|
Wait, what?
I'm killing eSports when I make a joke about my friend playing Protoss? What?
If it's "unprofessional" for me to make Terran/Protoss/Zerg aimed jokes, I don't care. I'm not a professional. I'm a fan. Packers fans make *a lot* worse jokes about Vikings fans, and I'm pretty sure the NFL is still going strong.
You know what IS unprofessional? Everytime the community gets a whiff of even a slight change in the Drama Winds they attack. There can be 100 pages about some random tweet before anyone actually knows any more than a random guy's ideas on the issue. Just look at any thread with even an ounce of community drama and count the number of pitchforks before we hear the other half of the issue. Then, when it comes to light, we all back away and pat ourselves on the back because we're a great community.
I'm going to keep making my Protoss jokes. I'm 100% certain a new fan isn't going to leave because I teased them over picking Zerg. And if he did, then he would've left the minute he hit a guy who called him a "motherfucking fag cheeser" on Battle.net anyway.
|
On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil.
Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world. 
|
On September 23 2011 04:37 Megatronn wrote:
God damn Brazilians, first you ruin my language and now my reputation in the gaming community!
Hahahahaha, better then ruin your country.
|
Russians always cheese me on ladder...
|
On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world.
Just curious, why is it not great?
|
On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world.
You don't want to grow esports? Major "sports" are way bigger than chess, and rivalries, hating on opponents you don't like, complaining about (officiating, race balance, lame strategies, injuries) is a huge part of fan enjoyment.
I occasionally hear about how Zerg players are always whiny while Terran players are always "good mannered". And lately I've been hearing how more and more protoss are becoming more whiny.
Anyone want to guess why that is? Think now.
|
On September 23 2011 04:47 Morphling_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world. You don't want to grow esports? Major "sports" are way bigger than chess, and rivalries, hating on opponents you don't like, complaining about (officiating, race balance, lame strategies, injuries) is a huge part of fan enjoyment. I occasionally hear about how Zerg players are always whiny while Terran players are always "good mannered". And lately I've been hearing how more and more protoss are becoming more whiny. Anyone want to guess why that is? Think now.
lol, just because we want SC2 to become more popular doesn't mean we want it to go to shit.
"For the sake of E-Sports" and the like is becoming a term I'm starting to despise.
|
thats what make it so fun
-share the frustrations with people from the same race
-cheer for players from the same race
but i know that a lot of people just cry about OP and shit
|
The loyalty people feel to their particular races in StarCraft reminds me a lot of loyalty people have to sports teams in soccer/baseball whatever.
You could argue the competitiveness between races adds a spice to the pro scene in the same way team rivalries do in sports. People seem to show a lot more support for players of their 'race' in StarCraft then players from a team they like or from the same nation as them.
I guess the balance whine gets tiresome especially at lower levels but I"m not sure you can have one without the other.
And I'm not sure it damages the credibility of the StarCraft community, when its more of a common human trait that emerges in any sort of competitive activity and there are far worse examples of it. Ever been to a soccer game between two rival teams? Now thats what you call BM...
|
On September 23 2011 04:47 Morphling_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world. You don't want to grow esports? Major "sports" are way bigger than chess, and rivalries, hating on opponents you don't like, complaining about (officiating, race balance, lame strategies, injuries) is a huge part of fan enjoyment.
I don't feel a need for SC2 to be bigger than chess at all - chess is perfectly big enough, has a large following, and has relatively no related bullshit. Tennis is fine too, you can't really argue it's not big enough. Oriental martial arts as well. All these sports have a LOT more in common with Starcraft than any of the most popular physical sports do.
The "fan enjoyment" you're talking about is really not something that Starcraft can build on in the long run. Such fans are more likely to just follow an aggressive physical sport over Starcraft anyway, it's just the nature of the game.
To be blunt - the profile of an average basketball fan and profile of an average Starcraft fan are worlds apart. Basketball can grow and profit from the kind of sports culture you're talking about, Starcraft can't.
That said, I won't really care about the growth of Starcraft if in the process it turns into something that I can no longer identify with or enjoy.
|
If a larger percentage of people in one race whine, it means that race is likely disadvantaged. If a larger percentage of people think a certain race is easy to play, that means that race is probably easy to play.
