is to much for ghosts. Other then that spores are terrible good detection after the buff, taking the overseers job. And well zergs delay lair for so long most of the time, that overseers aren't hitting a scouting timing, so they use slow ovis anyway. And well you want ovi speed anyway :3.
Mosts zergs should admit they never got an overseer anyway, and even if they did only a small part used their abilites. And you can do well without them.
I get them almost every game and used the abilities alot, so op those changelings. (got overseers more often the i did get speed) You really notice that people have no idea how to position them in most games ^.^ .
And i am curious to see if the changed cloak either costs more energy for the terran, or that its complelty canceled after an fungal.
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I don't see the point in detection for the viper. It makes it really awkward to balance seeing how it looks like the viper will have some really powerful spells. But we need detection at a reasonable time and cost. I mean if costs 200 gas, that's friggin' awful. Terran at least has scan until they can get a raven out. If the viper costs any tech at all, it will severely restrict zerg options.
I don't understand why the viper is eliminating the overseer at all. Can't we just have another caster?
On November 07 2011 06:53 namste wrote:
I still think that Viper should be morphed from an overseer. As in Overlord -> Overseer -> Viper.
In that case they should change the name and look of the unit. So it's like the Overweight.
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why can't they just give the occular parasite spell to the queen? it would make so much more sense and make the queen much more interesting as a unit.
it will truly make the queen the ultimate bitch of the zerg army. she's forced to sit and lay eggs, to heal your shit, to guard the hatch from small attacks, to lay down creep for your units, and now she has to pull out her eye when you need to get detection.
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A few weeks ago, on SotG, ARtosis was joking saying that the abduct ability would not only pull colossi out of the death ball, but will also cause all forcefields to be wrecked (cos the colossus steps on it on his way out). Is there any truth in this? Or was it really just a joke?
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I feel that the rationale behind the removal of the Overseer was completely flawed. It was argued that the Overseer *Creates free supply", By being a unit with mostly useless offensive spells, and really only being good for scouting and detecting overall, I really don't see why this argument was not applied to Orbital Commands... If anything, the overseer was underpowered.
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I really don't think giving OP to queen is fair. Mobile detection at only cost of one or 2 less creep tumor? Not taking up space for other units? (productionwise). Also it only costing minerals is really bad. I know I know that Scann is only a mineral opportunity cost as well, but it isn't permanent either.
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the overseer is not useless, its just underused. the problem with the overseer is that the game is not figured out enough, so nobody is able to use it properly. i'm not a pro but i use overseers in zvp to delay robo production, and it's quite effective. i think it's a cool unit and blizzard should keep it in the game, maybe buff the speed/health.
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On November 07 2011 05:51 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 03:44 DARKHYDRA wrote:On November 06 2011 10:07 UniversalMind wrote:
the toss'es saying, I have to go robo whats the big deal. What unit is zerg and terran making, that is giving you these BO losses? I'm curious cause I wanna make these units too cause from the way you all are making it sound they are really strong. Is the Lurker in the game and I missed it? Terran can make a cloak banshee...everyone has problems with banshees
I just find it silly that blizzard didn't touch Terran detection or Protoss detection at all but has nerfed zergs detection to hell since BW Best post in this thread. Zerg went from having the best detection in the game to not so great and now its ok but its gonna cost you quite a bit. Meanwhile both the wraith and darktemplar got buffed but lurkers nowhere in sight. How did dark templar get buffed? I don't agree that zerg detection just got much worse. From what I have heard and seen from people playing the actuall beta the spell for detection is not a one time use so I will trust that information. T he only difference in this case is that you know need a good unit for mobile detection, that you only really need one of. 200 gas sure but that is the same for ravens right? also it is stright after lair insted of a certen techpath like the Robo is for protoss. And the observer still costs 75 gas for a really weak but cloaked detection. All in all I don't see the detection so much worse for zerg you still have spores for dt rushes and banshees so it isn't like you will die if you don't rush lair. Sure it might be harder to take a 3rd and 4th before lair but I really don't see that as a big problem.
terran also have turrets which is common in basicly all matchups except non bio TvT so think of those like spores, then scans, and also raven.
protoss have observer/cannons while zerg had overseer/spores.
It just seems so stupid to have lair needed for detection as zerg..the race is supposed to be mobile, and how fast is the viper?
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Just wanted to say that while most units lose their sight radius when burrowed, banelings don't! and in HOTS they can burrow move. FTW!
Or you could use infestors, since they have a sight radius of 10, burrow move at lair tech and also don't lose that sight radius when burrowed. But I think it's more fun to imagine the little baneling getting the burrow move detection job, he'd be like 'Score! No blowing up for me!', it'd be what every baneling wants to be when they grow up.
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