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On September 20 2011 13:55 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:36 Slider954 wrote:On September 20 2011 13:33 wunsun wrote:
Hockey players in the NHL are drafted between the ages of 18 to 20.
Football players in the NFL are minimum required to complete three college seasons or a time frame of three years after high school graduation; this produces an age of approximately 21.
Baseball players in the MLB are drafted at a minimum age of 16 years old.
Basketball players in the NBA are drafted at a minimum age of 19 years old.
When they are drafted, they negotiate with the team that drafted them, and then once the terms are agreeable, they sign the contract. Then it is basically ironclad. You must obey the terms that were set, that you have read and have agreed to.
While their is structure (agents, managers, history) that provides support for those athlete, the intent is similar what Stephano did, which was to negotiate a contract, read it over, agree to it, and sign it.
He should be transferred to coL, or a fine of some sort must be placed on Stephano or on mil, for the contract has been broken by that party. The difference is those examples are established leagues where there are established rules covering everything, a CBA, collective bargaining agreement. There is no such agreement in SC2 as there is no overall governing body. Another big difference is anyone drafted by a major sports organization is going to have an actual agent who actually understands legal terms in documents and contracts and can negotiate terms that best suit the player. Professional players in e-sports have to negotiate themselves and if they are unfamiliar with the terms and language of these contracts they can very well get themselves into situations they did not actually want.
Those sports were used to give an example. I don't think the CBA is the more important factor in those examples. I think its the fact that there is an actual structure as I mentioned earlier (i.e. manager) or have previous examples to follow.
However, maybe a more relevant example will stand. High school athletes sign a letter of intent to for a athletic scholarship for a specific school with no agent/manager. However, if they change their intent, I believe the NCAA takes one year of eligibility from the athlete. Anyways, the point is that they sign a contract, they must obey it.
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On September 20 2011 14:09 Trickstaloki wrote:
I'm sorry but where do you get the impression that sc2 pro players have 100k salaries? That seems highly unrealistic, but I could be wrong if you could provide some evidence to the contrary...
Even though they didn't announce it, people are fairly certain that HuK is getting between 100k and 200k from EG. Not sure how they found out but people have a way of knowing things. Since Complexity said Stephano would be one of the highest paid players in esports, 100k sounds reasonable.
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On September 20 2011 14:08 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:58 emc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:44 Jtom wrote:
Complexity are "seriously consider(ing) legal action in this matter" yes, take legal action. This pisses me off and I really don't even care about coL as an organization but it's shit like this that really angers me. Anytime there is a breach in contract it just gives esports a bad name and shit like this needs to stop. I lost all respect for stephano after a move like this. So you are for potentially ruining a young person's life because he made a very small, very insignificant decision that may be completely legal in the country he lives in, all in the name of e-sports? This type of thinking just doesn't make sense to me.
1) its not going to ruin his life, it will only cost him some money he will likely earn whilst playing on whatever team he ends up joining.
2) Its not an insignificant decision, you are signing a contract essentially for employment. To let him get away and screw over Complexity completely undermines the idea of Contract Law and the idea that contracts are BINDING. If you don't want to do it, DON'T SIGN. Its simple, if you do and breach, you're liable. It sets a bad precedent for esports because in any other legitimate sport, industry, etc the people who breach a contract are held liable. Just because the players play a game doesn't mean the contracts and business behind it are.
It seems all too often players are shrugging off the contracts they signed like they don't exist. I say take him to court, Complexity would be 100% in the right.
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On September 20 2011 14:11 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:48 TurpinOS wrote:On September 20 2011 13:36 Frankon wrote:On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. Should be put into op also. Based on all the players FXO have (i mean from around the world) i would say Boss have a pretty good knowledge about all the problems about contracts. The only problem is its not actually totally true... (juridically) On September 20 2011 13:38 wunsun wrote:
Just went over my law notes (engineering student here that took a mandatory Engineering Law class).
Please note that all of this is for Engineering, and is in Canada.
Contracts in Canada are defined as private legal relationships; only the 2 parties can sue or be sued under the laws of the contract.
Elements of Enforceable Contract are the set of promise that the law will enforce; five main principles.
