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On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed.
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense
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also to clarify TT1's comment on gg.net
he told me since he's now banned for 30 days that the reason he made this post was because he didn't want the split deal to go public which xeris probably didn't know about so once xeris announced it, it was too late
and please the fact that most pros keep this a "secret" is because it is private matter
I don't tell people about my sexual relationships and it doesn't make it illegal -.-
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On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney
It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed.
On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense
Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck.
They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours.
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On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense
So if the progamers can't split money and get more of it they will be less motivated to practice hard??
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I've done this in poker, I think it's OK. Players will still play to the fullest of their potential even without the money incentive. Hell, I'd say possibly even better.
I know I do better without the pressure. The games probably end up being even better.
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On September 03 2011 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed. Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck. They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours.
anyway maybe your only motivation is the prize money, but most players see much farther than that, they're really just accomodating themselves by doing so
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On September 03 2011 06:59 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense So if the progamers can't split money and get more of it they will be less motivated to practice hard??
the concept of variance seems fairly hard to grasp for people who have never experienced it it seems
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On September 02 2011 07:34 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 07:34 nkulu wrote:
When the difference between first and second is huge and both of them think its basically a 50/50 chance I can see why they would want to split the winnings instead. Playing without nerves will probably make better games for the spectators anyway. wheres your proof of this?
It's actually a double edged sword. Sure playing without stress could give you a lot of bold moves but it can also let you play like you simply don't care and want to finish it right away in order to get the prize or any other reason.
Playing with stress could make you play like worse than you usually do, especially in final stages as their strategy have been discovered throughout the entire tournament. But playing the game when your life depends on could also make the game enjoyable as well (that's coming from MLG tournaments, not the GSL where you could have plenty of time to train another strategy)
This "match fixing" has been everywhere anyway, from all kind of sports really. Hell, this game isn't really much different than poker where you can see a lot of players making deals before any tournaments.
I'd give it time before making it a "scandal" thing, as the esport is still really young.
Edit : Meh, i'm sorry i didn't read the entire thread. Seems like this poker's issue has already been discussed over. 
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On September 03 2011 07:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck. They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours. anyway maybe your only motivation is the prize money, but most players see much farther than that, they're really just accomodating themselves by doing so
I never said it was your only motivation. I said it wouldn't make it as dire. To suggest that prize money has no play in the matter is completely ignorant, especially when you're saying people are needing the money to survive and that it's their livelihood. I clearly gave you an example, where someone still wanting to win could spend 8 hours practicing as opposed to going 13. It's that difference that we're talking about.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed.
On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense
^^ seconded.... if you've made it to the finals of such a large tournament then you haven't done it without practicing in the first place, and this would in no way make people lose their incentive to practice... LOL .... There are really only two things wrong with this situation...
1.) Fenix straight up lied:
+ Show Spoiler +Maybe he thought that TT1 wouldn't try his hardest and he would therefore win the money easier Maybe there is information that hasn't surfaced yet (although sadly i doubt it) Either way... Its a shame that whenever moneys involved people can become such dicks... I definitely won't be a Fenix fan in the future (ouch that's gotta sting) + Show Spoiler +
Unless some information to the contrary surfaces... Although I highly doubt it will considering that FnaticMSI chose TT1 over him.. A decision I would hope didn't rely on player skill alone..
2.) The argument against TT1 if there even is one... would be that he should have played the game as if the money was actually on the line (As it actually was trollolol)
+ Show Spoiler +
Star craft II is a spectator sport... You guys are right the finals of a tournament are probably not the place to be going 1 base carrier...
Maybe TT1 should have played the games in a more straight up fashion...
Maybe after making an agreement to split finals money TT1 didn't see the need to play an exhausting macro game and wanted to entertain fans...
(lol maybe, maybe, either way, that's my format (^-_-^))
Either way while what TT1 did might have been ill-informed the fact of the matter is that he and Fenix made a totally legitimate agreement.... These types of agreements are made between players more often than some of you seem to think and I hope that the majority of you that are against this type of arrangement are simply under informed or thinking of the situation out of context....
All that these players are agreeing to is sharing the winnings of the finals regardless of the result... They are not fixing the final matches... and for most if not all players those games will result in just as high quality play as any other finals match... What TT1 did was definitely not the wisest strategy, and maybe it was the wrong decision, but i see nothing morally wrong with what he did.
Once again to clarify... If two players decide to split the final winnings regardless of the result there is in my opinion nothing wrong with that... The only argument that could be made to the contrary would be that both players might choose to not play as competitively as they might otherwise have...(as is unfortunately the case in this situation)
In the end what Fenix did was extremely dishonorable, he lied to a teammate and in my opinion completely deserved his removal from FnaticMSI...
TT1 made the misguided choice of treating the finals of a major tournament as a joke... Something which may be disappointing to spectators(or amusing I guess), but which in the end is not against any rules...
I am in no way a TT1 fanboy and prior to this debacle (grammar win?) I would probably have rooted for Fenix but lying to a teammate and effectively stealing a couple grand is definitely not ok haha...
TL;DR
I'm o.k with splitting tournament winnings...
