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Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community.
Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players 
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On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players
In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game.
Also, Brazilians...
User was warned for this post
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On September 23 2011 02:15 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game. Also, Brazilians...
What about them?
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On September 23 2011 02:26 k10forgotten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:15 Mordiford wrote:On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game. Also, Brazilians... What about them?
There's a weird stigma attached to Brazilians in the MobA community in general. For some reason people don't like playing with them, firstly due to the communication issue and secondly because people think they're all bad at the game.
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On September 23 2011 02:15 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game. Also, Brazilians...
Please leave your bigotry out of these forums.
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On September 23 2011 02:28 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:26 k10forgotten wrote:On September 23 2011 02:15 Mordiford wrote:On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game. Also, Brazilians... What about them? There's a weird stigma attached to Brazilians in the MobA community in general. For some reason people don't like playing with them, firstly due to the communication issue and secondly because people think they're all bad at the game.
LOL Epic Derail.
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In general, people from the US are the worst all round. They treat brazilians like crap, and firmly believe anyone who speaks spanish is brazilian, and treat them like crap as well.
I don't care if the player is good or bad, the way US folk treat other gamers is just... wrong sometimes. It really makes me wonder why some people idolize them so much, they're usually truly horrible to play with. Good thing I can play SC2 with my friends and don't have to listen to the trolls.
Note: This is about the whole brazilian thing. I really don't understand how it got derailed though.
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Fair points but I think the difficulty in being more civilized is it only takes one person to bring it all down. You can have a million people being good forums users and one person who cries loud enough that people respond and then we devolve really quick again.
Also, I think we derailed because of the OP's last statement. Contrasting us against HoN players and attaching a negative connotation to them seems to be what started the discussion on Brazilian player.
Back OT: I think it's a worthwhile thing to remind people but difficult to implement. I think it might help if people just avoided the troll bait but again, it's the internet. When there's something wrong, doesn't matter what time of day it is, or what you were doing, you've got to drop everything to prove this person wrong. Until that self-defense reflex unengages, I think we're gonna continue to suffer from the problem you discribe.
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OP, use your enter key a little bit more, I hate reading walls of text. 
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In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game.
Also, Brazilians...
:/ That's sad. I think I'll stop trying to make my friends believe that not all americans are walking packages of lard eating mcdonalds and sucking at WoW and SC2.
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Are there actually brazilians who are ignorant to the fact that brazilians carry a negative stigma in online games.
Its cos they are in the same time zone as US and speak a different language. not much else to it.
there was an xkcd cartoon about it...
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On September 23 2011 02:32 mordk wrote:
In general, people from the US are the worst all round. They treat brazilians like crap, and firmly believe anyone who speaks spanish is brazilian, and treat them like crap as well.
I don't care if the player is good or bad, the way US folk treat other gamers is just... wrong sometimes. It really makes me wonder why some people idolize them so much, they're usually truly horrible to play with. Good thing I can play SC2 with my friends and don't have to listen to the trolls.
Note: This is about the whole brazilian thing. I really don't understand how it got derailed though.
Quit derailing the thread with your bullshit.
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First of all everyone please stop talking about Brazilians..?
Second of all this is more of a reiteration of some of the rules and general good principles that TL already has. This in BW would not be tolerated in some cases but SC2 is a new game with many issues that still require attention. That is why there is lots of this "e-racism" floating about on forums though imo it has died considerably since the release of the Beta. There will always be racism to an extent because people will always have opinions of other races in Starcraft and real life in general. It will eventually die down to simple race bias opinions like Protoss was in BW, considered the noob race by some as you could get easy D+ with it.
And I've played HoN while I quit SC2 for a while and it wasn't so bad, never encountered any BM players like I did in Starcraft but the money thing ruined the game like all others.
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On September 23 2011 02:32 mordk wrote:
In general, people from the US are the worst all round. They treat brazilians like crap, and firmly believe anyone who speaks spanish is brazilian, and treat them like crap as well.
I don't care if the player is good or bad, the way US folk treat other gamers is just... wrong sometimes. It really makes me wonder why some people idolize them so much, they're usually truly horrible to play with. Good thing I can play SC2 with my friends and don't have to listen to the trolls.
Note: This is about the whole brazilian thing. I really don't understand how it got derailed though.
Brazilians speak portugese not Spanish
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Honestly, whenever I play HoN, it is VERY rare to have a Brazilian on my team that is actually a player that wants to work together and doesn't rage. A lot of the Brazilian players that I have experienced are nothing but stat whores, baiters, and get pissed off whenever you do something wrong. When I say pissed off, I really mean it.
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Starcraft 2 != eSports.
It sounds a lot like you want to grow Starcraft 2, more than anything to do with eSports. You talk about civility in discussion, and avoiding making snide remarks that may reflect badly on the community, and alienate outsiders, but then end your post with a cheap shot at HoN.
I'm not saying I disagree with the bulk of your post, but if you, and others, really want to grow eSports as whole, then we all need to stop taking shots at other games. eSports is a collection of games, all from different genres, Starcraft 2 does not encompass all of eSports. Whenever there's posts about stuff like, "Lol, AoS games have such terrible communities, and take no skill", "FPS are just point and click", "Fighting games are just button-mashing", then we further the rift between SC2, and even RTS as a whole, with other genres of games which make up "eSports".
If we really want to foster an understanding for eSports, and grow it as a whole, then before cutting out whine about races and the game itself, we need to stop the hate between genres. I don't think a gamer is going to come to the community and be put off because people are arguing about races, which has equivalents in all genres, but are more likely to be put off because the community is constantly putting down other games from which they might have come, which alienates them from the community.
For a prime example of this, just look at the perceived animosity between even the SC2 and BW forums on TL. New-comers to BW from SC2 are sometimes alienated by perceived "elitism", and and old BW players looking at SC2 are put off by the hate generated from this alienation.
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Funny how a thread about "e-racism" turned into a thread about actual racism...
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On September 23 2011 02:53 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:32 mordk wrote:
In general, people from the US are the worst all round. They treat brazilians like crap, and firmly believe anyone who speaks spanish is brazilian, and treat them like crap as well.
I don't care if the player is good or bad, the way US folk treat other gamers is just... wrong sometimes. It really makes me wonder why some people idolize them so much, they're usually truly horrible to play with. Good thing I can play SC2 with my friends and don't have to listen to the trolls.
Note: This is about the whole brazilian thing. I really don't understand how it got derailed though. Brazilians speak portugese not Spanish
That's part of the point he is trying to reach.
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On September 23 2011 02:53 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:32 mordk wrote:
In general, people from the US are the worst all round. They treat brazilians like crap, and firmly believe anyone who speaks spanish is brazilian, and treat them like crap as well.
I don't care if the player is good or bad, the way US folk treat other gamers is just... wrong sometimes. It really makes me wonder why some people idolize them so much, they're usually truly horrible to play with. Good thing I can play SC2 with my friends and don't have to listen to the trolls.
Note: This is about the whole brazilian thing. I really don't understand how it got derailed though. Brazilians speak portugese not Spanish
That is part of his point.
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On September 23 2011 02:42 Kevan wrote:OP, use your enter key a little bit more, I hate reading walls of text.
yeah was kind of hard -.-
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On September 23 2011 02:56 2Loose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:42 Kevan wrote:OP, use your enter key a little bit more, I hate reading walls of text. yeah was kind of hard -.-
yeah indeed but i m glad i read it either way
nice read gj
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Even though I absolutely love E-sports, I don't take it that seriously so I find E-racism really fun. It's just fun to me to say "blah blah X and X are a bullshit OP unit", even though it that isn't my opinion.
