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On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well).
1. hellions dont cost gas.
2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game.
its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers.
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On October 22 2011 11:51 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:49 awesomoecalypse wrote:If tempest can be kited by vikings, I see no future for protoss in the PvT matchup... The tempest is supposed to be pretty fast from what I understand. In a wierd way, the Tempest seems like the opposite of the carrier. Carriers were great against mech but sucked vs. mass anti-air. The Tempest looks like it will own mass air, but a bunch of ground-to-air like the new Goliath will mess it up. Colossus/Tempest could be crazy potent, actually. Use Tempest to take down everything in the skies, and Colossi to melt ground forces. The only real counter would seem to be something like Battlecruisers. Yes, very potent, with each Colossus costing 300/200 and each Tempest costing 300/300. I'm sure you can get lots of both those onto the field.
and 2 different upgrates paths, upgrades are very important in the PvT matchup
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How to abuse the new corruptor ability in ZvP :
early game: No gas, queens, static defense (Spanishiwa style)
early Mid game (you are on 2 bases):
- keep massing spines&spore, get lair, get spire, get corruptors. Should be completely safe with an absurd amount of static defense.
-Then make masse corruptors, masse queens, masse spine masse spore, progressively reduce your drone count. This should be safe against anything. Get at least 50 corruptors, many queens. Use the new ability of corruptors to get infinite minerals (on your own buildings).
end game: Use the illimited minerals to make lots of hatchs full of larva, and go swarm mode with masse queens & zerglins. Oh, you can get 500 overlords for creep spread.
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On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well). 1. hellions dont cost gas. 2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game. its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers.
I'd also like to mention the fact that workers can just kill the mineral FFs - you should never see full duration unless they have a silly amount of HP.
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On October 22 2011 10:32 Gorg wrote:
so david kim and dustin browder acknowledged a few months ago that early scouting is a big problem in the game at the moment and all they do is remove the only viable scouting option zerg had with the overseer? i hope there will be some kind of substitute specifically for scouting.
Overlords
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On October 22 2011 12:14 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:14 ToguRo wrote:
to the people upset about PvT .... something that is getting overlooked
David Kim said during the panel
"EMP radius to get nerfed Forge upgrades to cost less or less time" Patch will happen in WoL
Im a Zerg but that should help right ?
REALLY? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Forge upgrades need to have a greater impact on some protoss units, such as the stalker for example. +1(+0) is really underwhelming and barely any difference with the stalker's abysmal 1.44 attack speed. Shields need buffing as well, given how expensive they are, they aren't ever worth getting unless p maxes armor and weapons.
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Oh good, terrans got the spider mine. Hopefully with all the new units being mech terran can move away from just spamming marines all game every MU
probably not though
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On October 22 2011 12:10 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:03 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:59 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:45 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:43 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:42 Ballistixz wrote:
[quote]
first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard.
2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again). And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse. what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ? corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill. Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore. Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys.. What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position! you have no idea what the viper cloud does. for all we know it can only effect ground units and last only 5-10 seconds with a very short radius. you also have no clue what the cast range is on vipers so your cute patrol move corruptors would be useless if the cast range is like 4 or 5. what i was saying was that PDD gives u enough time to snipe the vipers without u having to worry about corruptors hurting ur vikings. alternativly u can also use hunter seeker misseles since they were buffed last patch. a: Even if it's only ground units and a short time, zerg has some of the fastest units in the game. Your ability to capitalize on the opening is only limited by your ability to 1a b: Terran would still have to snipe vipers. Thus spread them out. Thus kill vikings. If terran isn't proactive, they can't do shit. c: Spread vipers take more time to kill than you would have without seriously gimping your ground army with viking count.
spread vipers are you serious right now? like i said you have no idea on how vipers work because you havent played it, so your balance whine about a unit that doesnt even exist yet (officially) makes no sense what so ever. how do you know spreading vipers is the best way to control them?
i mean seriously... how can u call a unit, that u know almost nothing about except for what its skills do, imbalanced? it will change tvz yes, but calling it imbalanced just because your mind cant think of a way to deal with a unit that doesnt exist yet (officially) is beyond stupid.
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On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:
1. hellions dont cost gas.
2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game.
its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers.
On the other hand i heard that oracles are like faster than hellions and flying, so there is very little risk involved while harassing whereas you are always risking to lose your hellions and usually most of your mapcontrol if you decide to engage.
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On October 22 2011 12:07 roymarthyup wrote:[spoiler] Show nested quote +
the replicator seems like basically a counter to 1-1-1, an ability to spend 200/200 and get a quick infestor or ghost or raven, or also i dont know about the build time but it seems like the replicator has super fast buildtime meaning if a protoss wants to switch into MASS voidrays he can quickly churn out 10 replicators then turn them all into voidrays and considering stargates cost 150/150 it would take forever to make 10 voidrays, but with replicators you can get a fleet of voidrays quickly.