1. intention to create a legal relationship
2. offer and acceptance
3. consideration (exchange of consideration)
- what is being exchanged (something of value)
- “quid pro quo” – give something for something else (exchange value)
4. both parties have relevant capacity (know what they're getting into)
5. contract is legal
Even though it is stated that it was a written contract, verbal contract are just as enforceable as written contract. The only problem is that it is difficult to determine what was said. Lastly, in Canada there is a the State of Frauds which state what contract must be written down for it to be enforceable. Anyways, this is a moot point as the contract was written down and signed. Even though this is all true, its only applicable to common law jurisdiction (as far as canadian contractual common law is concerned, its very much like the US contract law), the issue at hand is the conformity with french civil law, and the applicability of said contract signed in the US in France. This last subject being governed by internation law. Dont think anyone doubts the legality of the contract in the US. Whilst I appreciate your study and knowledge. There are reasons why global companies set up entities in every jursidiction where they have staff/contractors/outsourced employees. The reason I have stated prior. Every single contract has to be individually tailored to the local contract law. In order to do this properly you need a local entity. Some may raise the example of things like, lets say, cristiano ronaldo transfering between Man U and Real Madrid. The reason that Real Madrid do not require a local entity is because the player is being imported. So will eventually be compliant with local law/standards. From my knowledge coL are not importing stephano, but he would be employed contractually in France for a foreign organisation which does not hold any office or business registration in France. He then is only subject to US jursidiction, which does include Canada, as mentioned by yourself. However, it does not include France. Another thing to think about is that of all the legal mix ups involved, it actually contains two of the most annoying contract law jurisdictions in the world. The united states and france. France is a terrible place to get involved in contract law, unless local of course as the laws sometimes make no sense and are a bit rough around the edges.
T.T
Groan. Why must law be so complicated...
I don't believe that either company can put too much resources into a lawsuit. However, I feel that this must be resolved as this probably will set a precedent in the esports community.
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On September 20 2011 14:10 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 14:08 setzer wrote:On September 20 2011 13:58 emc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:44 Jtom wrote:
Complexity are "seriously consider(ing) legal action in this matter" yes, take legal action. This pisses me off and I really don't even care about coL as an organization but it's shit like this that really angers me. Anytime there is a breach in contract it just gives esports a bad name and shit like this needs to stop. I lost all respect for stephano after a move like this. So you are for potentially ruining a young person's life because he made a very small, very insignificant decision that may be completely legal in the country he lives in, all in the name of e-sports? This type of thinking just doesn't make sense to me. Ruining someones life ? Breach of contract would litteraly nearly not do much, its more to set an example then the actual consequences.
That is an assumption. Worst case scenario is coL sue (and win) damages far exceeding what Stephano could pay. Personally I'm more concerned over Stephano's reputation than anything financial if Complexity does end up winning a legal battle.
So, if a legal action potentially ruins a young man's life, you shouldn't take a legal action?
And how is that insignificant decision? If what Complexity is saying is true, he signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT.
I am sure its better to take a legal action and send a message to E-Sports scene that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable.
It isn't so black and white. Stephano could have been led to believe the contract he was signing was under French law. WE DON"T KNOW. I'm going to need proof that Complexity has actually been seriously damaged from Stephano not signing. The way I see it, Complexity is just a little butthurt Stephano changed his mind. Right or wrong, it does appear Stephano is reserved that right under the laws of his home country. For Complexity to take legal action over this just seems really petty, but of course this is just my opinion.
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On September 20 2011 14:11 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:48 TurpinOS wrote:On September 20 2011 13:36 Frankon wrote:On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. Should be put into op also. Based on all the players FXO have (i mean from around the world) i would say Boss have a pretty good knowledge about all the problems about contracts. The only problem is its not actually totally true... (juridically) On September 20 2011 13:38 wunsun wrote:
Just went over my law notes (engineering student here that took a mandatory Engineering Law class).
Please note that all of this is for Engineering, and is in Canada.
Contracts in Canada are defined as private legal relationships; only the 2 parties can sue or be sued under the laws of the contract.
Elements of Enforceable Contract are the set of promise that the law will enforce; five main principles.