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The worst I've ever played with are Turks, I wonder how they measure up against Brazilians.
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On September 23 2011 02:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Starcraft 2 != eSports.
It sounds a lot like you want to grow Starcraft 2, more than anything to do with eSports. You talk about civility in discussion, and avoiding making snide remarks that may reflect badly on the community, and alienate outsiders, but then end your post with a cheap shot at HoN.
I'm not saying I disagree with the bulk of your post, but if you, and others, really want to grow eSports as whole, then we all need to stop taking shots at other games. eSports is a collection of games, all from different genres, Starcraft 2 does not encompass all of eSports. Whenever there's posts about stuff like, "Lol, AoS games have such terrible communities, and take no skill", "FPS are just point and click", "Fighting games are just button-mashing", then we further the rift between SC2, and even RTS as a whole, with other genres of games which make up "eSports".
If we really want to foster an understanding for eSports, and grow it as a whole, then before cutting out whine about races and the game itself, we need to stop the hate between genres. I don't think a gamer is going to come to the community and be put off because people are arguing about races, which has equivalents in all genres, but are more likely to be put off because the community is constantly putting down other games from which they might have come, which alienates them from the community.
For a prime example of this, just look at the perceived animosity between even the SC2 and BW forums on TL. New-comers to BW from SC2 are sometimes alienated by perceived "elitism", and and old BW players looking at SC2 are put off by the hate generated from this alienation.
I agree with what you said about eSports. In order for it to grow, we need to support other eSports titles as well, but it depends on the game. Each eSport game has a different set of skills than other games obviously. People can praise and support SC BW and SC2 all they want, but at the end of the day, games like Counter-Strike, Quake, SF4, etc requires a lot of skill at a high level too.
FPS games are more than just running around and getting kills. Counter-Strike is all about teamwork, angles, and preparation. Having good aim is very important, but you can't have a team full of fraggers because you guys will fail. This is the same for all team based games except in games like DotA or HoN, a player can carry the team, which is why some heroes as known as a carry. I also hate the stereotype that all fighting games is about button mashing, which is ridiculous. Yeah, you maybe a button masher in order to get a lucky combo and damage input, but try doing that against a good player and see what happens. The people that talk down on fighting games are the ones that bitch at Capcom for coming out with different version of SF4 and end up playing for a couple of days or weeks and stop playing because they just don't want to practice.
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I am kind of new to this community and I agree with the OP.
Sometimes i feel like ppl have to defend playing X instead of talking about balance in normal constructive way.
Also, i dont get the HoN pun oO
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On September 23 2011 03:00 Klaas wrote:
The worst I've ever played with are Turks, I wonder how they measure up against Brazilians.
They don't. 5 times World Cup champs. Sorry.
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Seriously, @ every1 that ever makes a thread.
Use ur enter key a few times while typing.
It makes it readable.
edit:
wow I just read it, this thread can only go one way
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Its really sad how alot of you guys took a thread that was about racial balance bias flavoring alot of posts (Terran op / infestors are BS / deathball takes no skill) and made it about racism vs real people and being elitist about what games are the best esports. What the heck? Did you guys even read the OP?
One thing I like about balance whine with the racial bias we see on these forums is that it really helps to clue you in on the mind sets and weaknesses of the races. It also gives me a good laugh at times.
Personally, I would be very enbarassed if I whined cloudy about racial balance and then reread my post at a later date so I really hope it never happens.
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Plz split it up i think my eyes are bleeding
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Nice OP, I wanted to say that I think this problem is made worse than it could have been because of the way the ladder is setup. There are too many people with little to no experience playing other races because they have already earned something on one race and don't want to lose their status.
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On September 23 2011 02:56 TheDougler wrote:
Funny how a thread about "e-racism" turned into a thread about actual racism...
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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Belgium8305 Posts
as usual, guys: keep it on topic or warnings/bans/murder etc
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On September 23 2011 03:03 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Starcraft 2 != eSports.
It sounds a lot like you want to grow Starcraft 2, more than anything to do with eSports. You talk about civility in discussion, and avoiding making snide remarks that may reflect badly on the community, and alienate outsiders, but then end your post with a cheap shot at HoN.
I'm not saying I disagree with the bulk of your post, but if you, and others, really want to grow eSports as whole, then we all need to stop taking shots at other games. eSports is a collection of games, all from different genres, Starcraft 2 does not encompass all of eSports. Whenever there's posts about stuff like, "Lol, AoS games have such terrible communities, and take no skill", "FPS are just point and click", "Fighting games are just button-mashing", then we further the rift between SC2, and even RTS as a whole, with other genres of games which make up "eSports".
If we really want to foster an understanding for eSports, and grow it as a whole, then before cutting out whine about races and the game itself, we need to stop the hate between genres. I don't think a gamer is going to come to the community and be put off because people are arguing about races, which has equivalents in all genres, but are more likely to be put off because the community is constantly putting down other games from which they might have come, which alienates them from the community.
For a prime example of this, just look at the perceived animosity between even the SC2 and BW forums on TL. New-comers to BW from SC2 are sometimes alienated by perceived "elitism", and and old BW players looking at SC2 are put off by the hate generated from this alienation. I agree with what you said about eSports. In order for it to grow, we need to support other eSports titles as well, but it depends on the game. Each eSport game has a different set of skills than other games obviously. People can praise and support SC BW and SC2 all they want, but at the end of the day, games like Counter-Strike, Quake, SF4, etc requires a lot of skill at a high level too. FPS games are more than just running around and getting kills. Counter-Strike is all about teamwork, angles, and preparation. Having good aim is very important, but you can't have a team full of fraggers because you guys will fail. This is the same for all team based games except in games like DotA or HoN, a player can carry the team, which is why some heroes as known as a carry. I also hate the stereotype that all fighting games is about button mashing, which is ridiculous. Yeah, you maybe a button masher in order to get a lucky combo and damage input, but try doing that against a good player and see what happens. The people that talk down on fighting games are the ones that bitch at Capcom for coming out with different version of SF4 and end up playing for a couple of days or weeks and stop playing because they just don't want to practice.
Mhmm, I know this. I'm not sure if you were addressing me or not, but
"Lol, AoS games have such terrible communities, and take no skill", "FPS are just point and click", "Fighting games are just button-mashing"
Was me mimicking responses I often see in the forums.
Of course some games are better eSports than others, but that doesn't mean we need to tear apart other games because they aren't as suited to being eSports. It's possible to say something positive about one thing, without saying something negative about another, which is part of my point.
On September 23 2011 03:10 vaderseven wrote:
Its really sad how alot of you guys took a thread that was about racial balance bias flavoring alot of posts (Terran op / infestors are BS / deathball takes no skill) and made it about racism vs real people and being elitist about what games are the best esports. What the heck? Did you guys even read the OP?
One thing I like about balance whine with the racial bias we see on these forums is that it really helps to clue you in on the mind sets and weaknesses of the races. It also gives me a good laugh at times.
Personally, I would be very enbarassed if I whined cloudy about racial balance and then reread my post at a later date so I really hope it never happens.
The OP was talking about eSports, which is more than just SC2. If he wants to only talk about SC2, then he shouldn't talk about eSports as a whole. He talks about fostering understanding between people, and being an open and pleasant community, to grow eSports, but then ends his post with a shot at HoN. His post is somewhat contradictory, so I pointed it out, as it may be something many people don't realize they do.
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On September 23 2011 02:32 mordk wrote:
In general, people from Chile are the worst all round. They treat americans like crap, and firmly believe anyone who speaks english is american, and treat them like crap as well.
