On September 27 2011 03:36 Sighstorm wrote: Can anyone explain to me why Huk being in code S and only getting top 8 finishes is sub-major LANs makes Stephano's ladder run less impressive?
I will gladly donate €100,- to anyone one who has posted in this thread who can accomplish the same feat (64-2) in the next month (with the same strating conditions: EU GM)(without cheating obviously).
I'm looking forward to see him play at IPL3.
Well a ladder run shouldn't be that impressive to start with... Also every time Huk goes to Europe he leaves with an account at the top of the Euro ladder, which is just hilarious.
On September 26 2011 08:07 Lunas wrote: Alot of jealousy from the NA sc2 fans. If Stephano was infact from US and not French Im sure he would have like a million fans.
I don't get it really how come the foreign community cant just be happy that we got a few new and up coming players no matter where they from.
why would we be jealous we have plenty of high level zergs who have actually proven they can compete on lan and not just ladder.. wats with all the americn hatred on this site nowadays..
Haters : Ok guys, here is how we are going to try to discredite Stephano, we will say in every post were his name is quoted that he needs to play Lan, because, like everyone knows beating koreans and being nearly undefeated online is worthless and means nothing !
Very clean games this week end for stephano in Fxo KOTH and Scan dignitas invitational ( he won both btw )
LAN is the only thing that matters. There is a long standing phrase in ESports, "If it wasn't on LAN it didn't happen". That sums up the relevance of Stephano beating MMA on 400ms at 7am when MMA had stayed up all night, having played the all star game at GSL during the day in a game where both players had already qualified for the tournament in question.
Yes right, online tournaments don't mean shit...... oh wait. Are you seriously saying that online tournaments have no value? Because then Nerchio is a bad player.
Nerchio needs to prove himself on LAN too.
The value of online tournaments, ESPECIALLY online tournaments which are not major like TSL or IPL is massively lower than LAN events for several reasons:
1. Players do not show their best strats and build for $100 tournaments. 2. Some players (often not always Koreans) are playing with a lot of lag. 3. Players are often either waking up in the middle of the night to play, or playing through the night. When Stephano beat MMA he was playing at 7am Korean time having played all night and having played in GSL that same day, while Stephano was playing at about 12pm French time, which is pretty standard/nice times for a gamer. Do you see how perhaps this is not a valuable means by which to ascertain an accurate measure of player skill?
Your error is that you don't see the bigger picture.
Stephano showed early this summer that he was able to compete with the very best foreigners at LAN while still being in school. Since then there have been several strong indications that he's improved drastically, such as very impressive online tournament results, being able to focus on SC2 full time, outstanding ladder performance, praise and recognition from Korean players - and the big one, displaying a VERY high level play which comes clear for anyone who's been follow him and actually watched his games.
His victories over MMA and MKP speaks for nothing as separate events but everything included points to him being sick good at the moment. Is he the best foreigner? Hell if I knew, he could very well be. Or not. One thing that is clear though is that he's the most interesting and promising foreign player we have at the moment and deserves all the hype he gets. For good and bad.
That's fine and demonstrates exactly what I think about him, that he's a talented kid who's doing really well for himself right now, but he's not surpassed Huk or Thorzain and he needs to transfer that potential to a big lan result, especially by beating Koreans on LAN.
On September 27 2011 01:39 Tachion wrote: one sixth and one third place? in what were pretty much euro only tournaments? That doesn't support the attention he's getting.
Are you undermining Euro (Foreign) only tournaments? Does every tournament have to have Koreans? We're talking about top foreigners here.
A top foreigner is judged upon his ability to beat Koreans and foreigners.
On September 26 2011 19:16 Velr wrote: I'm not arguing against Koreans winning more/doing better in general. BUT they drop games and series to some players.. Watching these tournaments it did not look like utter domination to me. Why you bring up the really old stuff like DH Invitational (were MC barely won 2-3) is also questionable .
Well the domination is actually getting worse.
Lets no forget as well that Koreans are generally represented by four good players at these LAN's (usually one tip top player, two solid players and a BW/WC3 legend) while the foreigners often have all their best players in attendence.
If Koreans were to have Nestea, MVP, MMA, DRG, Bomber, Losira and Ryung at every international LAN there isn't a chance in hell of a foreigner ever placing top four in the foreseeable future.
why you put ryung in that sentence is beyond me.
