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On September 20 2011 13:28 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:23 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:20 SuitGuy wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms. You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart. I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR. teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Contract law is far more complicated than you are making it out to be. I'm sure it is; I have only done 1 law subject as an elective during my course. However I'm not sure how that changes what I said. You can't just get out of contracts because you feel like it... Since you are such an expert on the topic maybe you could provide more than one sentence to prove your point? Where does he say that he's an expert, all he did was state the obvious in saying that its more complicated, which is what I'm sure we were all thinking,
Of course it is more complicated, but it sounded like he was insinuating that what I said was wrong, as opposed to just stating 'contract law is more complicated'...and if he believed what I said was wrong then I assumed he actually knew what was right, hence being an 'expert' so to speak. So I was just wondering where he was going with this.
But if all he was doing is stating that contract law is more complicated than my 3 paragraph post, then I would agree...
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On September 20 2011 13:20 SuitGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms. You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart. I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR. teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Contract law is far more complicated than you are making it out to be.
Which is why people plan ahead by making their contracts very, very hard to get out of. Especially when those people are lead by a lawyer.
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Just went over my law notes (engineering student here that took a mandatory Engineering Law class).
Please note that all of this is for Engineering, and is in Canada.
Contracts in Canada are defined as private legal relationships; only the 2 parties can sue or be sued under the laws of the contract.
Elements of Enforceable Contract are the set of promise that the law will enforce; five main principles.
1. intention to create a legal relationship
2. offer and acceptance
3. consideration (exchange of consideration)
- what is being exchanged (something of value)
- “quid pro quo” – give something for something else (exchange value)
4. both parties have relevant capacity (know what they're getting into)
5. contract is legal
Even though it is stated that it was a written contract, verbal contract are just as enforceable as written contract. The only problem is that it is difficult to determine what was said. Lastly, in Canada there is a the State of Frauds which state what contract must be written down for it to be enforceable. Anyways, this is a moot point as the contract was written down and signed.
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On September 20 2011 13:36 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. Should be put into op also. Based on all the players FXO have (i mean from around the world) i would say Boss have a pretty good knowledge about all the problems about contracts.
Based on all the players Col have from around the world , I would have to say that Jason Lake and Jason Bell also have a pretty good idea about how contracts are worked and the problems with them.
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On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats.
Yeah, nothing like being incapable of stepping off a plane in the US without being dragged off in cuffs.
Anyhow, I'm sure there have been many, many international contract lawsuits, in which one person has been paid monetary damages.
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On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats.
Well then wouldn't he not be able to participate in IPL since it's held in the US and the moment he comes to play they will subpoena him? Not sure how it works but just wondering?
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On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. ... I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different... teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.)
It is pretty pretty straight forward. He is a top level grandmaster Zerg of Europe not some dumb hick from the south. He knew what he was getting into. Regardless if it was legal or not, it was just morally wrong to go against your word.
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On September 20 2011 13:43 Bandino wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. Well then wouldn't he not be able to participate in IPL since it's held in the US and the moment he comes to play they will subpoena him? Not sure how it works but just wondering?
So does that mean Stephano can't participate in IPL,NASL, MLG's, and future Blizzcons?
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I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word.
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I hope Stephano still ends up participating in Orlando, would be a big let down if he didn't, but I highly doubt he will be able to. I don't really see Complexity having a chance of retaking Stephano even with a lawsuit, especially since it's international, as others have pointed out Stephano really can't get into legal trouble unless he comes to the US. The most they could probably do is to prevent Stephano from participating in MLG by not letting him come to US without facing legal issues. Hopefully they won't do that. I feel bad for Stephano though, this generates bad rep for him even though he's a great player who is probably just trying to stay loyal to his initial team that trained him.
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On September 20 2011 13:36 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. Should be put into op also. Based on all the players FXO have (i mean from around the world) i would say Boss have a pretty good knowledge about all the problems about contracts.
The only problem is its not actually totally true... (juridically)
On September 20 2011 13:38 wunsun wrote:
Just went over my law notes (engineering student here that took a mandatory Engineering Law class).
Please note that all of this is for Engineering, and is in Canada.
Contracts in Canada are defined as private legal relationships; only the 2 parties can sue or be sued under the laws of the contract.
Elements of Enforceable Contract are the set of promise that the law will enforce; five main principles.
1. intention to create a legal relationship
2. offer and acceptance
3. consideration (exchange of consideration)
- what is being exchanged (something of value)
- “quid pro quo” – give something for something else (exchange value)
4. both parties have relevant capacity (know what they're getting into)
5. contract is legal
Even though it is stated that it was a written contract, verbal contract are just as enforceable as written contract. The only problem is that it is difficult to determine what was said. Lastly, in Canada there is a the State of Frauds which state what contract must be written down for it to be enforceable. Anyways, this is a moot point as the contract was written down and signed.