I don't care if the player is good or bad, the way Chilean folk treat other gamers is just... wrong sometimes. It really makes me wonder why some people idolize them so much, they're usually truly horrible to play with. Good thing I can play SC2 with my friends and don't have to listen to the trolls.
Note: This is about the whole american thing. I really don't understand how it got derailed though.
Opinions
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The topic title is pretty clear. Esports racism between zerg protoss and Terran.
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On September 23 2011 02:59 Aegeis wrote:
Even though I absolutely love E-sports, I don't take it that seriously so I find E-racism really fun. It's just fun to me to say "blah blah X and X are a bullshit OP unit", even though it that isn't my opinion.
The problem is that some people take it really fucking seriously. During the period when toss was incredibly dominant PvZ, it wasn't uncommon for LR threads to have a few dozen pages worth of posts wishing that the player would die, and it still happens.
I love the game as much as anyone else here, but that is just stupid.
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What's wrong with Brazilians? The only issue I have is their internet sucks to the extreme, and whenever a Brazilian player on Xbox is hosting a game, it's unplayable. Literally unplayable. I guess that would be the fault of the server for choosing a poor host.
I think the SC racism is in part due to WoW influence. Long before SC2 came out, I noticed people who played Horde or Alliance hated each other. It was a bit comical, until I realized it was usually more serious than not. The problem was that it was two fictional groups.
In SC2 at least, I see it more as someone not liking another race because of stupid, gimmicky or powerful things, than it has to do with someone just playing another race. However, it is sometimes aroused by that "OH he's that other faction so I don't like him" mentality I've seen a bit in WoW, but I think this thing is not as profound as the former.
it wasn't uncommon for LR threads to have a few dozen pages worth of posts wishing that the player would die
Are you serious? That's whacky. Why is such extremism more often than not coming from Zerg players? I blame Idra's and Destiny's influence.
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Reagrading Brazillians (epic derail there buddy)+ Show Spoiler +I lol when I play against Russians or Polacks on EU (I can't read that!!!)
I'm fluent in Spanish and know some French, so Portuguese isn't the hardest language to figure out, and is one of those languages where it's easier to read than hear. Still, if you started talking to me in Portuguese, I'll try talking back in Spanish.
In regards to OP, I am friends with players of all races. I especially like practicing with Protoss because it's the one race I can't entirely predict, strangely enough. My scouting and timings are just so horrible in that match up I end up losing games I should have won. I also get upset when I leave myself too susceptible to cheese, like Cannons on maps where Protoss will obviously FFE but Cannon you when you 15 H.
tl;dr I generally say stuff like "Terran OP" or "Protoss is lame" in a joking manner. If I see someone else say something along those lines in a non-joking manner, I assume they are either frustrated with a match up or a complete jackass.
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Friction is what makes the community work, just like sex.
If we were all holding hands together, what would there be to discuss ? We are human, we want to laugh or despair and the SC2 race is one of quite important distinctions in this community. You instantly know you have something in common or what to fight for.
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I seriously busted a gut reading through the entire first page because we have gotten sooo off topic, it's ridiculous.
Anyway, I get that as a community we should stop trying to take away from others' victories by claiming their race is OP or whatever but there comes a time when people stop proclaiming imbalance because of temporary rage and start because there is seriously something wrong with the match up balance.
I was listening to SotG 50 when they were talking about their BW histories and Tyler brought up the Bisu v SaviOr series where Bisu's DT/Corsair style brought about a new protoss metagame shift and the ZvP win percentage went from, I think 56% to 44%? I don't remember the numbers exactly but hearing that something as little as 4-6% off from 50/50 was game-changing was mind-boggling to me because we are currently suffering a sub-30% win rate for protoss in Korea. Back on to directly addressing your issue, I do agree that crying OP isn't the way our community should react when a race other than ours starts winning but things are seriously off-kilter if a race is losing 70% of their matches on a top professional level. At that point, people can't help but complain, even if its alienating other people because it truly gets frustrating as a player and even as a spectator.
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On September 23 2011 03:46 Stanlot wrote:
I seriously busted a gut reading through the entire first page because we have gotten sooo off topic, it's ridiculous.
Anyway, I get that as a community we should stop trying to take away from others' victories by claiming their race is OP or whatever but there comes a time when people stop proclaiming imbalance because of temporary rage and start because there is seriously something wrong with the match up balance.
I was listening to SotG 50 when they were talking about their BW histories and Tyler brought up the Bisu v SaviOr series where Bisu's DT/Corsair style brought about a new protoss metagame shift and the ZvP win percentage went from, I think 56% to 44%? I don't remember the numbers exactly but hearing that something as little as 4-6% off from 50/50 was game-changing was mind-boggling to me because we are currently suffering a sub-30% win rate for protoss in Korea. Back on to directly addressing your issue, I do agree that crying OP isn't the way our community should react when a race other than ours starts winning but things are seriously off-kilter if a race is losing 70% of their matches on a top professional level. At that point, people can't help but complain, even if its alienating other people because it truly gets frustrating as a player and even as a spectator.
I wonder where you get your numbers from, link? Just curious, no bad feelings about it.
And this actually doesnt has anything to do with the topic.
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This is very true and we should remain vigilant.
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HUEUHEHUEHUEHUEHUE I REPORT YOU
Really though people like rooting for people they feel they can identify with. Many people identify with what idra says about other races so they root for zerg manically. Same with other races and whatnot. It is what it is.
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On September 23 2011 03:50 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:46 Stanlot wrote:
I seriously busted a gut reading through the entire first page because we have gotten sooo off topic, it's ridiculous.
Anyway, I get that as a community we should stop trying to take away from others' victories by claiming their race is OP or whatever but there comes a time when people stop proclaiming imbalance because of temporary rage and start because there is seriously something wrong with the match up balance.
I was listening to SotG 50 when they were talking about their BW histories and Tyler brought up the Bisu v SaviOr series where Bisu's DT/Corsair style brought about a new protoss metagame shift and the ZvP win percentage went from, I think 56% to 44%? I don't remember the numbers exactly but hearing that something as little as 4-6% off from 50/50 was game-changing was mind-boggling to me because we are currently suffering a sub-30% win rate for protoss in Korea. Back on to directly addressing your issue, I do agree that crying OP isn't the way our community should react when a race other than ours starts winning but things are seriously off-kilter if a race is losing 70% of their matches on a top professional level. At that point, people can't help but complain, even if its alienating other people because it truly gets frustrating as a player and even as a spectator. I wonder where you get your numbers from, link? Just curious, no bad feelings about it. And this actually doesnt has anything to do with the topic.
Doesn't it? I assumed the overarching reason for this post is because of the anti-terran sentiments most protoss players are expressing at the moment. Not saying that this post is solely motivated by the PvT match up but that many players across all races blame their losses on the fact that their opponent played a race that they believe to be overpowered. It's just that the PvT match up is the current top reason for the race bashing.
As for the figures I posted, they were Day[9]'s words verbatim. Tyler said it was closer to 40% PvZ at first but Day[9] stated specific numbers and no one cared to correct him so I assumed he was at least close.
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On September 23 2011 02:26 k10forgotten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:15 Mordiford wrote:On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game. Also, Brazilians... What about them?
Rofl should of left the brazilians out of it.
Could of escaped some derailing there ^^;;
On topic though, I don't take "e-racism" like that very seriously, and I don't think most people do. It's either banter or just silly balance whining.
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I'm not trying to be mean, but isn't this just stating the obvious..?
Though now that I think about it it's kind of sad that is actually an issue on TL, rather than a nuisance.