I don't think it'll get worse. Lots and lots of foreigners went to korea or are about to. HuK has been doing considerably better than people like Bomber or DRG in GSL. You might blame that on luck or sth. but we have quite a strong player base in korea right now. Add people like Dimaga, TZain, Stephano and probably Nerchio to that and we have like 8 people that can win series against the top notch koreans.
The be their level you have to be constantly beating them. Sure Dimaga beat Nestea by 6 pooling once, but that's no good if you're going to lose 5 bo3's after that.
I wouldn't say Huk has done better than Bomber in GSL. Bomber won Code A for one thing and made Ro8 just like Huk has in Code S.
Ryung is a fucking great player. Better than any foreigner by a mile.
No one says this because Koreans basically always win on LAN. Do you not think it's maybe a little coincidently that a foreigner is far more likely to beat Korean online than at a LAN?
You do realize that the KOR vs EU matchs were on the NA server witch makes them lag both as much ?
EU to NA is much less lag but that's not the point. The point is with lag it throws you both off, it invalidates the match. You could play Tennis in the snow and you'd both have to deal with it, but that wouldn't make it a fair and meaningful match. It makes it a waste of time. Which is exactly what cross server results are. They have to happen in qualifiers, that's fine. But using them as evidence for player skill is absurd. You also have to consider the absurd times at which Koreans play in NA tournaments, generally they stay up all night to the morning playing round after round. Again, this is not a valid way to judge player skill.
On September 27 2011 03:36 Sighstorm wrote: Can anyone explain to me why Huk being in code S and only getting top 8 finishes is sub-major LANs makes Stephano's ladder run less impressive?
I will gladly donate €100,- to anyone one who has posted in this thread who can accomplish the same feat (64-2) in the next month (with the same strating conditions: EU GM)(without cheating obviously).
I'm looking forward to see him play at IPL3.
Well a ladder run shouldn't be that impressive to start with... Also every time Huk goes to Europe he leaves with an account at the top of the Euro ladder, which is just hilarious.
And what sub-major LANs has Huk been at?
The sub-major LAN thing was about Stephano. Sorry for my confusing english.
Well... I can't beat any GM on the EU-server (although this isn't confirmed :p ), so to me it's impressive when a player can consistently beat other GMs and other players with similar MMR.
What Huk's doing is also impressive. And as i said before, what Thorzain does is also impressive. The same is true for Huk, Ret, Mana, IdrA, Naniwa, QXC, Fenix, etc, etc. I just don't understand why some posters are bashing one players accomplishments, because someone else has also shown impressive skill.
I like watching him play because his style is so aggressive.
Usually, when watching a VOD, if you see a Zerg less than 30 supply up on someone in the early midgame you are thinking "no way this guy is going to be able to win".
Yet Stephano is often behind a terran/protoss in food and still beats them.
On September 27 2011 02:40 striderxxx wrote: Any win ratio outside of KR server is pretty meaningless. Select, Nani, Huk, Thorzain had 82-90% win ratios on NA/EU, but are only hoovering 50-60% on KR server.
Going on that kind of streak against the likes of Nerchio, Thorzain, Mana, etc, is no joke. You can try to belittle it as much as you want. That's difficult to do with that level of consistency. If you can't see the praiseworthiness of such a streak, then you don't play much ladder.
It's not the same as winning tournaments but ladder is a place of extreme poles -- cheese, macro, random timing, refined timings. To be able to win that often against the caliber of players he plays against is no small feat.
On September 27 2011 02:40 striderxxx wrote: Any win ratio outside of KR server is pretty meaningless. Select, Nani, Huk, Thorzain had 82-90% win ratios on NA/EU, but are only hoovering 50-60% on KR server.
Going on that kind of streak against the likes of Nerchio, Thorzain, Mana, etc, is no joke. You can try to belittle it as much as you want. That's difficult to do with that level of consistency. If you can't see the praiseworthiness of such a streak, then you don't play much ladder.
I think he means that if Select, Huk, Nani, Thorzain had those win ratios against people like Nerchio, Thorzain (Thorzain vs Thorzain = 100% win, of course), and Mana, etc - and then ending up at 50-60% in Korea, then it's not belittling those people, but affirming that those who have 70+% win rates on korean ladder are the more amazing ones.
On September 27 2011 02:40 striderxxx wrote: Any win ratio outside of KR server is pretty meaningless. Select, Nani, Huk, Thorzain had 82-90% win ratios on NA/EU, but are only hoovering 50-60% on KR server.
