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On September 03 2011 09:15 applejuice wrote:
Great
69 pages of discussion, but the fact is, it's actually not hard to stop.
It happened in MLG once (not SC2, obviously). They banned the players for two tournaments (I think?) and the national championships. PROBLEM SOLVED. Nobody is going to try weak shit like that when they can force a massive penalty such as that.
That shit may have flown in the days of smaller tournaments, but if some current pros actually do this (and i highly doubt it's widespread), they better wake up and realize that the large, permanent leagues like GSL and MLG will not put up with that for a second.
yeah im sure they wont
lol :D
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On September 03 2011 09:15 applejuice wrote:
Great
69 pages of discussion, but the fact is, it's actually not hard to stop.
It happened in MLG once (not SC2, obviously). They banned the players for two tournaments (I think?) and the national championships. PROBLEM SOLVED. Nobody is going to try weak shit like that when they can force a massive penalty such as that.
That shit may have flown in the days of smaller tournaments, but if some current pros actually do this (and i highly doubt it's widespread), they better wake up and realize that the large, permanent leagues like GSL and MLG will not put up with that for a second.
One player paid another player money to throw a match. That is a completely different scenario.
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On September 03 2011 09:15 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney and its still a way of managing the level of how much you lose. thus, it creates a non-competitive environment for the players, as such this cauese them to be less interested in beating the other person and they don't play at 100%. it thus defraud the tourney who makes the contract for that won money on the basis that you played your hardest both of you, and one won. so you're still back at the same point. Trying to obviate it with workarounds is completely trying to cheat the tournament, which makes it inherently wrong in the first place.
btw since when is "not trying" a form of cheating lol, competitive players will tend to actually always try hard, but you still see people not even trying even if there's money involved
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On September 03 2011 09:03 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 07:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 07:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck. They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours. anyway maybe your only motivation is the prize money, but most players see much farther than that, they're really just accomodating themselves by doing so I never said it was your only motivation. I said it wouldn't make it as dire. To suggest that prize money has no play in the matter is completely ignorant, especially when you're saying people are needing the money to survive and that it's their livelihood. I clearly gave you an example, where someone still wanting to win could spend 8 hours practicing as opposed to going 13. It's that difference that we're talking about. So the main argument against this is that it could "tamper" with the actual matches played between the two players? If that's the case, then there are far worse cases of "tampering." Didn't Leenock beg one of his teammates not to two-rax him in the Up/Down matches last season? Didn't Huk give MVP the go-ahead to 1/1/1 him in his interview, which encouraged MVP's Protoss practice partners to ask MVP to use the build in one game just so they could see Huk's nonexistent solution? Aren't mindgames common between two players even outside of SC2? These are all ways of "tampering" with a match, ways of making a match "impure." Should these be controlled as well?
Again, the distinction between public and private information is pretty important here. Posturing during pre-match interviews is pretty common across sports, and is acceptable because the information is public. The spectators know that Player A called out Player B on a certain tactic, and the mindgames begin. Even if the specatators don't all know about the pregame talk, it's the kind of thing that a commentator can bring up over the course of the cast to add some drama.
Prize deals, on the other hand, are necessarily private information as Nazgul has correctly pointed out. I can't see many fans reacting positively to news that the players in a grand final have agreed to a split regardless of the outcome. "Let's just keep this between you and me, ok?" A final with a secret deal beforehand is played under false pretenses. Spectators and tournament officials believe that there's a significant monetary reward for coming in first. That's exciting. Fans put themselves in the player's shoes and say, "Wow, I'd be so nervous with $30k on the line, how does he stay so cool?"
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On September 03 2011 09:16 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 08:43 Proflo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense ^^ seconded.... if you've made it to the finals of such a large tournament then you haven't done it without practicing in the first place, and this would in no way make people lose their incentive to practice... LOL .... There are really only two things wrong with this situation... It had nothing to do wtih practicing in the first place, learn to read. It's talking about preparation for the actual finals. Analyzing your opponent's builds. Asking around for top quality practice partners to practice that matchup in particular. Etc. most tournaments do not even allow enough time between semi final and final to consider practicing for it.... and when these deals happens anyway it's almost always between teammates which requires not much preparation as you know their playstyle, only thing you can do is try to metagame him
Valid point.
Regardless, it still very much has the potential to entice players to play differently (possibly more nonstandard) than they would have otherwise. You can argue this isn't bad at all, but I think players not going 100% to win is a bad thing. Sure, they may still want to win, who wouldn't, but it's completely different when there's little on the line.
But once again, it's still a valid point. I still think it's bad, but it's worse for leagues like the GSL where you do have preparation time.
