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On October 22 2011 12:20 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:24 sc2holar wrote:
Toss still needs a cheap, fast viable low tech unit.
its funny that protoss are still going to struggle with countering basic T/Z units while Z and T gets advanced space controlling strategy units. I guess its good that protoss finally gets an answer to mass muta, altough an overpriced one. But while we are getting that, the other races get much more advanced and fun stuff. Its like Terran and Zergs are graduating Law school while toss is still stuck in elementary school. This sums up the Protoss outlook completely.
it just hit me that one possible explanation could be that blizzard are planning to solve protoss problems against tier 1-2 units in a WoL patch rather than in HoTS.
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the replicator is the perfect counter to 1-1-1
a terran spends 150/100 on factory, 50/25 on tech lab, 150/125 on siege tank, and 100/100 on siege tank upgrade in order to get his first siege tank
protoss can effectively spend 200/200 and get ONE siege tank, which is enough to put an advantage into the tosses favor and hold against any 1-1-1 strategy, not to mention the toss can have immortals to support his ONE siege tank.
This is very true. Early tech timing pushes in general will suck vs. Replicators--any time you're spending a ton on tech to get one or two key units out for a specific timing, bypassing that tech cost to copy units will be a handy trick in the Toss arsenal.
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Wow, this sounds like a completely new game rather than an expansion!
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On October 22 2011 12:22 Lazerlike42 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well). 1. hellions dont cost gas. 2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game. its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers. Hellions are very hard to harass with because of their relatively low HP. Fast as they are, they can be surrounded and killed before they really do too much damage.
They have low hp? They seem to last a good while in Toss bases.
It's really entertaining reading some of these posts and then reflecting on the race played by the poster. Particularally, it seems that most Toss seem to agree that we got kind of Fubared yet Terrans and zergs are making a big deal about our super expensive replicator (already ignore the "harass" unit we got) and recall (arbiter. BW).
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On October 22 2011 12:18 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:10 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:03 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:59 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:45 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:43 Active.815 wrote:
[quote]
Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again).
And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse. what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ? corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill. Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore. Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys.. What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position! you have no idea what the viper cloud does. for all we know it can only effect ground units and last only 5-10 seconds with a very short radius. you also have no clue what the cast range is on vipers so your cute patrol move corruptors would be useless if the cast range is like 4 or 5. what i was saying was that PDD gives u enough time to snipe the vipers without u having to worry about corruptors hurting ur vikings. alternativly u can also use hunter seeker misseles since they were buffed last patch. a: Even if it's only ground units and a short time, zerg has some of the fastest units in the game. Your ability to capitalize on the opening is only limited by your ability to 1a b: Terran would still have to snipe vipers. Thus spread them out. Thus kill vikings. If terran isn't proactive, they can't do shit. c: Spread vipers take more time to kill than you would have without seriously gimping your ground army with viking count. spread vipers are you serious right now? like i said you have no idea on how vipers work because you havent played it, so your balance whine about a unit that doesnt even exist yet (officially) makes no sense what so ever. how do you know spreading vipers is the best way to control them? i mean seriously... how can u call a unit, that u know almost nothing about except for what its skills do, imbalanced? it will change tvz yes, but calling it imbalanced just because your mind cant think of a way to deal with a unit that doesnt exist yet (officially) is beyond stupid.
Spread vipers to save them, durp-de-durr, like the colossus-stalker/viking interaction
We've seen pull work=ridiculous vs tanks
Again, if the cloud works at all like what they said, even if it's just against ground, unless you snipe vipers before an engagement you're dead.
beyond stupid is what this unit would do to TvZ if it doesn't get nerfed.
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Wouldnt you be able to make a macro hatchery and drain it with vipers endlessly? Just make a new one because every hatchery has way more than 300 life?
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On October 22 2011 12:33 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +the replicator is the perfect counter to 1-1-1
a terran spends 150/100 on factory, 50/25 on tech lab, 150/125 on siege tank, and 100/100 on siege tank upgrade in order to get his first siege tank
protoss can effectively spend 200/200 and get ONE siege tank, which is enough to put an advantage into the tosses favor and hold against any 1-1-1 strategy, not to mention the toss can have immortals to support his ONE siege tank.
This is very true. Early tech timing pushes in general will suck vs. Replicators--any time you're spending a ton on tech to get one or two key units out for a specific timing, bypassing that tech cost to copy units will be a handy trick in the Toss arsenal.