1. intention to create a legal relationship
2. offer and acceptance
3. consideration (exchange of consideration)
- what is being exchanged (something of value)
- “quid pro quo” – give something for something else (exchange value)
4. both parties have relevant capacity (know what they're getting into)
5. contract is legal
Even though it is stated that it was a written contract, verbal contract are just as enforceable as written contract. The only problem is that it is difficult to determine what was said. Lastly, in Canada there is a the State of Frauds which state what contract must be written down for it to be enforceable. Anyways, this is a moot point as the contract was written down and signed. Even though this is all true, its only applicable to common law jurisdiction (as far as canadian contractual common law is concerned, its very much like the US contract law), the issue at hand is the conformity with french civil law, and the applicability of said contract signed in the US in France. This last subject being governed by internation law. Dont think anyone doubts the legality of the contract in the US. Whilst I appreciate your study and knowledge. There are reasons why global companies set up entities in every jursidiction where they have staff/contractors/outsourced employees. The reason I have stated prior. Every single contract has to be individually tailored to the local contract law. In order to do this properly you need a local entity. Some may raise the example of things like, lets say, cristiano ronaldo transfering between Man U and Real Madrid. The reason that Real Madrid do not require a local entity is because the player is being imported. So will eventually be compliant with local law/standards. From my knowledge coL are not importing stephano, but he would be employed contractually in France for a foreign organisation which does not hold any office or business registration in France. He then is only subject to US jursidiction, which does include Canada, as mentioned by yourself. However, it does not include France. Another thing to think about is that of all the legal mix ups involved, it actually contains two of the most annoying contract law jurisdictions in the world. The united states and france. France is a terrible place to get involved in contract law, unless local of course as the laws sometimes make no sense and are a bit rough around the edges.
While I totally agree with you, I was merely pointing out that to say that ''a us contract would not comply with French contractual law'' is false by itself. Depending on the actual clauses and the formation of the contract, some US contracts can comply with French law. (More frequent then not, contractual law in civil law and common law is not as different as people might think)
Also, under certain circumstances, a French Court could also decide that the actual matter is of US jurisdiction, and thus leave the matter to US Courts and apply the judgement of said US court in France (could happen, but rare). The reason people set up entities in each country is simply because it makes things a lot easier (for the logistic aspect of the thing, but also due to the nature of international law)
Now if this is all worth it for a simple breach of contract is another discussion...
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On September 20 2011 14:18 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 14:10 TurpinOS wrote:On September 20 2011 14:08 setzer wrote:On September 20 2011 13:58 emc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:44 Jtom wrote:
Complexity are "seriously consider(ing) legal action in this matter" yes, take legal action. This pisses me off and I really don't even care about coL as an organization but it's shit like this that really angers me. Anytime there is a breach in contract it just gives esports a bad name and shit like this needs to stop. I lost all respect for stephano after a move like this. So you are for potentially ruining a young person's life because he made a very small, very insignificant decision that may be completely legal in the country he lives in, all in the name of e-sports? This type of thinking just doesn't make sense to me. Ruining someones life ? Breach of contract would litteraly nearly not do much, its more to set an example then the actual consequences. That is an assumption. Worst case scenario is coL sue (and win) damages far exceeding what Stephano could pay. Personally I'm more concerned over Stephano's reputation than anything financial if Complexity does end up winning a legal battle.Show nested quote +So, if a legal action potentially ruins a young man's life, you shouldn't take a legal action?
And how is that insignificant decision? If what Complexity is saying is true, he signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT.
I am sure its better to take a legal action and send a message to E-Sports scene that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable. It isn't so black and white. Stephano could have been led to believe the contract he was signing was under French law. WE DON"T KNOW. I'm going to need proof that Complexity has actually been seriously damaged from Stephano not signing. The way I see it, Complexity is just a little butthurt Stephano changed his mind. Right or wrong, it does appear Stephano is reserved that right under the laws of his home country. For Complexity to take legal action over this just seems really petty, but of course this is just my opinion.
Like I said before, If Col did sue anybody I think they would go after Mil the team and not Stephano individually. As for his reputation being tarnished, I don't think a lawsuit would do that much more damage than has already been done, regardless of the outcome.
