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replicators are 200/200 and 4 supply....
protoss has a lot of cool shiny shit, but the amount of gas we are going to need to use this shit is going to deny like 80% of the ideas people are having here.
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On October 22 2011 12:38 Lazerlike42 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:33 Sabu113 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:22 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well). 1. hellions dont cost gas. 2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game. its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers. Hellions are very hard to harass with because of their relatively low HP. Fast as they are, they can be surrounded and killed before they really do too much damage. They have low hp? They seem to last a good while in Toss bases. It's really entertaining reading some of these posts and then reflecting on the race played by the poster. Particularally, it seems that most Toss seem to agree that we got kind of Fubared yet Terrans and zergs are making a big deal about our super expensive replicator (already ignore the "harass" unit we got) and recall (arbiter. BW). Hmmm... I was actually thinking more vs. Zerg, so you may have a point. I honestly don't see hellions used much vs. Protoss because other than harass, they're not that great for the rest of the game. This is related to one of the reasons they said they implemented the battle hellion: once Protoss gets charge, hellions, which are theoretically good vs. zealots - suddenly become pretty useless.
Like chargelots become useless against marauders - a unit they are supposed to counter - when marauders get stim and concussive shells? i want a ranged AoE attack upgrade for my zealots.
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Battle Helions's design is awful and the idea is ridiculous
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On October 22 2011 12:28 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:27 Carras wrote:the general direction this is taking seems good.. i dont agree with the free cannon and recall.. and in the current metagame i think battle hellion would be to powerfull.. imagine, you mass hellions to harras and deny map control or 3rd base to the zerg..just like now..but then,when you move out with your marine tank push,you also have some badass battlehellions that tank a lot of damage and still deal splash...  blizzard thinks hellions have no utility in the late game what rubbish
Please enlighten me.
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did anyone else think it was weird when david kim said that battle hellions are there to combat the problem of late game zealots? I mean really, you're worried about zealots?
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I guess I'm not alone in thinking that the protoss changes really suck.
Blizzard is so clueless when it comes to their own game! Protoss has "a lot of options" "too strong" what?
The carrier is so iconic and yet it's being removed. And both the mothership and carrier is being removed right as people are finding options for it in PvZ and PvT respectively. They even buffed the mothership to make it "more viable" What the hell!?
So protoss still has no early AoE unlike banelings or siege tanks to help them cope with mass tier 1-2 unit mixes meaning we will be reduced to turtling for yet another expansion.
And tempest? How is this a counter to mutalisk? Costs as much as a career... will be instasniped by a critical mass of focus firign mutas... just like isolated thors. Sigh...
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On October 22 2011 12:40 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 12:33 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:18 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 12:10 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:03 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:59 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:
[quote]
lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill.
Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore. Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys.. What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position! you have no idea what the viper cloud does. for all we know it can only effect ground units and last only 5-10 seconds with a very short radius. you also have no clue what the cast range is on vipers so your cute patrol move corruptors would be useless if the cast range is like 4 or 5. what i was saying was that PDD gives u enough time to snipe the vipers without u having to worry about corruptors hurting ur vikings. alternativly u can also use hunter seeker misseles since they were buffed last patch. a: Even if it's only ground units and a short time, zerg has some of the fastest units in the game. Your ability to capitalize on the opening is only limited by your ability to 1a b: Terran would still have to snipe vipers. Thus spread them out. Thus kill vikings. If terran isn't proactive, they can't do shit. c: Spread vipers take more time to kill than you would have without seriously gimping your ground army with viking count. spread vipers are you serious right now? like i said you have no idea on how vipers work because you havent played it, so your balance whine about a unit that doesnt even exist yet (officially) makes no sense what so ever. how do you know spreading vipers is the best way to control them? i mean seriously... how can u call a unit, that u know almost nothing about except for what its skills do, imbalanced? it will change tvz yes, but calling it imbalanced just because your mind cant think of a way to deal with a unit that doesnt exist yet (officially) is beyond stupid. Spread vipers to save them, durp-de-durr, like the colossus-stalker/viking interaction We've seen pull work=ridiculous vs tanks Again, if the cloud works at all like what they said, even if it's just against ground, unless you snipe vipers before an engagement you're dead. beyond stupid is what this unit would do to TvZ if it doesn't get nerfed. you make me rofl. im done with this retarded argument. if you think that a unit that hasn't even been released yet is imba and needs nerfing before its even tested then that says alot about the mentality of balance whiners in this thread. i do however find it funny how u havent commented about shredders yet and what they will do in TvZ. Uh, replace leaving a tank or two at each expansion? hoo baby! slightly less expensive anti counterattack unit that doesn't work with anything friendly nearby, and can be outranged by siege units? Awesome, lemme cover the map with those babies while not building anything from my factories in the meantime, and probably spending all my gas! Argument=retarded because you can't win, lol
no. the argument is retarded because you are balancing whining and QQing about a unit you know nothing about.
in other words you are whining just to whine.
also the only thing that outranges shredders on the ground in the zerg army from what ive read is hydras and broodlords in the air. so again it just shows that u have no clue on what these units can actually do even in ur theorycrafting mind.