I don't think it would have as big an implication against 1-1-1's as people think. Replicators are 200/200 currently, thats a HUGE investment given that they will stop the robo from producing immortals.
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The Swarm Host looks very weak in practice to be honest. Spawns very few units very slowly, and the units aren't particularly powerful. In the video they showed, it didn't do much damage, they all died to the Siege tanks.
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I don't know why but entomb makes me think of auto turrets in the mineral line.
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Replicators would be, well duh, a reactive unit. You don't have to sink that 200/200 until you figure you actually want one. You can open robo for intel, and then also have a reactive option from the same tech.
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On October 22 2011 12:22 Lazerlike42 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well). 1. hellions dont cost gas. 2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game. its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers. Hellions are very hard to harass with because of their relatively low HP. Fast as they are, they can be surrounded and killed before they really do too much damage.
You know, I only recommended one person not working under me be fired... just once in my life, because they really deserved it. And they were eventually fired by another guy.
Dude, I hope this is some kind of sarcasm/joke/something. If you think hellions aren't good worker harass.... can someone do something about this misinformation? Seriously.
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On October 22 2011 12:33 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:18 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 12:10 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:03 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:59 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:45 Ballistixz wrote:
[quote]
what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ?
corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill. Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore. Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys.. What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position! you have no idea what the viper cloud does. for all we know it can only effect ground units and last only 5-10 seconds with a very short radius. you also have no clue what the cast range is on vipers so your cute patrol move corruptors would be useless if the cast range is like 4 or 5. what i was saying was that PDD gives u enough time to snipe the vipers without u having to worry about corruptors hurting ur vikings. alternativly u can also use hunter seeker misseles since they were buffed last patch. a: Even if it's only ground units and a short time, zerg has some of the fastest units in the game. Your ability to capitalize on the opening is only limited by your ability to 1a b: Terran would still have to snipe vipers. Thus spread them out. Thus kill vikings. If terran isn't proactive, they can't do shit. c: Spread vipers take more time to kill than you would have without seriously gimping your ground army with viking count. spread vipers are you serious right now? like i said you have no idea on how vipers work because you havent played it, so your balance whine about a unit that doesnt even exist yet (officially) makes no sense what so ever. how do you know spreading vipers is the best way to control them? i mean seriously... how can u call a unit, that u know almost nothing about except for what its skills do, imbalanced? it will change tvz yes, but calling it imbalanced just because your mind cant think of a way to deal with a unit that doesnt exist yet (officially) is beyond stupid. Spread vipers to save them, durp-de-durr, like the colossus-stalker/viking interaction We've seen pull work=ridiculous vs tanks Again, if the cloud works at all like what they said, even if it's just against ground, unless you snipe vipers before an engagement you're dead. beyond stupid is what this unit would do to TvZ if it doesn't get nerfed.
you make me rofl. im done with this retarded argument. if you think that a unit that hasn't even been released yet is imba and needs nerfing before its even tested then that says alot about the mentality of balance whiners in this thread.
i do however find it funny how u havent commented about shredders yet and what they will do in TvZ, ESPECIALLY when it becomes to positional wars.
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On October 22 2011 12:34 Tazerenix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:33 awesomoecalypse wrote:the replicator is the perfect counter to 1-1-1
a terran spends 150/100 on factory, 50/25 on tech lab, 150/125 on siege tank, and 100/100 on siege tank upgrade in order to get his first siege tank
protoss can effectively spend 200/200 and get ONE siege tank, which is enough to put an advantage into the tosses favor and hold against any 1-1-1 strategy, not to mention the toss can have immortals to support his ONE siege tank.
This is very true. Early tech timing pushes in general will suck vs. Replicators--any time you're spending a ton on tech to get one or two key units out for a specific timing, bypassing that tech cost to copy units will be a handy trick in the Toss arsenal. I don't think it would have as big an implication against 1-1-1's as people think. Replicators are 200/200 currently, thats a HUGE investment given that they will stop the robo from producing immortals.
I don't think that will actually be an issue. I remember reading in one of the hands on reviews that Replicators build really fast. Now it will still take away time from immortals but i don't think it will be significant.
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On October 22 2011 12:29 Shiori wrote:
i'm baffled at david kim's comment that p has a "too strong" deathball or a "lot of options." O_O
Yer thought that was kinda random. I quit Protoss cuz they didnt have alot of options lol.