Going on that kind of streak against the likes of Nerchio, Thorzain, Mana, etc, is no joke. You can try to belittle it as much as you want. That's difficult to do with that level of consistency. If you can't see the praiseworthiness of such a streak, then you don't play much ladder.
I think he means that if Select, Huk, Nani, Thorzain had those win ratios against people like Nerchio, Thorzain (Thorzain vs Thorzain = 100% win, of course), and Mana, etc - and then ending up at 50-60% in Korea, then it's not belittling those people, but affirming that those who have 70+% win rates on korean ladder are the more amazing ones.
I get that man and I totally agree that KR ladder heroes are amazing; however, I also think a streak of such epic proportions on EU is nothing to sniff at either. I'm just saying it's impressive and there seems to be a bunch of dudes in this thread going "lol ladder, meaningless" or "derp nothing matters but GSL finals". I mean, yeah, it's meaningless but it is also ridiculously difficult to perform that way. Give the man his proper dues is all I'm saying.
On September 27 2011 03:41 rANDY wrote: did he post in this thread?
rotterdam often said that he doesn't read forums or anything like that.
Probably because he's too busy practicing SC2 like most other pro players that don't bother wasting their time theorycrafting whether a certain player is legit or not.
Go watch Ruyng vs Stephano BO 5 series and tell me this kid is one of the best Zerg in the world? I call it BS. Terrible from micro to macro to decision making lol. He's not stand out of all the foreigners at all to me
On September 27 2011 06:42 tuho12345 wrote: Go watch Ruyng vs Stephano BO 5 series and tell me this kid is one of the best Zerg in the world? I call it BS. Terrible from micro to macro to decision making lol. He's not stand out of all the foreigners at all to me
Yeah, I hate to bash on players, but I can't help but feel stephano is only being spotlighted at all just merely because of the coL and Mill. controversy.
I think he still needs to prove himself as a player, and until he starts placing super high in some big tourneys, I'm still gunna be skeptical.
I really hope Stephano makes it out of the open bracket (which is fucking hard I admit) and makes it into pool play. I think he will shine there. He's definately capable of beating a lot of insanely good players. Saying he's not a top player because he has no MAJOR LAN wins is bullshit.
Before Assembly DIMAGA never had won a major tournament but everyone was aware of how sick he is. Anyone that saw Stephano play or played against him is saying the same thing: That kid is fucking sick.
He makes some of the top players look like utter shit. Who are you guys on the forum that don't even recognize this level to judge about him. Even if a LADDERRUN of 64-2 is not the highest accomplishment for a player, it certainly is something very impressive and I'm not sure many others could repeat that ... while I believe not even Stephano could do it again, but he certainly is sick.
I really hate you people judging him only from LAN tournaments... when he was at like... 2 LANs? where he did just fine. Same with Kas. People call him a monster in the scene and you guys would argue he sucks because he did not win a major tournament @ LAN yet?
On September 27 2011 06:42 tuho12345 wrote: Go watch Ruyng vs Stephano BO 5 series and tell me this kid is one of the best Zerg in the world? I call it BS. Terrible from micro to macro to decision making lol. He's not stand out of all the foreigners at all to me
This bashing is ridiculous. You can't just pick one series - everyone can have a bad day. And I bet (almost) all foreigner zergs would look bad versus a player like Ryung. Also almost nobody is stating that he`s one of the best zergs of the world. He is a top foreigner zerg and promising talent.
The col/Mill-Drama certainly did not bring more supporters to Stephano.
Stephanos Ladderrun is impressive. Stephanos showing in online cups is impressive. Stephanos run in the IPL3 qualifier is impressive.
Why do people come here and say they don't understand the hype? Why are they stating he has not proven himself at big LANs? Nobody is saying this.
On September 27 2011 06:52 mTw|NarutO wrote: I really hope Stephano makes it out of the open bracket (which is fucking hard I admit) and makes it into pool play. I think he will shine there. He's definately capable of beating a lot of insanely good players. Saying he's not a top player because he has no MAJOR LAN wins is bullshit.
Before Assembly DIMAGA never had won a major tournament but everyone was aware of how sick he is. Anyone that saw Stephano play or played against him is saying the same thing: That kid is fucking sick.
He makes some of the top players look like utter shit. Who are you guys on the forum that don't even recognize this level to judge about him. Even if a LADDERRUN of 64-2 is not the highest accomplishment for a player, it certainly is something very impressive and I'm not sure many others could repeat that ... while I believe not even Stephano could do it again, but he certainly is sick.