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On September 20 2011 14:22 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 14:18 setzer wrote:On September 20 2011 14:10 TurpinOS wrote:On September 20 2011 14:08 setzer wrote:On September 20 2011 13:58 emc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:44 Jtom wrote:
Complexity are "seriously consider(ing) legal action in this matter" yes, take legal action. This pisses me off and I really don't even care about coL as an organization but it's shit like this that really angers me. Anytime there is a breach in contract it just gives esports a bad name and shit like this needs to stop. I lost all respect for stephano after a move like this. So you are for potentially ruining a young person's life because he made a very small, very insignificant decision that may be completely legal in the country he lives in, all in the name of e-sports? This type of thinking just doesn't make sense to me. Ruining someones life ? Breach of contract would litteraly nearly not do much, its more to set an example then the actual consequences. That is an assumption. Worst case scenario is coL sue (and win) damages far exceeding what Stephano could pay. Personally I'm more concerned over Stephano's reputation than anything financial if Complexity does end up winning a legal battle.So, if a legal action potentially ruins a young man's life, you shouldn't take a legal action?
And how is that insignificant decision? If what Complexity is saying is true, he signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT.
I am sure its better to take a legal action and send a message to E-Sports scene that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable. It isn't so black and white. Stephano could have been led to believe the contract he was signing was under French law. WE DON"T KNOW. I'm going to need proof that Complexity has actually been seriously damaged from Stephano not signing. The way I see it, Complexity is just a little butthurt Stephano changed his mind. Right or wrong, it does appear Stephano is reserved that right under the laws of his home country. For Complexity to take legal action over this just seems really petty, but of course this is just my opinion. Like I said before, If Col did sue anybody I think they would go after Mil the team and not Stephano individually. As for his reputation being tarnished, I don't think a lawsuit would do that much more damage than has already been done, regardless of the outcome.
Agreed on the last point. I can't see anyone scrambling to buy the man who will betray them in under 24 hours.
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Good god the Millenium statement is so grandiose and overwritten. Get to the point.
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Millenium statement is more like the kid's french so he's OURS. The thought that you can screw over other organizations just because they are foreign is just stupid. How are you going to help e-sports grow globally without respect and dialogue between both players and organization on a global scale? If there are inconsistencies between what Complexity thought was being agreed to and what Stephano agreed to, they should have been resolved BEFORE Millenium "announced" them re-signing Stephano. Not this, oh you just don't understand how things work over here lololololol so your contract is pointless and meaningless. If so, what organizations are going to wish to support/sign foreign players if they can't be trusted to abide by their own contracts?
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On September 20 2011 14:23 Horse...falcon wrote:
Good god the Millenium statement is so grandiose and overwritten. Get to the point.
It's a PR statement, not an honest forum post.
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I don't get it, does that mean stephano first agreed to join col and then signed a contact but then continued to stay with millenium?
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Too much desinformation in this thread , CoL will win communication battle by language advantage.
But hopefully , legaly , their contract is a fail and even if he works, you can retract in France, whatever you think it's a good or bad law, this is the law.
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On September 20 2011 14:15 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 14:09 Trickstaloki wrote:
I'm sorry but where do you get the impression that sc2 pro players have 100k salaries? That seems highly unrealistic, but I could be wrong if you could provide some evidence to the contrary... Even though they didn't announce it, people are fairly certain that HuK is getting between 100k and 200k from EG. Not sure how they found out but people have a way of knowing things. Since Complexity said Stephano would be one of the highest paid players in esports, 100k sounds reasonable.
Highest salary = 100k, next 3 highest = 5k, 4k, 3k.
A 6k salary would make you one of the highest paid salaries, and actually the second highest. It in no way means you are at 100k.
Huk probably makes around 100k as the rumors were suggesting 6 figures. I doubt stephano was offered anywhere near 100k, It was probably much closer to 60k. (But who knows)
I don't see why these repeated team transfer problems come up. Is everyone involed just retarded? How can situations like this occur, I just don't see it.
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Unless you are lawyer who understands both French and US contract law there's no way you could be sure one side is clearly right or wrong. And I suspect (though can't know for sure) most lawyers would ask to see the contract first before forming an opinion.
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On September 20 2011 14:37 ETisME wrote:
I don't get it, does that mean stephano first agreed to join col and then signed a contact but then continued to stay with millenium?
That's the simplified version of it, plus now Stephano has signed a contract with Millenium which from what I can gather, hadn't been done before.
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On September 20 2011 14:40 hypercube wrote:
Unless you are lawyer who understands both French and US contract law there's no way you could be sure one side is clearly right or wrong. And I suspect (though can't know for sure) most lawyers would ask to see the contract first before forming an opinion.
Actually , this is the first pro gamer contract in France, before, the team in wc3 for example never succeded to made a legal contract.