I was hoping that
- the phoenix got an upgrade which gave them some aoe... which was the new unit
- carriers got an ability thingy of some sort
- warp prism got looked at
- they got something to help them on flanks/in smaller engagements
- Zealots got uber nerfed (against terran)
O well. One of those came true.
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On October 22 2011 12:33 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:22 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well). 1. hellions dont cost gas. 2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game. its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers. Hellions are very hard to harass with because of their relatively low HP. Fast as they are, they can be surrounded and killed before they really do too much damage. They have low hp? They seem to last a good while in Toss bases. It's really entertaining reading some of these posts and then reflecting on the race played by the poster. Particularally, it seems that most Toss seem to agree that we got kind of Fubared yet Terrans and zergs are making a big deal about our super expensive replicator (already ignore the "harass" unit we got) and recall (arbiter. BW).
Hmmm... I was actually thinking more vs. Zerg, so you may have a point. I honestly don't see hellions used much vs. Protoss because other than harass, they're not that great for the rest of the game. This is related to one of the reasons they said they implemented the battle hellion: once Protoss gets charge, hellions, which are theoretically good vs. zealots - suddenly become pretty useless.
Versus zerg, you see them more and they are good to deal with lings throughout the entire game - they are just somewhat hard to harass with at this point because zergs have gotten very good at fending them off. Versus Protoss, they're just not good harass, in my opinion, because they are a very high investment to make (at least if you go blue flame) for something that has very little use after the 10 minute mark, and more importantly, blue flame early on is such a huge investment that you have to do absolutely massive damage with it or you get very far behind, so it is high reward but also very high risk - which is probably a good thing.
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David Kim is Hurting E-SPORTS
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Yeah wat up son replicators gonna get ma fungal storms onnnnn
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I don't think it would have as big an implication against 1-1-1's as people think. Replicators are 200/200 currently, thats a HUGE investment given that they will stop the robo from producing immortals.
200/200 isn't that much for a tank given what Terran is investing in upgrades and buildings to get that one early tank you, and Replicators build super fast.
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On October 22 2011 12:38 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:33 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:18 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 12:10 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:03 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:59 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:
[quote]
corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill. Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore. Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys.. What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position! you have no idea what the viper cloud does. for all we know it can only effect ground units and last only 5-10 seconds with a very short radius. you also have no clue what the cast range is on vipers so your cute patrol move corruptors would be useless if the cast range is like 4 or 5. what i was saying was that PDD gives u enough time to snipe the vipers without u having to worry about corruptors hurting ur vikings. alternativly u can also use hunter seeker misseles since they were buffed last patch. a: Even if it's only ground units and a short time, zerg has some of the fastest units in the game. Your ability to capitalize on the opening is only limited by your ability to 1a b: Terran would still have to snipe vipers. Thus spread them out. Thus kill vikings. If terran isn't proactive, they can't do shit. c: Spread vipers take more time to kill than you would have without seriously gimping your ground army with viking count. spread vipers are you serious right now? like i said you have no idea on how vipers work because you havent played it, so your balance whine about a unit that doesnt even exist yet (officially) makes no sense what so ever. how do you know spreading vipers is the best way to control them? i mean seriously... how can u call a unit, that u know almost nothing about except for what its skills do, imbalanced? it will change tvz yes, but calling it imbalanced just because your mind cant think of a way to deal with a unit that doesnt exist yet (officially) is beyond stupid. Spread vipers to save them, durp-de-durr, like the colossus-stalker/viking interaction We've seen pull work=ridiculous vs tanks Again, if the cloud works at all like what they said, even if it's just against ground, unless you snipe vipers before an engagement you're dead. beyond stupid is what this unit would do to TvZ if it doesn't get nerfed. you make me rofl. im done with this retarded argument. if you think that a unit that hasn't even been released yet is imba and needs nerfing before its even tested then that says alot about the mentality of balance whiners in this thread. i do however find it funny how u havent commented about shredders yet and what they will do in TvZ.
Uh, replace leaving a tank or two at each expansion? hoo baby! slightly less expensive anti counterattack unit that doesn't work with anything friendly nearby, and can be outranged by siege units? Awesome, lemme cover the map with those babies while not building anything from my factories in the meantime, and probably spending all my gas!
Argument=retarded because you can't win, lol
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EPT