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tldr
protoss plays stop whining xD
jkdontbanplz
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It's funny how predictable human behavior is. Put people into different groups, and they will automatically start to discriminate against the other groups. How you choose those groups initially is almost irrelevant. You see it in sports, you see it with race, you see it with nationality.
I always find it funny to see the parallels between real life racism and racism in SC2. Without even thinking, people construct stereotypes about the other groups based on a small number of selectively sampled events. However, their own group is resistant to the same stereotyping. Here's a pearl I noted down from the forums a while ago:
QED, whiners are generally Zergs, with maybe the occasional Protoss that may face a very unorthodox Terran. The Zerg community also has a long and decorated history of whining, unfortunately.
Of course, it doesn't go for everybody. It is possibly to override these basic instincts just as it is possible to override other primitive behaviors, but weaker minds don't seem to be capable of it.
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On September 23 2011 02:42 Kevan wrote:OP, use your enter key a little bit more, I hate reading walls of text.
Paragraphs are enjoyable.
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The stigmas and argumentation of and about the races is an integral part of the game community.
The arguments add dimension to the game. Without these intriguing characteristics, the e-sports community would be much less interesting to follow.
There are definitely pros and cons of each race, but the fiery argument and discussion in the community is truly necessary to allow for an insightful evaluation and creativity.
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On September 23 2011 04:03 marttorn wrote:
On topic though, I don't take "e-racism" like that very seriously, and I don't think most people do. It's either banter or just silly balance whining.
It's more than just "silly" when it screws up forum/community experience for everybody, everywhere. You can't go through two threads in a row without seeing some sarcastic, snide or passive-aggressive remark (usually factually incorrect as well) about this or that race or this or that player playing that race.
Too much is too much, more bans are required.
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I think the best plan is just to ignore it. Issues never disappear if you keep giving them attention. That's the greatest lesson the internet has to teach.
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If i would get a dollar each time i was being called "retard" "shit" "scrub" or they wished for me to get aids or others , i would have been millioner since months ago
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On September 23 2011 04:30 branflakes14 wrote:
I think the best plan is just to ignore it. Issues never disappear if you keep giving them attention. That's the greatest lesson the internet has to teach.
It's more like "issues never disappear, period".
I still think more bans will make it better. Just ban more people and for longer. As in JangBi storm bans.
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On September 23 2011 04:29 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:03 marttorn wrote:
On topic though, I don't take "e-racism" like that very seriously, and I don't think most people do. It's either banter or just silly balance whining. It's more than just "silly" when it screws up forum/community experience for everybody, everywhere. You can't go through two threads in a row without seeing some sarcastic, snide or passive-aggressive remark (usually factually incorrect as well) about this or that race or this or that player playing that race. Too much is too much, more bans are required.
Don't know if people will actually heed the signs.
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there really should be much more constructive thoughts instead of whine after whine after whine whenever someone sees something they don't like. Its quite sad that this community has become this whine fest 
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God damn Brazilians, first you ruin my language and now my reputation in the gaming community!
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my friends use a lot of racial epitaphs in general and in acknowledging me and i don't think thats racism (more like reclaimed words). I've been a victim of actual racism as a kid though soo i think rude words are kind of meaningless
that said why would saying an imaginary race is unbalanced is racism :S thats like making light of actual racism
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I hate whatever race I'm not playing with every fiber of my being, it was the same in wow, playing horde, hate the alliance, they're all whiny little kids. Play alliance, hate the horde, they're all a bunch of gankers.
Its fun to throw yourself into role-playing, and probably healthy to direct perfectly natural aggression into something where no one actually gets hurt, so yes, I am an e-racist.
I think it is beyond silly to take it to the point that many do where you blame losses solely on a race being op, maybe I'm wrong but I find it hard to believe that very many games are won solely due to a balance issue.
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In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil.
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Wait, what?
I'm killing eSports when I make a joke about my friend playing Protoss? What?
If it's "unprofessional" for me to make Terran/Protoss/Zerg aimed jokes, I don't care. I'm not a professional. I'm a fan. Packers fans make *a lot* worse jokes about Vikings fans, and I'm pretty sure the NFL is still going strong.
You know what IS unprofessional? Everytime the community gets a whiff of even a slight change in the Drama Winds they attack. There can be 100 pages about some random tweet before anyone actually knows any more than a random guy's ideas on the issue. Just look at any thread with even an ounce of community drama and count the number of pitchforks before we hear the other half of the issue. Then, when it comes to light, we all back away and pat ourselves on the back because we're a great community.
I'm going to keep making my Protoss jokes. I'm 100% certain a new fan isn't going to leave because I teased them over picking Zerg. And if he did, then he would've left the minute he hit a guy who called him a "motherfucking fag cheeser" on Battle.net anyway.
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On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil.
Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world. 
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On September 23 2011 04:37 Megatronn wrote:
God damn Brazilians, first you ruin my language and now my reputation in the gaming community!
Hahahahaha, better then ruin your country.
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Russians always cheese me on ladder...
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On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world.
Just curious, why is it not great?
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On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world.
You don't want to grow esports? Major "sports" are way bigger than chess, and rivalries, hating on opponents you don't like, complaining about (officiating, race balance, lame strategies, injuries) is a huge part of fan enjoyment.
I occasionally hear about how Zerg players are always whiny while Terran players are always "good mannered". And lately I've been hearing how more and more protoss are becoming more whiny.
Anyone want to guess why that is? Think now.
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On September 23 2011 04:47 Morphling_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world. You don't want to grow esports? Major "sports" are way bigger than chess, and rivalries, hating on opponents you don't like, complaining about (officiating, race balance, lame strategies, injuries) is a huge part of fan enjoyment. I occasionally hear about how Zerg players are always whiny while Terran players are always "good mannered". And lately I've been hearing how more and more protoss are becoming more whiny. Anyone want to guess why that is? Think now.
lol, just because we want SC2 to become more popular doesn't mean we want it to go to shit.
"For the sake of E-Sports" and the like is becoming a term I'm starting to despise.
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thats what make it so fun
-share the frustrations with people from the same race
-cheer for players from the same race
but i know that a lot of people just cry about OP and shit
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The loyalty people feel to their particular races in StarCraft reminds me a lot of loyalty people have to sports teams in soccer/baseball whatever.
You could argue the competitiveness between races adds a spice to the pro scene in the same way team rivalries do in sports. People seem to show a lot more support for players of their 'race' in StarCraft then players from a team they like or from the same nation as them.
I guess the balance whine gets tiresome especially at lower levels but I"m not sure you can have one without the other.
And I'm not sure it damages the credibility of the StarCraft community, when its more of a common human trait that emerges in any sort of competitive activity and there are far worse examples of it. Ever been to a soccer game between two rival teams? Now thats what you call BM...
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On September 23 2011 04:47 Morphling_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:43 Talin wrote:On September 23 2011 04:42 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
In non-esports there are teams you love and teams you hate. Think about how many people love/hate the Yankees, yet don't even really care that much about baseball in general. I think having a favorite race and hating the other 2 is great for esports.
Oh yeah I think I'm supposed to mention Brazil. Being similar to sports is not great for Starcraft at all. Being similar to chess, maybe. Starcraft fans should definitely be more like chess fans and less like basketball fans in my perfect world. You don't want to grow esports? Major "sports" are way bigger than chess, and rivalries, hating on opponents you don't like, complaining about (officiating, race balance, lame strategies, injuries) is a huge part of fan enjoyment.
I don't feel a need for SC2 to be bigger than chess at all - chess is perfectly big enough, has a large following, and has relatively no related bullshit. Tennis is fine too, you can't really argue it's not big enough. Oriental martial arts as well. All these sports have a LOT more in common with Starcraft than any of the most popular physical sports do.