If today I triple the cost of a worker of one race, 100% of that race's players would flood the forums, while the other races would have nothing to complain about. In reality it's not so drastic, but is this a difficult concept?
Why try to say everything is equal and every player's success is based 100% on their talent when it's not true? I really hate presumptuous posts like this.
Also, please don't compare SC2 to chess and basketball. In chess and basketball everyone is bound by the same rules and abilities and "units" of control. Everything else is based on that person's talent (born smarter / born taller / more experienced). It would be a valid comparison if in Basketball, one team wore flip flops and had 8 players and were forbidden to do layups, while the other team wore high heels and had 12 and could take 4 steps without dribbling. Because SC2 has such diverse mechanics across races (which is what makes it a great game), the same quality makes balance immeasurable, leaving only the subjective sentiments of the gamer to determine what is fair and what is not. And right now, it is far from fair.
|
While I agree that just because you play a certain race doesn't mean you don't know how to micro or macro and such,
The difference between your E-Racism and racism in the world is that the races in starcraft and distinctly different and are made to be different. It isn't correct to say that black men is stronger than asian men, nor is it true as a broad statement, but is it true to say that a zealot is stronger 1 on one than a zergling, in that in a 1 on 1 fight a zealot will kill a zergling. Race for humans is a social construct meaning that it is something defined and created by society, Races in starcraft were designed and created to be different by blizzard.
I think also that as a community it is actually a good thing to have a race and to be attached to that race. I think one aught to think of races much more like teams in baseball where it isn't wrong to root for your team and debatably not wrong to hate on the other team (or the yankees ).
I think it is foolish though to attempt to see all of the races as being equal, and as it is a game with constant fluctuations in both metagame (strategy/all-in of the week) as well as patch changes, I don't think it is wise to assume that the races truly are equal in the different categories of play.
I am not saying here that we should stop playing and just complain about them, because the great thing about starcraft is attempting to abuse what your race has and what other races lack, but I do think it is okay to know the races are different and should be so.
|
On September 23 2011 02:28 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:15 Mordiford wrote:On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players  In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game. Also, Brazilians... Please leave your bigotry out of these forums.
Not sure if you're being oversensitive or you misunderstood my post entirely. I was making a lighthearted comment about the perception of Brazilians in the Dota genre, I was not in any way disparaging Brazilians. Anyone who has played a Dota-like game should have some experience with the stigma attached with Brazilians. Regardless, all of this is off-topic, but the actual original post was a massive wall of text with a pot-shot at another game's community at the end.
My intention was not to massively derail the thread.
|
On September 23 2011 05:03 FMJ wrote:
If a larger percentage of people in one race whine, it means that race is likely disadvantaged. If a larger percentage of people think a certain race is easy to play, that means that race is probably easy to play.
If today I triple the cost of a worker of one race, 100% of that race's players would flood the forums, while the other races would have nothing to complain about. In reality it's not so drastic, but is this a difficult concept?
Why try to say everything is equal and every player's success is based 100% on their talent when it's not true? I really hate presumptuous posts like this.
Also, please don't compare SC2 to chess and basketball. In chess and basketball everyone is bound by the same rules and abilities and "units" of control. Everything else is based on that person's talent (born smarter / born taller / more experienced). Because SC2 has such diverse mechanics (which is what makes it a great game), the same quality makes balance immeasurable, leaving only the subjective sentiments of the gamer to determine what is fair and what is not. And right now, it is far from fair.
A couple months ago, a lot of zerg players were crying "imbalance! imbalance!" in the PvZ matchup. Then professional players changed how they played and now protoss are crying "imbalance! imbalance!"
Popular opinion can't be readily accepted as fact since most people really fucking dumb and have a very narrow perception from their one race.
Also, nobody is comparing SC2 to chess or basketball, we're comparing communities surrounding these competitions.
|
It's simply human nature for people to group themselves together in an "us vs. them" mentality. You aren't ever going to change human nature no matter how hard you try. And the "herd instinct" is perhaps one of the strongest desires possible, following things like food and sex.
