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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On the other hand, undervalued as late game compositional supplement against zerg. What are they going to respond with against maxed colossi/carrier/archon/ht, hydras? Corruptors? 7-range neural? On-demand marines that melt faster than they hatch? Which is exactly how Mana killed Dimaga during a map-split macro game, by slowly mixing ~10 carriers into an already great composition. | ||
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BrosephBrostar
United States445 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:59 Thrasymachus725 wrote: I think at the moment, Blizz realizes that there is virtually nothing they can do to carriers that will fix them, thanks to 3 units: The Viking, the Marine and the Corruptor. They all destroy Carriers so brutally due to their range (vikings) their armor (corruptors) and their DPS (marine). How do you expect them to be buffed in a significant way? Increased armor would be just about all they could do, and in reality that won't solve the problem that is how easily they are countered. But if you believe that Blizz doesn't WANT carriers to be good... you are insane. Why wouldn't Blizzard want a unit that they know is fun and interesting to watch and play with to be good? It makes no logical sense. Blizzard realizes that the carrier is broken in relation to other races. The mothership is a single unit (not a whole build), is already used effectively in many cases and requires a small tweak or two to be powerful. It is an easy change. They understand that the carrier requires a fundamental design change to be viable as a build, and it will be a large change. I expect that they are waiting until HOTS to make a change that will be both fun and powerful. It is only at an expansion that they can they add content to make carriers powerful, or alter the units (such as aforementioned Vikings, Marines and Corruptors) that counter carriers so seriously. I think the carrier is in the same place as the hydralisk. It's such an iconic unit that they felt like they had to include it, but it doesn't really fit into the game they've made. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:59 Thrasymachus725 wrote: I think at the moment, Blizz realizes that there is virtually nothing they can do to carriers that will fix them, thanks to 3 units: The Viking, the Marine and the Corruptor. They all destroy Carriers so brutally due to their range (vikings) their armor (corruptors) and their DPS (marine). How do you expect them to be buffed in a significant way? Increased armor would be just about all they could do, and in reality that won't solve the problem that is how easily they are countered. But if you believe that Blizz doesn't WANT carriers to be good... you are insane. Why wouldn't Blizzard want a unit that they know is fun and interesting to watch and play with to be good? It makes no logical sense. Blizzard realizes that the carrier is broken in relation to other races. The mothership is a single unit (not a whole build), is already used effectively in many cases and requires a small tweak or two to be powerful. It is an easy change. They understand that the carrier requires a fundamental design change to be viable as a build, and it will be a large change. I expect that they are waiting until HOTS to make a change that will be both fun and powerful. It is only at an expansion that they can they add content to make carriers powerful, or alter the units (such as aforementioned Vikings, Marines and Corruptors) that counter carriers so seriously. great points. Still sad that toss has a terribly inefficient endgame unit that will hinder their options till the expansion. Reminds me of a bunch of other problems with toss  Waiting until HotS to fix these problems might be too late, as we can see from the recent GSL results. | ||
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
We decided on the Neural Parasite change in order to create more decision making in terms of the positioning of the Infestor as well as what units are needed at which locations in order to better protect the Infestor casting this spell. Previously, it felt too easy to cast and too difficult to counter without having siege range units. Colo and siege tanks are two big infestor targets... Makes no sense. I could see protoss with no colo but archons. Do not see many non tank armies with thors. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
So, basically, protoss is a race for "noobs" and terrans are for "masters". And Blizz trying to reach balance in this situation. Which obviously not working well. Thats why I'd rather them concentrating on difficulty of race (pulling of certain strategies), not only units/building stats. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:59 kedinik wrote: I think carrier play will never be useful against terran. Too many cheap and efficient anti-air options. On the other hand, undervalued as late game compositional supplement against zerg. What are they going to respond with against maxed colossi/carrier/archon/ht, hydras? Corruptors? 7-range neural? On-demand marines that melt faster than they hatch? Which is exactly how Mana killed Dimaga during a map-split macro game, by slowly mixing ~10 carriers into an already great composition. Since corruptors hard counter both colossi and carrier, then yeah they seem like a decent option. They will probably lose the ground battle, but then since they are obviously on like 6 base at this stage of the game they could just remax with roach. You can't exactly remax with colossus/carrier/archon/HT after you lose it all, lol that is some serious gas consumption. | ||
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HellionDrop
281 Posts