I really hate you people judging him only from LAN tournaments... when he was at like... 2 LANs? where he did just fine. Same with Kas. People call him a monster in the scene and you guys would argue he sucks because he did not win a major tournament @ LAN yet?
Come on.
No one is saying he sucks, they are saying he isn't the God people are making him out to be. I've heard things like "Most talented SC2 player" "Better ZvT than Nestea" etc etc. Of course there is gonna be backlash and disagreement with crap like that. 64-2 on the EU ladder, he's a top EU player, congratz, doesn't mean he is one of the best zergs in the world.
On September 27 2011 06:42 tuho12345 wrote: Go watch Ruyng vs Stephano BO 5 series and tell me this kid is one of the best Zerg in the world? I call it BS. Terrible from micro to macro to decision making lol. He's not stand out of all the foreigners at all to me
Yeah, I hate to bash on players, but I can't help but feel stephano is only being spotlighted at all just merely because of the coL and Mill. controversy.
I think he still needs to prove himself as a player, and until he starts placing super high in some big tourneys, I'm still gunna be skeptical.
Agreed. I've never heard of him till the whole coL and Mill. controversy started. Now it's all about Stephano and how good he is and how he's gonna own everyone.
On September 27 2011 06:52 mTw|NarutO wrote: I really hope Stephano makes it out of the open bracket (which is fucking hard I admit) and makes it into pool play. I think he will shine there. He's definately capable of beating a lot of insanely good players. Saying he's not a top player because he has no MAJOR LAN wins is bullshit.
Before Assembly DIMAGA never had won a major tournament but everyone was aware of how sick he is. Anyone that saw Stephano play or played against him is saying the same thing: That kid is fucking sick.
He makes some of the top players look like utter shit. Who are you guys on the forum that don't even recognize this level to judge about him. Even if a LADDERRUN of 64-2 is not the highest accomplishment for a player, it certainly is something very impressive and I'm not sure many others could repeat that ... while I believe not even Stephano could do it again, but he certainly is sick.
I really hate you people judging him only from LAN tournaments... when he was at like... 2 LANs? where he did just fine. Same with Kas. People call him a monster in the scene and you guys would argue he sucks because he did not win a major tournament @ LAN yet?
Come on.
No one is saying he sucks, they are saying he isn't the God people are making him out to be. I've heard things like "Most talented SC2 player" "Better ZvT than Nestea" etc etc. Of course there is gonna be backlash and disagreement with crap like that. 64-2 on the EU ladder, he's a top EU player, congratz, doesn't mean he is one of the best zergs in the world.
He is one of the best NON - KR Zergs. About that series against Ryung. Look at Ryungs match before that... he 3-0'd Sheth who is hyped by everyone. Not discrediting Sheth in any way, because I think Ryung is a beast.
Still, some of the bashing in here - and thats not disagreeing with the fact that he's worse than NesTea ZvT - is ridiculous.
On September 27 2011 06:52 mTw|NarutO wrote: I really hope Stephano makes it out of the open bracket (which is fucking hard I admit) and makes it into pool play. I think he will shine there. He's definately capable of beating a lot of insanely good players. Saying he's not a top player because he has no MAJOR LAN wins is bullshit.
Before Assembly DIMAGA never had won a major tournament but everyone was aware of how sick he is. Anyone that saw Stephano play or played against him is saying the same thing: That kid is fucking sick.
He makes some of the top players look like utter shit. Who are you guys on the forum that don't even recognize this level to judge about him. Even if a LADDERRUN of 64-2 is not the highest accomplishment for a player, it certainly is something very impressive and I'm not sure many others could repeat that ... while I believe not even Stephano could do it again, but he certainly is sick.
I really hate you people judging him only from LAN tournaments... when he was at like... 2 LANs? where he did just fine. Same with Kas. People call him a monster in the scene and you guys would argue he sucks because he did not win a major tournament @ LAN yet?
Come on.
No one is saying he sucks, they are saying he isn't the God people are making him out to be. I've heard things like "Most talented SC2 player" "Better ZvT than Nestea" etc etc. Of course there is gonna be backlash and disagreement with crap like that. 64-2 on the EU ladder, he's a top EU player, congratz, doesn't mean he is one of the best zergs in the world.
I agree with this. They hype level for him is too much and unjustified at this point, which creates a lot of anti fans because of it. He's not to blame for that of course, but count me as a skeptic as to whether or not he'll turn out to be great or he turns out to be another Kas or Happy, that euros were quick to hype the hell out of prematurely.
EPT
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