The "fan enjoyment" you're talking about is really not something that Starcraft can build on in the long run. Such fans are more likely to just follow an aggressive physical sport over Starcraft anyway, it's just the nature of the game.
To be blunt - the profile of an average basketball fan and profile of an average Starcraft fan are worlds apart. Basketball can grow and profit from the kind of sports culture you're talking about, Starcraft can't.
That said, I won't really care about the growth of Starcraft if in the process it turns into something that I can no longer identify with or enjoy.
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If a larger percentage of people in one race whine, it means that race is likely disadvantaged. If a larger percentage of people think a certain race is easy to play, that means that race is probably easy to play.
If today I triple the cost of a worker of one race, 100% of that race's players would flood the forums, while the other races would have nothing to complain about. In reality it's not so drastic, but is this a difficult concept?
Why try to say everything is equal and every player's success is based 100% on their talent when it's not true? I really hate presumptuous posts like this.
Also, please don't compare SC2 to chess and basketball. In chess and basketball everyone is bound by the same rules and abilities and "units" of control. Everything else is based on that person's talent (born smarter / born taller / more experienced). It would be a valid comparison if in Basketball, one team wore flip flops and had 8 players and were forbidden to do layups, while the other team wore high heels and had 12 and could take 4 steps without dribbling. Because SC2 has such diverse mechanics across races (which is what makes it a great game), the same quality makes balance immeasurable, leaving only the subjective sentiments of the gamer to determine what is fair and what is not. And right now, it is far from fair.
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While I agree that just because you play a certain race doesn't mean you don't know how to micro or macro and such,
The difference between your E-Racism and racism in the world is that the races in starcraft and distinctly different and are made to be different. It isn't correct to say that black men is stronger than asian men, nor is it true as a broad statement, but is it true to say that a zealot is stronger 1 on one than a zergling, in that in a 1 on 1 fight a zealot will kill a zergling. Race for humans is a social construct meaning that it is something defined and created by society, Races in starcraft were designed and created to be different by blizzard.
I think also that as a community it is actually a good thing to have a race and to be attached to that race. I think one aught to think of races much more like teams in baseball where it isn't wrong to root for your team and debatably not wrong to hate on the other team (or the yankees ).
I think it is foolish though to attempt to see all of the races as being equal, and as it is a game with constant fluctuations in both metagame (strategy/all-in of the week) as well as patch changes, I don't think it is wise to assume that the races truly are equal in the different categories of play.
I am not saying here that we should stop playing and just complain about them, because the great thing about starcraft is attempting to abuse what your race has and what other races lack, but I do think it is okay to know the races are different and should be so.
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On September 23 2011 02:28 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:15 Mordiford wrote:On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players In my experience that hatred comes from being unable to communicate with people who don't speak the same language. Communication is integral to that game. Also, Brazilians... Please leave your bigotry out of these forums.
Not sure if you're being oversensitive or you misunderstood my post entirely. I was making a lighthearted comment about the perception of Brazilians in the Dota genre, I was not in any way disparaging Brazilians. Anyone who has played a Dota-like game should have some experience with the stigma attached with Brazilians. Regardless, all of this is off-topic, but the actual original post was a massive wall of text with a pot-shot at another game's community at the end.
My intention was not to massively derail the thread.
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On September 23 2011 05:03 FMJ wrote:
If a larger percentage of people in one race whine, it means that race is likely disadvantaged. If a larger percentage of people think a certain race is easy to play, that means that race is probably easy to play.
If today I triple the cost of a worker of one race, 100% of that race's players would flood the forums, while the other races would have nothing to complain about. In reality it's not so drastic, but is this a difficult concept?
Why try to say everything is equal and every player's success is based 100% on their talent when it's not true? I really hate presumptuous posts like this.
Also, please don't compare SC2 to chess and basketball. In chess and basketball everyone is bound by the same rules and abilities and "units" of control. Everything else is based on that person's talent (born smarter / born taller / more experienced). Because SC2 has such diverse mechanics (which is what makes it a great game), the same quality makes balance immeasurable, leaving only the subjective sentiments of the gamer to determine what is fair and what is not. And right now, it is far from fair.
A couple months ago, a lot of zerg players were crying "imbalance! imbalance!" in the PvZ matchup. Then professional players changed how they played and now protoss are crying "imbalance! imbalance!"
Popular opinion can't be readily accepted as fact since most people really fucking dumb and have a very narrow perception from their one race.
Also, nobody is comparing SC2 to chess or basketball, we're comparing communities surrounding these competitions.
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It's simply human nature for people to group themselves together in an "us vs. them" mentality. You aren't ever going to change human nature no matter how hard you try. And the "herd instinct" is perhaps one of the strongest desires possible, following things like food and sex.
I'm a random player so I laugh at people whining from every side. I win with race X and when they whine and say the race is OP, I challenge them with race Y and still win. The game certainly used to be very imbalanced, but the recent patches I think have actually been doing a very good job of bringing things into line.
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On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
A couple months ago, a lot of zerg players were crying "imbalance! imbalance!" in the PvZ matchup. Then professional players changed how they played and now protoss are crying "imbalance! imbalance!"
How does this refute the argument that the races clearly aren't equal? How does this support the argument that all races are balanced and equally difficult to play?
+ Show Spoiler +It doesn't. On both counts.
Also, the pros changed how they played after a massive infestor buff, making the metagame shift a result of game balance change, NOT professional player ingenuity.
On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
Popular opinion can't be readily accepted as fact since most people really fucking dumb and have a very narrow perception from their one race.
I agree that popular opinion can't be accepted as objective truth, but what about the popular opinion from the pro players? What other indicator do you have? The whims of Dustin Bowder? Blizzard's "balance" system, the mmr, which forces a 50% win ratio on all players, then says "all players are at 50% win, the game is balanced"? If a smart student and a dumb student who is given a cheat sheet always tie each other on exams, are they of equal intelligence?
Also, even if 98% of players in each race were really dumb, how come the 98% of dumb people in race A are content to remain silent, while the 98% of dumb people in race B waste time and effort complaining?
Finally, game design is 100% of SC2. Not 99.99%, but 100%. I could replace all the units with craptacular 2D sprites, people would still play the game. I could mute the sound, people will play the game. But if I broke game balance, nobody would play the game. This is why it's a huge deal, this is why it's difficult to design around, and this is why people will never stop complaining about it. Essentially, if you don't have an opinion on balance, you don't really care for the game.
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The way I see it, there are two different types of this.
The first type is a statement such as "oh you were behind. fortunately for you tanks kill everything -_-"
The second type is a statement like "your race is overpowered and you only win because you play it, and I only lose because the race I play is the weakest" which is what turns any unmoderated discussion into world of warcraft barrens chat.
The people that have that attitude need to learn how to deal with losing. In a similar fashion, any aggression that they are not prepared for becomes cheese or all in whether it was or not, all the while top koreans like DRG and Nada are saying players outside of korea don't take enough risks.
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people should just stop thinking they're smarter or better cuz they play X race
even that so-said super mannered guy ePGimix called me bad when I beat him and he said protoss didn't require any skill... lol
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different
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On September 23 2011 05:22 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
A couple months ago, a lot of zerg players were crying "imbalance! imbalance!" in the PvZ matchup. Then professional players changed how they played and now protoss are crying "imbalance! imbalance!"