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On October 22 2011 12:40 rpgalon wrote:
replicators are 200/200 and 4 supply....
protoss has a lot of cool shiny shit, but the amount of gas we are going to need to use this shit is going to deny like 80% of the ideas people are having here.
Lol, so true. How about actually making zealots and stalkers the strongest T1 units? I think sentries are ruining Blizzard's desire to strengthen them.
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On October 22 2011 12:40 rpgalon wrote:
replicators are 200/200 and 4 supply....
protoss has a lot of cool shiny shit, but the amount of gas we are going to need to use this shit is going to deny like 80% of the ideas people are having here.
Considering you apparently get all the upgrades relevant, including 3/3(/3), I'd say that's actually cost effective.
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On October 22 2011 12:41 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:38 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:33 Sabu113 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:22 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:15 sc2holar wrote:On October 22 2011 12:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:compare that to 0 gas for 4 hellions or 200 gas for TWO banshees that cause permanent economic damage. 400 gas for 4 Hellions...which will definitely die if/when used for harass. Oh, and to get them into your opponent's base, they either need to make a mistake, or you need drop tech. And you'll likely want BFH as well. So really, to get Hellion drops really up and running you need an upgrade, two different production buildings,and a 100/100 medivac in addition to the Hellions themselves, after which they may or may not do huge damage, but will almost certainly die. Whereas for an Oracle ready to harass you need one building, and once you have an Oracle you can hit their mineral line again and again, and can much more easily keep your Oracle alive throughout. It also opens up other utility like shutting down defense or screwing with tech or improved scouting. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. But saying "400 minerals to kill a whole mineral line vs. 200 gas to not kill anything, T imba P sucks!!!11!" is really, really reductive and silly. Right now, JYP has had a decent amount of success with sentry drops. Those take multiple tech structures for the prism and the sentries, and cost a ton of gas. The Oracle does the same thing much, much better, for less investment. For twice the gas of a Phoenix it does vastly better harass than two Phoenixes ever will (and, if you want to combine them, they synergize well). 1. hellions dont cost gas. 2. Killing 20 workers>preventing 20 workers from minging for a limited amount of time. even if its last for a crazy duration like 1 minute, its still better to actually KILL workers and, you know, preventing them from doing anything for the rest of the game. its pretty simple maths. there is no advantage to forcefielding a mineral line compared to killing actual workers. Hellions are very hard to harass with because of their relatively low HP. Fast as they are, they can be surrounded and killed before they really do too much damage. They have low hp? They seem to last a good while in Toss bases. It's really entertaining reading some of these posts and then reflecting on the race played by the poster. Particularally, it seems that most Toss seem to agree that we got kind of Fubared yet Terrans and zergs are making a big deal about our super expensive replicator (already ignore the "harass" unit we got) and recall (arbiter. BW). Hmmm... I was actually thinking more vs. Zerg, so you may have a point. I honestly don't see hellions used much vs. Protoss because other than harass, they're not that great for the rest of the game. This is related to one of the reasons they said they implemented the battle hellion: once Protoss gets charge, hellions, which are theoretically good vs. zealots - suddenly become pretty useless. Like chargelots become useless against marauders - a unit they are supposed to counter - when marauders get stim and concussive shells? i want a ranged AoE attack upgrade for my zealots.
Are you kidding? Chareglots eat marauders alive. The charge ability essentially nullifies marauder the concussive shell, and even if you can still kite while charge is cooling down, force fields+chargelots absolutely dominate marauders. Keep in mind that the chargelots aren't working in isolation, either. They also have (as I said) the sentries, and likely either storms and colossus if not both.
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On October 22 2011 12:35 sitromit wrote:
The Swarm Host looks very weak in practice to be honest. Spawns very few units very slowly, and the units aren't particularly powerful. In the video they showed, it didn't do much damage, they all died to the Siege tanks.
Agreed. Plus, look at the number of swarm hosts that were in that video. I would imagine they're not as cheap as a roach so that's pretty expensive.
If the units they spawned were more like broodling fast or roach tanky, they'd be a lot more practical.
A few questions:
1. Is the hellion's transformation permanent or is it back and forth like a viking and does it cost more $$ to transform?
2. How many mineral patches does the Oracle's ability hit?
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On October 22 2011 12:42 DrunkenTemplar wrote:
did anyone else think it was weird when david kim said that battle hellions are there to combat the problem of late game zealots? I mean really, you're worried about zealots?