On September 23 2011 13:09 bokeevboke wrote: it feels Blizzard is going wrong way, or thinking too shallow when balancing the game. I always wondered why they made protoss easy a-move race (colossi death ball) and made terrans very hard but more rewarding (MM micro, ghost usage). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying protoss doesn't involve any micro, its my general perception. So, basically, protoss is a race for "noobs" and terrans are for "masters". And Blizz trying to reach balance in this situation. Which obviously not working well. Thats why I'd rather them concentrating on difficulty of race (pulling of certain strategies), not only units/building stats. i think toss micro is generally much harder than zerg except in maybe early zvz. i think toss is too heavily dependent on gateway units | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On September 23 2011 13:15 HellionDrop wrote: i think toss micro is generally much harder than zerg except in maybe early zvz. i think toss is too heavily dependent on gateway units i think toss is too heavily dependent on | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
Also, carriers aren't exactly an interesting unit. Late game protoss would require very little micro or positioning. | ||
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
I like their reasoning behind the hellion change though, although tanks are still ridiculously good vs bio | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
We first started looking at this change due to the 11 11 rush vs. zerg and also evaluated how easy it is to just put down a bunker on the offensive to do some minor damage early on in terran vs. zerg match-ups without much sacrifice from the terran player. I knew this was a subtle bunker change! They can't leave it alone! ^^ | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
Lets go over, shall we? SC1: Air units dominate and are too difficult to counter (among other problems) SCBW: Corsairs, Valks, Devourers are added to shift the game in other directions. WC3:RoC: Casters are very powerful and are being massed, due to the lack of counters. Some rock paper scissor style counters aren't working very well and races are a little too predictable and the hero is little more than a very powerful unit. WC3:TFT: New armor and damage types make casters both easy to counter, and stronger support. Ranged non-casters are now effective. New tavern heroes open up many options and the new shops provide new effective uses for heroes. WoW: Every expansion has fixed many issues in the game from story telling, to characterization, to customization, graphics. All of these issue were changed based on feedback both internal and external. With the occasional exception in WoW, there have been no patches that have been able to fix the problems that existed in the game at that point. If in SC1, they had added armor on marines, or increased the range on goliaths, or increased their damage, or gave dragoons increased attack speed, or archons increased range... ALL of these changes would have helped the races against Mutalisks (the major problem of vanilla SC1), but would have been bandaids and would have thrown the game off. There were FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN PROBLEMS with the game that needed to be fixed with an expansion, because they required sweeping fixes. They can't simply be patched, because they can't POSSIBLY understand all the effects of the massive changes without large scale testing and counterbalances. There are fundamental design problems with the balance of Starcraft 2, that prevent it from moving forward in certain directions, as there are with EVERY game. These design problems were not anticipated. They were not expected, or desired by blizzard. But they showed up. They are recognized. They are not ignored. Every expansion Blizzard has ever done has proved this. Expect the expansion to allow Protoss to deal with the Vikings and marines that limit protoss so much. Expect the expansion to allow Zerg to get some kind of way to punish turtlers and death balls. Expect the expansion to allow Reapers to be used into the late game. Expect the expansion to make Colossi more than just an a-move unit, and one that takes skill to use. Expect an ability or an overhaul for Hydralisks that gives them a place in the game. Expect heavier air builds to be viable for every race by the end of LotV. Expect Protoss and Zerg to have building upgrades and the flexibility and/or options that the Terran enjoys. Expect Protoss as a whole to not be so 1a oriented. Expect Zerg as a whole to be able to direct the game and not be so reactionary. Expect Terran to be able to play as a reactionary race if they need to be. All of these are problems that exist in the game that cannot be fixed with a simple patch. They will take expansions. Don't fool yourself... Wings of Liberty is a beta test for HotS and HotS is a beta test for LotV. | ||
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Thugtronik
New Zealand452 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
Ok ideas are just coming to me now, so I'm gonna stream of consciousness, the following (and previous) may be stupid. Or just make colossus laser a toggle on and off thing, that is strong, does splash in a line like hellions, and builds up from low range to 9 when it goes on, and has friendly fire splash. Hire me Blizzard! | ||
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
On September 23 2011 10:54 ch33psh33p wrote: In the end, it came down to a choice between the Carrier and the Mothership WHAT THE FUCK. This, and seriously, given that choice, why would any one go with the mothership? It's a hero and doesn't belong in standard protoss play. I'm glad some people have managed to make it work, but it should be a rare thing; a unit mostly used for casual games, single player, and humiliation. | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On September 23 2011 14:07 phyren wrote: This, and seriously, given that choice, why would any one go with the mothership? It's a hero and doesn't belong in standard protoss play. I'm glad some people have managed to make it work, but it should be a rare thing; a unit mostly used for casual games, single player, and humiliation. Read earlier in the thread. Good explanation of why they chose the mothership and not the carrier. Don't think for a second Blizz flipped a coin and it came up mothership. They had very good reason to buff mothership rather than carrier. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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badwater
Canada77 Posts
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Brotocol
243 Posts
How is blink rush is too much when 1-1-1's mere existence is almost an auto-win in TvP. Priorities. | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
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