How does this refute the argument that the races clearly aren't equal? How does this support the argument that all races are balanced and equally difficult to play? + Show Spoiler +It doesn't. On both counts. Also, the pros changed how they played after a massive infestor buff, making the metagame shift a result of game balance change, NOT professional player ingenuity. Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:13 Gamegene wrote:
Popular opinion can't be readily accepted as fact since most people really fucking dumb and have a very narrow perception from their one race.
I agree that popular opinion can't be accepted as objective truth, but what about the popular opinion from the pro players? What other indicator do you have? The whims of Dustin Bowder? Blizzard's "balance" system, the mmr, which forces a 50% win ratio on all players, then says "all players are at 50% win, the game is balanced"? If a smart student and a dumb student who is given a cheat sheet always tie each other on exams, are they of equal intelligence? Also, even if 98% of players in each race were really dumb, how come the 98% of dumb people in race A are content to remain silent, while the 98% of dumb people in race B waste time and effort complaining?
Players need to figure out how to win. That's how the game becomes balanced. If we see that a race is having a hard time, you can't just say "meh the game is imbalanced! nothing we can do until blizzard patches it!" You have wait on the pro players to come up with solutions. I think the tools are all here, all the blatant and egregious imbalanced removed (5 rax reaper lol). Complaining yields no results.
SaviOr era: People said PvZ was an impossible matchup, that it was completely imbalanced. Zerg will auto win against protoss! There's no hope at all! Then Bisu came into the fray and blew everyone's minds with sairs and DT's and proved that the tools were there, but no one bothered to use them yet.
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There are only two types of people that I hate in the world: Those that are intolerant of other people's race, and the Terran.
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tbh one of the things that kept me interested in Star 2 in the beginning is exactly what OP is describing, I dunno what it is but people whining about balance always gives me a good laugh..it is getting kind of old though i have to admit.
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On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different
How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal.
Sure, you can take a look at an elementary class of kids and say, "they're all different, but special in their own way." And that cliche has merits to it. But face the facts - some were endowed, either naturally or through environment, to just be more successful than others, and it's naive to just say "oh yeah, everyone is equal".
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okay, ive read through this and im not sure if i understand what everyone is talking about. is the OP talking about hating brazillians(the majority of the thread >.>) or saying something like, "zerg was nerfed prematurely because protoss players are too fucking stupid to come up with new builds?" is e-racism and should be talked about? if thats what youre getting at, its hopeless. its as simple as horde-vs-alliance. nuff said about e-racism, its always gonna be around bro.
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On September 23 2011 05:38 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal.
i dont think you understood this post you quoted. he didnt say that one was harder then the other specifically, he just said they were different.
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On September 23 2011 05:39 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:38 FMJ wrote:On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal. i dont think you understood this post you quoted. he didnt say that one was harder then the other specifically, he just said they were different.
I don't think you understood my post actually... read it again a few more times and see if it makes sense.
Actually, let me explain what I said.
He said, they are different, but "equally difficult".
I said, I argue, since there is no test of difficulty, that you cannot claim they are "equally difficult". However, by that same logic, I concede that I cannot claim that they are "differently difficult" (even though that is what I am "implying").
However, I continue, given probability, they are much more likely to be "differently difficult", which is opposite of what he said, which was that they are "equally difficult".
In summation, he says they are "different, but equal", and I say they are "different, and unequal".
Does that make sense?
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On September 23 2011 05:42 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:39 Soulriser wrote:On September 23 2011 05:38 FMJ wrote:On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal. i dont think you understood this post you quoted. he didnt say that one was harder then the other specifically, he just said they were different. I don't think you understood my post actually... read it again a few more times and see if it makes sense. Actually, let me explain what I said. He said, they are different, but "equally difficult". I said, I argue, since there is no test of difficulty, that you cannot claim they are "equally difficult". However, I concede that I cannot claim that they are "differently difficult" (even though that is what I am "implying"). However, I continue, given probability, they are much more likely to be "differently difficult", which is opposite of what he said, which was that they are "equally difficult". In summation, he says they are "different, but equal", and I say they are "different, and unequal". Does that make sense?
that makes more sense then your original post, yes. and i agree mah bad.
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Russian Federation899 Posts
On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players
according to broodwar this should wear out with time.
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I've taken up fencing in recent yeas. Fencing as a sport is divided into 3 weapons, and generally an individual competitor will only practice one of them. There is a fun rivalry between the three and people will joke about the skills absent from one or required to a greater degree in another. We will even joke about the type of personalities drawn to one or the other. After all that, there is no realy enmity. No one truly gets angry at you based on what weapon you practice or if you choose to switch to another.
The point is, some sense of rivalry is nice for strengthening the community. Having race specific help me threads is fun and gives people a sense of belonging to a specific subgroup. It's nice to know other people are having difficulties in a match up just as you are.
The problem, as with everything, comes when people take it too far. They get too bitter over perceived imbalances or silly racial divides. In short, some people just need to tone it down a bit.
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On September 23 2011 05:54 razy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players according to broodwar this should wear out with time.
actually my hate for protoss grew over the years of bw lol
in sc2 i pretty much dont think about what race u are.
i do however think its abit interesting what race someone plays because it does reflect slightly on playstyle and how you think as a player. but thats maybe just something that grows as they play that race more for example how protosses and terrans think of how to be absolutely as gay as possible. joke ofcourse ^^.. maybe. but then again when im terran all i think about is how greedy and disgusting zerg players are, i cant just sit there while they drone up thinking they are playing safe. no sir aint having any of that
On September 23 2011 06:01 phyren wrote:
I've taken up fencing in recent yeas. Fencing as a sport is divided into 3 weapons, and generally an individual competitor will only practice one of them. There is a fun rivalry between the three and people will joke about the skills absent from one or required to a greater degree in another. We will even joke about the type of personalities drawn to one or the other. After all that, there is no realy enmity. No one truly gets angry at you based on what weapon you practice or if you choose to switch to another.
The point is, some sense of rivalry is nice for strengthening the community. Having race specific help me threads is fun and gives people a sense of belonging to a specific subgroup. It's nice to know other people are having difficulties in a match up just as you are.
The problem, as with everything, comes when people take it too far. They get too bitter over perceived imbalances or silly racial divides. In short, some people just need to tone it down a bit.
you make absolute sense i agree with it all
not that it matters but are you a zerg user?