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On September 03 2011 09:21 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:16 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 08:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 08:43 Proflo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense ^^ seconded.... if you've made it to the finals of such a large tournament then you haven't done it without practicing in the first place, and this would in no way make people lose their incentive to practice... LOL .... There are really only two things wrong with this situation... It had nothing to do wtih practicing in the first place, learn to read. It's talking about preparation for the actual finals. Analyzing your opponent's builds. Asking around for top quality practice partners to practice that matchup in particular. Etc. most tournaments do not even allow enough time between semi final and final to consider practicing for it.... and when these deals happens anyway it's almost always between teammates which requires not much preparation as you know their playstyle, only thing you can do is try to metagame him Valid point. Regardless, it still very much has the potential to entice players to play differently (possibly more nonstandard) than they would have otherwise. You can argue this isn't bad at all, but I think players not going 100% to win is a bad thing. Sure, they may still want to win, who wouldn't, but it's completely different when there's little on the line. But once again, it's still a valid point. I still think it's bad, but it's worse for leagues like the GSL where you do have preparation time.
the fact you're playing against your teammate is already going to make you play nonstandard due to massive history, money isn't an issue
50/50 might not be the best way to do it, but making it 55/45 is definitely fine
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On September 03 2011 07:02 Djzapz wrote:
I've done this in poker, I think it's OK. Players will still play to the fullest of their potential even without the money incentive. Hell, I'd say possibly even better.
I know I do better without the pressure. The games probably end up being even better.
If you do better without pressure, then you wouldnt ever make it to the finals of any event, thus proving your own point contradictory.
That also indicates that you're more likely to win in a non-competitive environment. If that is so, it is by logical assumption that a non-competitive environment is created, thereby rendering finals a joke and time waste, and also breaking the spirit, if not only the letter, of the agreement made with the tournament holders.
and you're ok with this behavior?
imo, both players got what they deserved from that deal. one got no money at all, which is exactly how much he deserves.
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On September 03 2011 09:01 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
From the few pages I've looked at, the only argument against these deals that I could find was that it MIGHT make the final games less fun to spectate.
Does anybody have an actually concrete argument?
Except, you know, we have one obvious example of the final games being less fun to spectate because of this, right in front of us.
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It's stupid, but you'd be hard pressed to prove anything in the majority of cases so I don't think there's much that can really be done...
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I personally don't have a problem with it since Pro SC2 players make very little money, when the very large difference between first and second place means one guy has to live on ramen for a year I don't have an issue with them splitting the prize. I think the top heavy prize pools are mostly for show, but in the end it makes living the life of a pro-gamer very hard.
Honestly, everyone can have it their way. Tournament hosts and fans can be wowed by the gigantic first place prize, and the players can chop in private. That way the players can make a living and the fans won't really care.
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On September 03 2011 09:23 Laevateinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:01 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
From the few pages I've looked at, the only argument against these deals that I could find was that it MIGHT make the final games less fun to spectate.
Does anybody have an actually concrete argument? Except, you know, we have one obvious example of the final games being less fun to spectate because of this, right in front of us.
did you spectate those games?
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Its also clearly ethically wrong, but apparently we're all opportunists with no sense of right or wrong, only a sense of cheating systems for money.
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Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents.
EDIT: I have not watched many SC2 tournaments but reading through this thread I don't think I ever will 
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On September 03 2011 09:19 Shaetan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:15 applejuice wrote:
Great
69 pages of discussion, but the fact is, it's actually not hard to stop.
It happened in MLG once (not SC2, obviously). They banned the players for two tournaments (I think?) and the national championships. PROBLEM SOLVED. Nobody is going to try weak shit like that when they can force a massive penalty such as that.
That shit may have flown in the days of smaller tournaments, but if some current pros actually do this (and i highly doubt it's widespread), they better wake up and realize that the large, permanent leagues like GSL and MLG will not put up with that for a second.
One player paid another player money to throw a match. That is a completely different scenario.
No, it's exactly the same scenario.
....
Suggest re-reading OP. Thread is about one player paying another to lose the match, which is exactly what you described, and exactly what happened in MLG (although the players claimed otherwise LOL). Resulting in a 50/50 split, or whatever the players agree on.
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This absolutely should be against the rules, no questions asked.
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On September 03 2011 09:23 Laevateinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:01 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
From the few pages I've looked at, the only argument against these deals that I could find was that it MIGHT make the final games less fun to spectate.
Does anybody have an actually concrete argument? Except, you know, we have one obvious example of the final games being less fun to spectate because of this, right in front of us.
yeah except NONE of the spectators even mentionned it or commented about it until TT1 did
you're really just being all hypocrites about it
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On September 03 2011 09:27 Truedot wrote:
Its also clearly ethically wrong, but apparently we're all opportunists with no sense of right or wrong, only a sense of cheating systems for money.
What exactly makes it wrong?
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On September 03 2011 09:26 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:23 Laevateinn wrote:On September 03 2011 09:01 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
From the few pages I've looked at, the only argument against these deals that I could find was that it MIGHT make the final games less fun to spectate.
Does anybody have an actually concrete argument? Except, you know, we have one obvious example of the final games being less fun to spectate because of this, right in front of us. did you spectate those games?
I like watching players playing their best and using their best strategies. 1 Base carrier doesn't apply to any of those.
If I wanted to watch players dicking around, I wouldn't watch a tournament.
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On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents.
once again
nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd
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EPT