I'm a random player so I laugh at people whining from every side. I win with race X and when they whine and say the race is OP, I challenge them with race Y and still win. The game certainly used to be very imbalanced, but the recent patches I think have actually been doing a very good job of bringing things into line.
|
On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
A couple months ago, a lot of zerg players were crying "imbalance! imbalance!" in the PvZ matchup. Then professional players changed how they played and now protoss are crying "imbalance! imbalance!"
How does this refute the argument that the races clearly aren't equal? How does this support the argument that all races are balanced and equally difficult to play?
+ Show Spoiler +It doesn't. On both counts.
Also, the pros changed how they played after a massive infestor buff, making the metagame shift a result of game balance change, NOT professional player ingenuity.
On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
Popular opinion can't be readily accepted as fact since most people really fucking dumb and have a very narrow perception from their one race.
I agree that popular opinion can't be accepted as objective truth, but what about the popular opinion from the pro players? What other indicator do you have? The whims of Dustin Bowder? Blizzard's "balance" system, the mmr, which forces a 50% win ratio on all players, then says "all players are at 50% win, the game is balanced"? If a smart student and a dumb student who is given a cheat sheet always tie each other on exams, are they of equal intelligence?
Also, even if 98% of players in each race were really dumb, how come the 98% of dumb people in race A are content to remain silent, while the 98% of dumb people in race B waste time and effort complaining?
Finally, game design is 100% of SC2. Not 99.99%, but 100%. I could replace all the units with craptacular 2D sprites, people would still play the game. I could mute the sound, people will play the game. But if I broke game balance, nobody would play the game. This is why it's a huge deal, this is why it's difficult to design around, and this is why people will never stop complaining about it. Essentially, if you don't have an opinion on balance, you don't really care for the game.
|
The way I see it, there are two different types of this.
The first type is a statement such as "oh you were behind. fortunately for you tanks kill everything -_-"
The second type is a statement like "your race is overpowered and you only win because you play it, and I only lose because the race I play is the weakest" which is what turns any unmoderated discussion into world of warcraft barrens chat.
The people that have that attitude need to learn how to deal with losing. In a similar fashion, any aggression that they are not prepared for becomes cheese or all in whether it was or not, all the while top koreans like DRG and Nada are saying players outside of korea don't take enough risks.
|
people should just stop thinking they're smarter or better cuz they play X race
even that so-said super mannered guy ePGimix called me bad when I beat him and he said protoss didn't require any skill... lol
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different
|
On September 23 2011 05:22 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
A couple months ago, a lot of zerg players were crying "imbalance! imbalance!" in the PvZ matchup. Then professional players changed how they played and now protoss are crying "imbalance! imbalance!"
How does this refute the argument that the races clearly aren't equal? How does this support the argument that all races are balanced and equally difficult to play? + Show Spoiler +It doesn't. On both counts. Also, the pros changed how they played after a massive infestor buff, making the metagame shift a result of game balance change, NOT professional player ingenuity. Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
Popular opinion can't be readily accepted as fact since most people really fucking dumb and have a very narrow perception from their one race.
I agree that popular opinion can't be accepted as objective truth, but what about the popular opinion from the pro players? What other indicator do you have? The whims of Dustin Bowder? Blizzard's "balance" system, the mmr, which forces a 50% win ratio on all players, then says "all players are at 50% win, the game is balanced"? If a smart student and a dumb student who is given a cheat sheet always tie each other on exams, are they of equal intelligence? Also, even if 98% of players in each race were really dumb, how come the 98% of dumb people in race A are content to remain silent, while the 98% of dumb people in race B waste time and effort complaining?
Players need to figure out how to win. That's how the game becomes balanced. If we see that a race is having a hard time, you can't just say "meh the game is imbalanced! nothing we can do until blizzard patches it!" You have wait on the pro players to come up with solutions. I think the tools are all here, all the blatant and egregious imbalanced removed (5 rax reaper lol). Complaining yields no results.
SaviOr era: People said PvZ was an impossible matchup, that it was completely imbalanced. Zerg will auto win against protoss! There's no hope at all! Then Bisu came into the fray and blew everyone's minds with sairs and DT's and proved that the tools were there, but no one bothered to use them yet.
|
There are only two types of people that I hate in the world: Those that are intolerant of other people's race, and the Terran.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