I thought it was very weird. I think David Kim is getting too myopic in his balance chair. First you take away imba templars, now zealots? Is protoss supposed to be the weakest race that has no chance of winning unless they land all spells perfectly?
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On October 22 2011 12:43 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:40 rpgalon wrote:
replicators are 200/200 and 4 supply....
protoss has a lot of cool shiny shit, but the amount of gas we are going to need to use this shit is going to deny like 80% of the ideas people are having here. Lol, so true. How about actually making zealots and stalkers the strongest T1 units?
...
oh wait, i almost fell for it.
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On October 22 2011 12:43 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:40 rpgalon wrote:
replicators are 200/200 and 4 supply....
protoss has a lot of cool shiny shit, but the amount of gas we are going to need to use this shit is going to deny like 80% of the ideas people are having here. Considering you apparently get all the upgrades relevant, including 3/3(/3), I'd say that's actually cost effective.
you are wrong, they get skill, not max upgrades.
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On October 22 2011 12:40 rpgalon wrote:
replicators are 200/200 and 4 supply....
protoss has a lot of cool shiny shit, but the amount of gas we are going to need to use this shit is going to deny like 80% of the ideas people are having here.
Well, replicators have to be that magic amount, because nothing that's sub-massive costs more than that, I don't believe.
The other shit could probably use some gas adjustment though, if it needed.
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Burrow-move banelings scares the shit outta me o.0
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Apparantly Terran has no way to deal with chargelots in the late game.....
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They get the skills and upgrades that have been researched. So if your Terran opponent has 3/0 tanks, any tanks you replicate will also be 3/0.
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On October 22 2011 12:43 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:40 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 12:33 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:18 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 12:10 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 12:03 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:59 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:
[quote]
Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you.
let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right?
Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch.
Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o
But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore. Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys.. What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position! you have no idea what the viper cloud does. for all we know it can only effect ground units and last only 5-10 seconds with a very short radius. you also have no clue what the cast range is on vipers so your cute patrol move corruptors would be useless if the cast range is like 4 or 5. what i was saying was that PDD gives u enough time to snipe the vipers without u having to worry about corruptors hurting ur vikings. alternativly u can also use hunter seeker misseles since they were buffed last patch. a: Even if it's only ground units and a short time, zerg has some of the fastest units in the game. Your ability to capitalize on the opening is only limited by your ability to 1a b: Terran would still have to snipe vipers. Thus spread them out. Thus kill vikings. If terran isn't proactive, they can't do shit. c: Spread vipers take more time to kill than you would have without seriously gimping your ground army with viking count. spread vipers are you serious right now? like i said you have no idea on how vipers work because you havent played it, so your balance whine about a unit that doesnt even exist yet (officially) makes no sense what so ever. how do you know spreading vipers is the best way to control them? i mean seriously... how can u call a unit, that u know almost nothing about except for what its skills do, imbalanced? it will change tvz yes, but calling it imbalanced just because your mind cant think of a way to deal with a unit that doesnt exist yet (officially) is beyond stupid. Spread vipers to save them, durp-de-durr, like the colossus-stalker/viking interaction We've seen pull work=ridiculous vs tanks Again, if the cloud works at all like what they said, even if it's just against ground, unless you snipe vipers before an engagement you're dead. beyond stupid is what this unit would do to TvZ if it doesn't get nerfed. you make me rofl. im done with this retarded argument. if you think that a unit that hasn't even been released yet is imba and needs nerfing before its even tested then that says alot about the mentality of balance whiners in this thread. i do however find it funny how u havent commented about shredders yet and what they will do in TvZ. Uh, replace leaving a tank or two at each expansion? hoo baby! slightly less expensive anti counterattack unit that doesn't work with anything friendly nearby, and can be outranged by siege units? Awesome, lemme cover the map with those babies while not building anything from my factories in the meantime, and probably spending all my gas! Argument=retarded because you can't win, lol no. the argument is retarded because you are balancing whining and QQing about a unit you know nothing about. in other words you are whining just to whine. also the only thing that outranges shredders on the ground from what ive read is hydras. so again it just shows that u have no clue on what these units can actually do even in ur theorycrafting mind.
Are hydras a siege unit?
Also, you'd have to be extremely retarded to not understand how fundamentally broken a pull/melee only cloud ability would be in TvZ. Seriously. Melee range marines/tanks versus ling/bling? Have fun! Trying to run away? nuh-uh, fungal growth! No infestors? who cares, lings are still fucking ninjas.
Ohwait, roflrofl, ur tanks are gone. Have fun against ling/bling with no tanks/NP'd tanks 
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On October 22 2011 12:49 Nosforit wrote:
They get the skills and upgrades that have been researched. So if your Terran opponent has 3/0 tanks, any tanks you replicate will also be 3/0.
They auto get skills, regardless of being researched or not. That was actually intentionally pointed out. Armor/Weapon/Shield upgrades are still unknown.
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EPT