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That reminds me of iRacing. Italians don't have a good reputation there. ^^
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Canada11340 Posts
On September 23 2011 05:54 razy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:11 redemption289 wrote:Over the past year, SC2 has become a major part of my life. Both the community and the competitive aspects, such as laddering and small tournaments, have made my life more enjoyable. That said, there are aspects of SC2 that I could live without. The most prominent among these being the over-reaction and hypersensitivity that is always present during threads discussing race balance issues. The E-racism that the title alludes to is thankfully not real life racism. It is the belittling and blatant ad hominems that accompany nearly every patch/balance/strategy post. Let me be the first to admit that I have posted my fair share of inflammatory comments. For those, I apologize. This post is as much a reminder for me as for everyone else. That TL and other sites can build a successful community, ripe with jokes, pro-match posts, and memes, is great. It really speaks to the evolution of and market for e-sports. However, race selection is a sensitive issue. It is frustrating to have one's skill as an SC2 player slighted simply because they play Protoss, or Terran, or Zerg. The knee-jerk reaction of self-defense and confrontation is understandable, but we should train ourselves to put aside these biases (as best we can) when discussing balance or strategies. It is doubtful that people pick their races because of the inherent bias. Most often, people choose a race and stick with that race because it is what they've learned. It has nothing to do with wanting to "cheat" by winning all of their games in easy-mode. This is something that all of us need to keep in mind. Congratulations to those of you who have managed to stay civil in your posts. You're a better woman/man than I. Simply put, it is a hard thing to do. However, as a developing community, we should be careful to promote and maintain good sportsmanship. This means stifling ad hominem attacks, carefully phrasing our posts so as to legitimately not offend --it is one thing to say no offense and a completely different thing to mean it--, and most importantly learn to be critical of our own race's strengths and weaknesses. Truth be told, every race has some unit that is overpowered and other units that are underpowered. Countless posts and people have whined about an underpowered unit while simultaneously attacking others who post well-warranted and articulate opinions about the units that are overpowered. Certainly there should be a forum for arguing and discussing balance issues, but it ought to be done in a much more civil manner. Let's not sugar coat things, the people who have posted such malicious posts should be ashamed. Often, good people create these posts in a moment of weakness, but that does not excuse the act of ostracizing another member of the community. Why is this important? As an E-sports community, we should be quick to welcome and attract new members, not cast-out people with evolving views of balance. We should also take care to represent ourselves as mature human beings rather than petty young adults or children. If we expect E-sports to grow, then we should all be willing to do our part to make it as accessible and professional as possible. Snide comments about an individual or a race that people choose to play ultimately damages the credibility of the community as a whole. Additionally, such insults only breed more animosity. SC2 is unique because it can foster camaraderie between people and nations around the world. There are other video games that have abhorrent communities surrounding them. Let’s make a conscious effort to keep the SC2 community as welcoming and open as possible. After all, none of us want to end up like HoN players according to broodwar this should wear out with time.
I don't know, when I first was lurking on TL, the standard joke was 1a2a3a Protoss which I always found a little irritating as what attracted me Protoss was the micro intensive units like high templar, Dark Archons, and reaver's vs tank set-up and destroy all. (D- to D+, Protoss might be easier, but pre-D-, fortified tanks are like the ultimate weapon that newbs have to figure out how to defeat.)
Point is, there is still some lingering race bias in BW- I mean, just think of BW Artosis and Idra for the Terran...
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IMO Brazillians are pretty cool =)
I actually think that this race bias (e-racism? wth) is good for the game. Right now im cheering for every single protoss, just like I would cheer for a team (maybe thats why they are doing so poorly, all my team are in such a bad moment right now... Red Sox almost giving up the wild card race, Peyton Manning lost for the season, and my soccer team almost falling to something like Code-A).
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On September 23 2011 05:38 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal. Sure, you can take a look at an elementary class of kids and say, "they're all different, but special in their own way." And that cliche has merits to it. But face the facts - some were endowed, either naturally or through environment, to just be more successful than others, and it's naive to just say "oh yeah, everyone is equal".
Not only has noone done this, but it is also impossible to quantify these difficulty traits in order to say one is easier or harder.
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Hahahaha, this thread got funny pretty fast.
I play LoL from time to time and I am 99% sure that the "Brazilians" are just Trolls.
OP should make his post easier to read though, but the overall message is something I can agree with. Too bad people think that acting like manchildren somehow makes them funny or badass.
Also, Huehuehuehuehue BR?
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On September 23 2011 02:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Starcraft 2 != eSports.
It sounds a lot like you want to grow Starcraft 2, more than anything to do with eSports. You talk about civility in discussion, and avoiding making snide remarks that may reflect badly on the community, and alienate outsiders, but then end your post with a cheap shot at HoN.
I'm not saying I disagree with the bulk of your post, but if you, and others, really want to grow eSports as whole, then we all need to stop taking shots at other games. eSports is a collection of games, all from different genres, Starcraft 2 does not encompass all of eSports. Whenever there's posts about stuff like, "Lol, AoS games have such terrible communities, and take no skill", "FPS are just point and click", "Fighting games are just button-mashing", then we further the rift between SC2, and even RTS as a whole, with other genres of games which make up "eSports".
If we really want to foster an understanding for eSports, and grow it as a whole, then before cutting out whine about races and the game itself, we need to stop the hate between genres. I don't think a gamer is going to come to the community and be put off because people are arguing about races, which has equivalents in all genres, but are more likely to be put off because the community is constantly putting down other games from which they might have come, which alienates them from the community.
For a prime example of this, just look at the perceived animosity between even the SC2 and BW forums on TL. New-comers to BW from SC2 are sometimes alienated by perceived "elitism", and and old BW players looking at SC2 are put off by the hate generated from this alienation.
Fair, sorry. I didn't mean for the comment to actually be malicious. I had hoped that the smiley face at the end would indicate that. I play HoN... was just trying to lighten the mood.
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On September 23 2011 05:38 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal. Sure, you can take a look at an elementary class of kids and say, "they're all different, but special in their own way." And that cliche has merits to it. But face the facts - some were endowed, either naturally or through environment, to just be more successful than others, and it's naive to just say "oh yeah, everyone is equal".
Every race has its own set of difficulties. In general, I think that MMR takes care of a lot of these balance issues unless you're near the top tier of players. If one race is indeed easier, then that will be compensated by the fact that they are (eventually) matched against better players than them (who happen to play "harder" races). This means that if you are losing your games, it's probably not due to a race imbalance. The only time this is untrue is when one race figures out a near unstoppable way to exploit a weakness, resulting in a massive amount of wins, but Blizzard can't see the future. Additionally, everyone wants to win. A lot of people don't start their SC2 career by choosing a race simply because it's OP. When I started playing, I certainly had no idea about the inherent balance issues of my race. I just knew that I loved my race's mechanics.
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I like the starcraft racism, it makes everything more fun. I can easily cheer for Losira, Coca, Nestea, DRG without even knowing them, just because they are zergs and it's a fact that I will watch them and love them! Idra is an excepction though, sorry Idra, I don't like BM at all, specially when I disagree about your positions (protoss aren't OP, you just sux against protoss o.o).
However, we can tell some players aren't kidding, they are actually "e-racists" that believes that zergs are QQ because the zerg gene in us make us QQs!!!!! Or something like that, I have no idea what they think, but other than these annoying guys that QQ about random steriotypes, I really think that some e-racism is health for the "sport".
It's like any sport actually, even MMA (mixed martial arts), some people cheer for a name (like Anderson Silva), some people cheer for a nationatily (like brazilians), some people just love the blood, others love the man to man action; anyway, but the rivalry is part of what it is making MMA grow and I think that SC2 having 3 races and the e-racism is also helping the "e-sport". At least I don't think that MMA would be as fun with only brazilians, I would support Anderson Silva as hard if he was only massacring other brazilians, it makes more fun when he knockouts japaneses, americans and people around the world in general.
I am happy I can cheer for a whole race here in SC2 and have fun with this rivalry, people just have to learn the limits to it.
Also, I want to claridy that in real life racism is stupid, also I want to clarify that "brazilian" isn't a race, but xenophobia is also stupid, so... yeah, we are all human race and if you think you are superior because you are whatever colour or your granpa was awesome, I am sorry, you are just as cool as your achievements, not your politicians or ancestors, really >.>
Terrans, enjoy your nerfs \o/ Protoss, I am sorry your 1-2 base all-ins aren't winning at least 50% of your games anymore ;_;
See? It is fun, as long people know how to not only type/talk in a e-racist way, silliness has its places and times, no need to ban/taboo it though, however do ban/taboo the IRL racism! Thanks
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On September 23 2011 07:59 redemption289 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Starcraft 2 != eSports.
It sounds a lot like you want to grow Starcraft 2, more than anything to do with eSports. You talk about civility in discussion, and avoiding making snide remarks that may reflect badly on the community, and alienate outsiders, but then end your post with a cheap shot at HoN.
