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On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross
Dear uninformed citizen of the internet,
It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms.
You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart.
I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR.
teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism.
No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
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On September 20 2011 12:47 Telcontar wrote:Legally? That's up to debate. Will he ever play for them in the future? Somehow, I doubt it very much. Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats. He's attending IPL3 at Atlantic City right? Maybe Complexity can try and get a subpoena in time for that?
They could make IPL's prize pay out to Stephano (or MLG if he goes there) kind of nasty if they choose. That would only take a letter and filing in Texas.
If Stephano wants to compete in any USA-based tournaments, he and Millennium should probably get square with Complexity. They might not go the full hog on the legal, but some very little Legal letter writing can make their lives a lot worse.
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And to everybody attacking Col for suing Stephano, I really think that if Col did pursue legal action, they would go after Mil and not Stephano himself.
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wow! very interesting Mr. Bond. Now we get to see how good the SC2 lawyers are and whether or not they've made their contracts legally binding across borders.
Even if they didn't, it would suck to never see Stephano play on North American soil. (just cuz I assume we (Canada) would uphold the american law.)
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Who cares about legal repercussions, mil players should just be banned from events for X amount of time.
Seems more in line with the issue at hand and would have more effect on e-sports consistency than a long messy legal battle that would just shy people away from contracts at all.
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the big loser here is stephano. lost a lot of respect over this
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If players get banned for hacking.. I'd say getting banned for breach of an e-sport-related contract is on par for the course.
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On September 20 2011 12:28 lizzard_warish wrote:
Has anyone made a post on the legal cases for both parties? Above me is a reference to french common law, is there something I missed? Is there a well known legal loop hole or something?
Because by all legal sanity stephano and millenium are going to lose hard...
France is a civil law system...
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These international laws make contracting really hard. Not quite sure how this is going to work, but I'd like to hear a word from Stephano if anything.
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On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms. You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart. I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR. Show nested quote +teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
Contract law is far more complicated than you are making it out to be.
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Oh shit more e-sports drama?
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On September 20 2011 13:20 SuitGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms. You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart. I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR. teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Contract law is far more complicated than you are making it out to be.
I'm sure it is; I have only done 1 law subject as an elective during my course so of course my knowledge is limited. However I'm not sure how that changes what I said. You can't just get out of contracts because you feel like it...
Since you are such an expert on the topic maybe you could provide more than one sentence to prove your point?
Edit: Unless you are talking about undue influence, which is something Stefano may be able to prove...
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On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms. You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart. I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR. Show nested quote +teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
But the whole point, as I have heard, is that contracts in French jurisdiction are not legally binding per se, and have various exceptions. I'm not sure what was the agreed law of the contract and how private international law will operate here because 1. I'm not sure of the details of the contract and negotiations 2. I'm not familiar with French law 3. I'm not familiar with US law.
So instead of placing our Australia law goggles on and criticising everyone, I think we should respect the parties involved and hold back until more clarity of information is given.
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On September 20 2011 13:23 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:20 SuitGuy wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms. You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart. I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR. teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Contract law is far more complicated than you are making it out to be. I'm sure it is; I have only done 1 law subject as an elective during my course. However I'm not sure how that changes what I said. You can't just get out of contracts because you feel like it... Since you are such an expert on the topic maybe you could provide more than one sentence to prove your point?
Where does he say that he's an expert, all he did was state the obvious in saying that its more complicated, which is what I'm sure we were all thinking,
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On September 20 2011 13:26 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. That is the LAW buddy. The idea for law (especially contract law) is to promote CONSISTENCY. You can't go making exceptions for 'poor little 18 year olds changing their minds'. He is legally an adult, he should know that contracts are legally binding, and if he was gonna enter into a contract he should know the repercussions if he breaks the terms. You can't just pull out the old 'hurr durr boys will be boys' mentality, if he is gonna enter a contract he better be prepared to stand by it. If people can pull out of contracts because they 'change their mind' then nobody is going to have faith in the system of contracts and the whole system will fall apart. I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different but breaking a contract definitely isn't a victimless crime; I doubt this has done any good for coL's PR. teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. But the whole point, as I have heard, is that contracts in French jurisdiction are not legally binding per se, and have various exceptions. I'm not sure what was the agreed law of the contract and how private international law will operate here because 1. I'm not sure of the details of the contract and negotiations 2. I'm not familiar with French law 3. I'm not familiar with US law. So instead of placing our Australia law goggles on and criticising everyone, I think we should respect the parties involved and hold back until more clarity of information is given.
Guess that's why everyone is hating on the French...
Regardless of what France's contract law is, I was arguing in response to his point that '18 year olds are inconsistent and hence shouldn't be accountable to their actions' and (in most countries) that point doesn't stand... However if that is actually what the French law is arguing, then just...lol
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Hockey players in the NHL are drafted between the ages of 18 to 20.
Football players in the NFL are minimum required to complete three college seasons or a time frame of three years after high school graduation; this produces an age of approximately 21.
Baseball players in the MLB are drafted at a minimum age of 16 years old.
Basketball players in the NBA are drafted at a minimum age of 19 years old.
When they are drafted, they negotiate with the team that drafted them, and then once the terms are agreeable, they sign the contract. Then it is basically ironclad. You must obey the terms that were set, that you have read and have agreed to.
While their is structure (agents, managers, history) that provides support for those athlete, the intent is similar what Stephano did, which was to negotiate a contract, read it over, agree to it, and sign it.
He should be transferred to coL, or a fine of some sort must be placed on Stephano or on mil, for the contract has been broken by that party.
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On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. ... I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different... Show nested quote +teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody.
How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly?
A little perspective here, people.
-Cross
(P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.)
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On September 20 2011 12:45 FXOpen wrote:
a US contract would not comply with French contractual law. The only way legal action would work is if stephano entered the united states and was subpoenaed.
Whilst this whole situation sucks... Theres no legal grounds for anything other than threats.
Should be put into op also.
Based on all the players FXO have (i mean from around the world) i would say Boss have a pretty good knowledge about all the problems about contracts.
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On September 20 2011 13:33 wunsun wrote:
Hockey players in the NHL are drafted between the ages of 18 to 20.
Football players in the NFL are minimum required to complete three college seasons or a time frame of three years after high school graduation; this produces an age of approximately 21.
Baseball players in the MLB are drafted at a minimum age of 16 years old.
Basketball players in the NBA are drafted at a minimum age of 19 years old.
When they are drafted, they negotiate with the team that drafted them, and then once the terms are agreeable, they sign the contract. Then it is basically ironclad. You must obey the terms that were set, that you have read and have agreed to.
While their is structure (agents, managers, history) that provides support for those athlete, the intent is similar what Stephano did, which was to negotiate a contract, read it over, agree to it, and sign it.
He should be transferred to coL, or a fine of some sort must be placed on Stephano or on mil, for the contract has been broken by that party.
The difference is those examples are established leagues where there are established rules covering everything, a CBA, collective bargaining agreement. There is no such agreement in SC2 as there is no overall governing body.
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EPT