Even though this is all true, its only applicable to common law jurisdiction (as far as canadian contractual common law is concerned, its very much like the US contract law), the issue at hand is the conformity with french civil law, and the applicability of said contract signed in the US in France. This last subject being governed by internation law.
Dont think anyone doubts the legality of the contract in the US.
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Yeah people will surely forget in a week. It's not like people are still bringing up the Puma thing which was far less of a big deal than this was. Personally I hope that people don't forget for a long time, if for no other reason than to be a reminder to other players so they don't do something like this later.
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Mill president sounds wacky.
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On September 20 2011 13:49 Cathasaigh wrote:
Yeah people will surely forget in a week. It's not like people are still bringing up the Puma thing which was far less of a big deal than this was. Personally I hope that people don't forget for a long time, if for no other reason than to be a reminder to other players so they don't do something like this later.
Puma didn't sign a contract with TSL, so EG picked him up. Stephano signed a contract with coL, but he broke it. How is that the same?
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On September 20 2011 13:46 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:43 Bandino wrote:On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. Well then wouldn't he not be able to participate in IPL since it's held in the US and the moment he comes to play they will subpoena him? Not sure how it works but just wondering? So does that mean Stephano can't participate in IPL,NASL, MLG's, and future Blizzcons?
It means coL would have a loaded gun aimed at Stephano's head. If they choose to use it, it's up to them. But it's completely possible he could end up in court, and possibly fined for extreme amounts or imprisoned (very rarely does that happen with regards to contract laws) if this all works out for coL.
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On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. ... I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different... teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.)
As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them.
But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages.
Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe.
As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*.
*excluding gay loopholes in French law
Edit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future.
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On September 20 2011 13:51 anrimayu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:49 Cathasaigh wrote:
Yeah people will surely forget in a week. It's not like people are still bringing up the Puma thing which was far less of a big deal than this was. Personally I hope that people don't forget for a long time, if for no other reason than to be a reminder to other players so they don't do something like this later. Puma didn't sign a contract with TSL, so EG picked him up. Stephano signed a contract with coL, but he broke it. How is that the same?
I think you misunderstood the tone of his post, he was saying that people are still talking about Puma and like you said what he did was above board. So by doing what Stephano did, people aren't going to stop talking about it for a long ass while.
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On September 20 2011 13:52 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:46 zaii wrote:On September 20 2011 13:43 Bandino wrote:On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. Well then wouldn't he not be able to participate in IPL since it's held in the US and the moment he comes to play they will subpoena him? Not sure how it works but just wondering? So does that mean Stephano can't participate in IPL,NASL, MLG's, and future Blizzcons? It means coL would have a loaded gun aimed at Stephano's head. If they choose to use it, it's up to them. But it's completely possible he could end up in court, and possibly fined for extreme amounts or imprisoned (very rarely does that happen with regards to contract laws) if this all works out for coL.
Damn sucks for Stephano, it's a shame he went back on his word even after signing the contract =/.
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On September 20 2011 13:36 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:33 wunsun wrote:
Hockey players in the NHL are drafted between the ages of 18 to 20.
Football players in the NFL are minimum required to complete three college seasons or a time frame of three years after high school graduation; this produces an age of approximately 21.
Baseball players in the MLB are drafted at a minimum age of 16 years old.
Basketball players in the NBA are drafted at a minimum age of 19 years old.
When they are drafted, they negotiate with the team that drafted them, and then once the terms are agreeable, they sign the contract. Then it is basically ironclad. You must obey the terms that were set, that you have read and have agreed to.
While their is structure (agents, managers, history) that provides support for those athlete, the intent is similar what Stephano did, which was to negotiate a contract, read it over, agree to it, and sign it.
He should be transferred to coL, or a fine of some sort must be placed on Stephano or on mil, for the contract has been broken by that party. The difference is those examples are established leagues where there are established rules covering everything, a CBA, collective bargaining agreement. There is no such agreement in SC2 as there is no overall governing body.
Another big difference is anyone drafted by a major sports organization is going to have an actual agent who actually understands legal terms in documents and contracts and can negotiate terms that best suit the player. Professional players in e-sports have to negotiate themselves and if they are unfamiliar with the terms and language of these contracts they can very well get themselves into situations they did not actually want.
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On September 20 2011 02:44 Jtom wrote:
Complexity are "seriously consider(ing) legal action in this matter"
yes, take legal action. This pisses me off and I really don't even care about coL as an organization but it's shit like this that really angers me. Anytime there is a breach in contract it just gives esports a bad name and shit like this needs to stop. I lost all respect for stephano after a move like this.
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EPT