I'm not saying I disagree with the bulk of your post, but if you, and others, really want to grow eSports as whole, then we all need to stop taking shots at other games. eSports is a collection of games, all from different genres, Starcraft 2 does not encompass all of eSports. Whenever there's posts about stuff like, "Lol, AoS games have such terrible communities, and take no skill", "FPS are just point and click", "Fighting games are just button-mashing", then we further the rift between SC2, and even RTS as a whole, with other genres of games which make up "eSports".
If we really want to foster an understanding for eSports, and grow it as a whole, then before cutting out whine about races and the game itself, we need to stop the hate between genres. I don't think a gamer is going to come to the community and be put off because people are arguing about races, which has equivalents in all genres, but are more likely to be put off because the community is constantly putting down other games from which they might have come, which alienates them from the community.
For a prime example of this, just look at the perceived animosity between even the SC2 and BW forums on TL. New-comers to BW from SC2 are sometimes alienated by perceived "elitism", and and old BW players looking at SC2 are put off by the hate generated from this alienation. Fair, sorry. I didn't mean for the comment to actually be malicious. I had hoped that the smiley face at the end would indicate that. I play HoN... was just trying to lighten the mood.
Sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I just wanted to use you as a starting point to the whole community. What you said isn't that bad, with the smiley, but it's that kind of attitude that would turn off people from our game. Imagine if during IEM, a LoL player turned on a SC2 stream of the tournament, found his way to TL, and then clicked on the LR thread. *Shudders*
It's stuff like that that we need to stop, or at least be aware of, as it just makes people defensive and turns people off from the community.
No hard feelings though. <3
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I was thinking about what BS this is the other day... I play protoss and I find mainly zergs shittalking "loltoss" "newbrace" "it take a retard to play toss" (all these examples from last night).
I mean, do people really feel good about themselves for playing a particular race over another? Protip: You're not that special, there's only 3 to choose from. Sometimes I wonder if these 'e-racists' just love mirror match so much they wished everyone played their race (but then what can they blame for losing? T.T)
+ Show Spoiler +I think a lot of the hate for Brazilians comes from WC3 DOTA, where people actually hosted the games, and getting a Brazillian host in the US, or playing with someone with 100-200 ms lag/delay, sucked. Not that this is specific to Brazil, just a thought.
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the great wall of text
User was warned for this post
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I think you should stop being so racist against paragraphs.
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On September 23 2011 06:59 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:38 FMJ wrote:On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal. Sure, you can take a look at an elementary class of kids and say, "they're all different, but special in their own way." And that cliche has merits to it. But face the facts - some were endowed, either naturally or through environment, to just be more successful than others, and it's naive to just say "oh yeah, everyone is equal". Not only has noone done this, but it is also impossible to quantify these difficulty traits in order to say one is easier or harder.
chrono boost; mules/scan; creep spread/larva inject
you don't need to be a genius to realize which one is the "hardest" and most time consuming...
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I mean it's kinda hard not to be e-racist when you constantly fight each other for ladder points.
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it isn't really racism anyway. if you hate fish or birds you are not racist. hating some kind of strange alien isn't racism. not even if they're humanoid- you're not racist if you hate gorillas and they're a humanoid race. and you aren't really hating on the race itself anyway, you hate the player who plays the race, the race in the game is just a tool in the hands of a player you don't even see. so calling this whole phenomenon racism is not correct in the first place. i've seen this idiocy in wow and warcraft too, it's just a misconception. people are allowed to hate on pixels, stop using this term it's not correct at all.
and btw if you hate a nationality that's not racism either.
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On September 24 2011 00:01 zanmat0 wrote:
I think you should stop being so racist against paragraphs.
how can you be racist against paragraphs???
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On September 24 2011 00:05 KimJongChill wrote:
I mean it's kinda hard not to be e-racist when you constantly fight each other for ladder points.
well, it's just human nature to be competitive and hates anything that is in their way, i don't think there's anything wrong with it if people just keep it to themselves
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If there is one thing history has taught me, it's that no one ever learns the lesson of history. People who are noobs at life will hate. It's a force of nature. It's how the evil overlords pawned us all by creating countries. Why would it be any different in starcraft?
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
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On September 24 2011 00:03 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 06:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On September 23 2011 05:38 FMJ wrote:On September 23 2011 05:33 ReignFayth wrote:
all 3 races have different mechanic, one is not harder than another, just different How can you make this statement? Nobody has ever done an extensive, fair case-study of quantitative difficulty of each race. As such, I can't say that X race is more difficult than Y race; and you can't say that they are equally difficult. However, I can say that given 3 *very distinct* mechanics, they are *hugely* more likely to have variance in difficulty (even if only slightly) than to be exactly equal. Sure, you can take a look at an elementary class of kids and say, "they're all different, but special in their own way." And that cliche has merits to it. But face the facts - some were endowed, either naturally or through environment, to just be more successful than others, and it's naive to just say "oh yeah, everyone is equal". Not only has noone done this, but it is also impossible to quantify these difficulty traits in order to say one is easier or harder. chrono boost; mules/scan; creep spread/larva inject you don't need to be a genius to realize which one is the "hardest" and most time consuming...
Oh man, you don't know how tired my hands get when I have to call down all those mules.
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On September 23 2011 02:54 zoLo wrote:
Honestly, whenever I play HoN, it is VERY rare to have a Brazilian on my team that is actually a player that wants to work together and doesn't rage. A lot of the Brazilian players that I have experienced are nothing but stat whores, baiters, and get pissed off whenever you do something wrong. When I say pissed off, I really mean it.
QFT
Noone in the US learns how to speak Portuguese (French/Spanish are the 2 main foreign languages taught here) so when you put Americans and Brazilians on a team together in HON it is just asking for disaster. HON is a game that requires alot of coordination and teamwork so BR+US = bad haha.
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It's not racism if I hate a species. I'm just a misanthrope. That has a strangely better connotation than racist.
Whatever, yeah there's not much you can say. You pick a race, learn it and feel really good about learning it. Then another race comes by and shits on your confidence. You get mad and type a bunch of nonsense and filth. Then you play another game and forget about it. I've said some mean things about Terran before but I almost always keep bm out of the game.
Oh, and this 100%
For a prime example of this, just look at the perceived animosity between even the SC2 and BW forums on TL. New-comers to BW from SC2 are sometimes alienated by perceived "elitism", and and old BW players looking at SC2 are put off by the hate generated from this alienation.
That shit is out of hand. I watch bw with a few friends or people but I have no interest in asking stupid questions and learning what I missed in the intervening years since brood wars release through forums. I don't blame people for being on edge because of trolls but some people are so damn full of themselves that I'd rather watch proleague or vods by myself
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I was thinking about this the other day. I was watching the White-ra stream and the chat in there was horrendous. Calling the White-ra's opponent a jerk straight away just because he was a Zerg. Then there was a mass debate regarding EU vs US differences in difficulty. However, after much thought I concluded it's what comes with sport. It's a clan culture, us against them. Red vs blue. EU v US, Korean vs foreigners, Protoss vs Zerg etc.
It's healthy to a degree, because you have something to root for, a passion for something. Even if you don't know the players or people playing. You know the races, their nationality, and you instantly root for them to win, and defend them. Anything stopping them in their way, instant hatred. It's crazy the amount of heckling and racism in other sports, so it's part of what human nature is and our competitive tribal warfare instants.
There is time for civilty, but there's time for war!
When a football game starts I'll be chanting and shouting a refs decisions. It's what I do. Starcraft 2 can just be the same. Ok there is no ref to blame, even if he is right, so instead we blame imbalance!
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EPT