Hmmm... this sounds like it may most definitely be fairly overpowered. At the very least, it kindof turns Protoss more into Zerg than Protoss. As Zerg, you can spend your early game droning up, expanding, and getting larva stocked up as far as possible so that when an attack comes, you can pump out whatever you need (provided you have the right tech structures).
Now as Protoss, imagine a type of 1-1-1 build of your own, where you get a gateway, robo, and stargate all while pumping out probes and either saving up resources or pumping out replicants. Then, when either you scout the enemy's composition or a push comes, replicate whatever you need. If Terran does some kind of 10 minute marauder push, replicate mass void ray. If they in fact do a 1-1-1, replicate either their siege tanks or even your own immortals.
The strength of it isn't in the cost. Yes, clearly it's highly inefficient cost-wise to create, say, 200-200 stalkers or zealots. However, you need to think of price difference being an opportunity cost which you are paying for the ability to instantly tech switch to whatever perfect composition you want.
This alone may be a reason this doesn't make it past beta.
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i hope hots wont have higher system requirements anyone knows?
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On October 22 2011 12:17 lariat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:14 youngminii wrote:On October 22 2011 12:14 ToguRo wrote:
to the people upset about PvT .... something that is getting overlooked
David Kim said during the panel
"EMP radius to get nerfed Forge upgrades to cost less or less time" Patch will happen in WoL
Im a Zerg but that should help right ?
REALLY? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS Forge upgrades need to have a greater impact on some protoss units, such as the stalker for example. +1(+0) is really underwhelming and barely any difference with the stalker's abysmal 1.44 attack speed. Shields need buffing as well, given how expensive they are, they aren't ever worth getting unless p maxes armor and weapons.
immortals are god mode with the attack upgrade
zealots are tanks with the armor upgrade
i'm a little sad that we're not getting a new ground unit (replicant doesn't count) but oh well, upgrades are still cool
also, you get shield if you want to go for a mix of ground + air, but that never happens in wol
we may see that change in hots, however unlikely
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On October 22 2011 12:18 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
i hope hots wont have higher system requirements anyone knows?
Probably not since they are still using the same engine. 
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On October 22 2011 11:24 sc2holar wrote:
Toss still needs a cheap, fast viable low tech unit.
its funny that protoss are still going to struggle with countering basic T/Z units while Z and T gets advanced space controlling strategy units. I guess its good that protoss finally gets an answer to mass muta, altough an overpriced one. But while we are getting that, the other races get much more advanced and fun stuff. Its like Terran and Zergs are graduating Law school while toss is still stuck in elementary school.
This sums up the Protoss outlook completely.
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I don't like many of Blizzard's ideas for Protoss and Terran I know it's a more Zerg based expansion but really?!?!, I mean, no more Carriers... no Mothership..., 1 thor at a time... Battle hellion...
The Tempest looks good but too hard to get imo.
Maybe the game will be really awesome and will prove me wrong, but maybe it will be a bad sequel, I hope not but who knows...
I hope sc2 tourneys don't switch right away to HotS until the games has developed more.
I don't know what other people think, I just think that rather than being a more awesome game, it's level has gone down compared to WoL, but that's all my opinion.
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OH and the destructible rocks are actually a new thing. There are rocks that you can attack to CLOSE paths called collapsible rocks. This really confused me at first, I thought it was a bug, but it's a defensive measure you can choose to use.
Blizzard and those damn rocks. I like the potential of being able to trap your opponent ala forcefields, though.
GOD DAMNIT I'M SO EXCITED
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You don't really risk losing any of the gas you invested in a hellion drop unless you opt for pre-igniter. I'm not going to comment on the comparative effectiveness to a unit for an expansion that isn't out, but I think it's wrong to say that hellion drops aren't a highly gas efficient kind of harass for the kind of damage they can commonly pull out.
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On October 22 2011 12:20 Termit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:18 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
i hope hots wont have higher system requirements anyone knows? Probably not since they are still using the same engine.
Well you probably could tweak that engine to have ridiculous system requirements. They upped the requirements in WoW several times. But im pretty sure they wont do it in Sc2
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Protoss: cant think of a new unit to add....we'll give u whichever unit u want from one of the other races :D
derp... -_-
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On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well). 1. hellions dont cost gas. 2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game. its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers.
Hellions are very hard to harass with because of their relatively low HP. Fast as they are, they can be surrounded and killed before they really do too much damage.
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EPT