MoMan, who was the first french sc2 "pro" was just salary on lan house...
Millenium tooks few month to make this contract legally with french lawyer, so I dont think an Amercian contract made in less then 3 weeks can work...
And as I said, anyway , you can retract in France. For example, you can sign for a House for millions dollars, then break the contract 6 days later.
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On September 20 2011 14:39 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 14:15 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:On September 20 2011 14:09 Trickstaloki wrote:
I'm sorry but where do you get the impression that sc2 pro players have 100k salaries? That seems highly unrealistic, but I could be wrong if you could provide some evidence to the contrary... Even though they didn't announce it, people are fairly certain that HuK is getting between 100k and 200k from EG. Not sure how they found out but people have a way of knowing things. Since Complexity said Stephano would be one of the highest paid players in esports, 100k sounds reasonable. Highest salary = 100k, next 3 highest = 5k, 4k, 3k. A 6k salary would make you one of the highest paid salaries, and actually the second highest. It in no way means you are at 100k. Huk probably makes around 100k as the rumors were suggesting 6 figures. I doubt stephano was offered anywhere near 100k, It was probably much closer to 60k. (But who knows) I don't see why these repeated team transfer problems come up. Is everyone involed just retarded? How can situations like this occur, I just don't see it.
I would love to see any kind of proof, I like HuK and love the SC2 community but god..
100k seems totally unrealistic and totally bullshit, I am so tired of reading that HuK makes "between 100 and 200" a year.
It seems like most people have no clue.... Listen to Jason Lake interview regarding player salaries
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On September 20 2011 14:46 sunman1g wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 14:39 Russano wrote:On September 20 2011 14:15 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:On September 20 2011 14:09 Trickstaloki wrote:
I'm sorry but where do you get the impression that sc2 pro players have 100k salaries? That seems highly unrealistic, but I could be wrong if you could provide some evidence to the contrary... Even though they didn't announce it, people are fairly certain that HuK is getting between 100k and 200k from EG. Not sure how they found out but people have a way of knowing things. Since Complexity said Stephano would be one of the highest paid players in esports, 100k sounds reasonable. Highest salary = 100k, next 3 highest = 5k, 4k, 3k. A 6k salary would make you one of the highest paid salaries, and actually the second highest. It in no way means you are at 100k. Huk probably makes around 100k as the rumors were suggesting 6 figures. I doubt stephano was offered anywhere near 100k, It was probably much closer to 60k. (But who knows) I don't see why these repeated team transfer problems come up. Is everyone involed just retarded? How can situations like this occur, I just don't see it. I would love to see any kind of proof, I like HuK and love the SC2 community but god.. 100k seems totally unrealistic and totally bullshit, I am so tired of reading that HuK makes "between 100 and 200" a year. It seems like most people have no clue.... Listen to Jason Lake interview regarding player salaries
Well, for contrast, the top few players in BW have salaries of 200-250k, Flash having 250k
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On September 20 2011 14:56 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 14:46 sunman1g wrote:On September 20 2011 14:39 Russano wrote:On September 20 2011 14:15 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:On September 20 2011 14:09 Trickstaloki wrote:
I'm sorry but where do you get the impression that sc2 pro players have 100k salaries? That seems highly unrealistic, but I could be wrong if you could provide some evidence to the contrary... Even though they didn't announce it, people are fairly certain that HuK is getting between 100k and 200k from EG. Not sure how they found out but people have a way of knowing things. Since Complexity said Stephano would be one of the highest paid players in esports, 100k sounds reasonable. Highest salary = 100k, next 3 highest = 5k, 4k, 3k. A 6k salary would make you one of the highest paid salaries, and actually the second highest. It in no way means you are at 100k. Huk probably makes around 100k as the rumors were suggesting 6 figures. I doubt stephano was offered anywhere near 100k, It was probably much closer to 60k. (But who knows) I don't see why these repeated team transfer problems come up. Is everyone involed just retarded? How can situations like this occur, I just don't see it. I would love to see any kind of proof, I like HuK and love the SC2 community but god.. 100k seems totally unrealistic and totally bullshit, I am so tired of reading that HuK makes "between 100 and 200" a year. It seems like most people have no clue.... Listen to Jason Lake interview regarding player salaries Well, for contrast, the top few players in BW have salaries of 200-250k, Flash having 250k
That's not comparable I think.
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EPT