One of my first actual responses so if I overused tags or you found my grammar bad tell me kind sirs.
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On September 03 2011 08:43 Proflo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense ^^ seconded.... if you've made it to the finals of such a large tournament then you haven't done it without practicing in the first place, and this would in no way make people lose their incentive to practice... LOL .... There are really only two things wrong with this situation...
It had nothing to do wtih practicing in the first place, learn to read. It's talking about preparation for the actual finals. Analyzing your opponent's builds. Asking around for top quality practice partners to practice that matchup in particular. Etc.
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I do not believe this would be considered "Match Fixing". Technically speaking there is no part of this that is "match fixing". The players agree to split the prizes prior to the finals. While a person can definitely consider this wrong you cannot simply pool the title as "Match Fixing". To prevent this, Tournament Organizers, could/should incorporate a anti "whatever you want to call this" rule which clearly states that both players will forfeit their respective prizes if found out. This will address the lack of consequences.
To create such a controversial topic based on calling it "Match Fixing" is wrong though.
The poll is skewed reflecting the fact that the author believes under all circumstances this is a form of match fixing and then attaching the words "but still quiet wrong". You can see why people would want to choose that option. You should definitely make a new poll and remove your bias.
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On September 03 2011 07:43 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 07:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck. They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours. anyway maybe your only motivation is the prize money, but most players see much farther than that, they're really just accomodating themselves by doing so I never said it was your only motivation. I said it wouldn't make it as dire. To suggest that prize money has no play in the matter is completely ignorant, especially when you're saying people are needing the money to survive and that it's their livelihood. I clearly gave you an example, where someone still wanting to win could spend 8 hours practicing as opposed to going 13. It's that difference that we're talking about.
The fact that players derive their livelihood from tournament winnings (in addition to a few rare salaries) is the reason that these types of agreements exist in the first place... If a player has practiced hard enough to make it to the finals than I have no problem whatsoever with him getting half of the prize money... in almost every case just as much effort will be put into the games and as far as the community is concerned just as much money was on the line... if the prize pool is really what makes you watch sc2 games...
And your argument that someone "REALLY WANTING TO WIN" would go 13 hrs a day instead of 8 is simply put stupid as shit. It's not like players go into a tournament thinking "well I only need to make it to the finals and then I can split the prize pool"... No. In this specific instance as well as a few others two teammates who were good friends ended up playing each other in the finals and made an agreement to split the winnings regardless of the outcome... Even IF you got half the winnings for making it to the finals it would still be just as competitive up until that point... your argument is shoddy at best and you REALLY have Zero actual examples just a false statement of fact....
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On September 03 2011 08:50 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:43 Proflo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense ^^ seconded.... if you've made it to the finals of such a large tournament then you haven't done it without practicing in the first place, and this would in no way make people lose their incentive to practice... LOL .... There are really only two things wrong with this situation... It had nothing to do wtih practicing in the first place, learn to read. It's talking about preparation for the actual finals. Analyzing your opponent's builds. Asking around for top quality practice partners to practice that matchup in particular. Etc.
"At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much."
^yeah that statement definitely has nothing to do with practicing...? He commented on your statement and I seconded his opinion. If you would kindly read my entire post (I will admit it is overly long) you would see very little of what i talked about had anything to do with the "lack of incentive to practice"
On a side note, i do believe that i can read at at least an 8th grade level =/.
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From the few pages I've looked at, the only argument against these deals that I could find was that it MIGHT make the final games less fun to spectate.
Does anybody have an actually concrete argument?
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On September 03 2011 07:43 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 07:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck. They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours. anyway maybe your only motivation is the prize money, but most players see much farther than that, they're really just accomodating themselves by doing so I never said it was your only motivation. I said it wouldn't make it as dire. To suggest that prize money has no play in the matter is completely ignorant, especially when you're saying people are needing the money to survive and that it's their livelihood. I clearly gave you an example, where someone still wanting to win could spend 8 hours practicing as opposed to going 13. It's that difference that we're talking about.
So the main argument against this is that it could "tamper" with the actual matches played between the two players?
If that's the case, then there are far worse cases of "tampering." Didn't Leenock beg one of his teammates not to two-rax him in the Up/Down matches last season? Didn't Huk give MVP the go-ahead to 1/1/1 him in his interview, which encouraged MVP's Protoss practice partners to ask MVP to use the build in one game just so they could see Huk's nonexistent solution? Aren't mindgames common between two players even outside of SC2?
These are all ways of "tampering" with a match, ways of making a match "impure." Should these be controlled as well?
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On September 03 2011 08:55 Proflo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 07:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 07:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck. They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours. anyway maybe your only motivation is the prize money, but most players see much farther than that, they're really just accomodating themselves by doing so I never said it was your only motivation. I said it wouldn't make it as dire. To suggest that prize money has no play in the matter is completely ignorant, especially when you're saying people are needing the money to survive and that it's their livelihood. I clearly gave you an example, where someone still wanting to win could spend 8 hours practicing as opposed to going 13. It's that difference that we're talking about. The fact that players derive their livelihood from tournament winnings (in addition to a few rare salaries) is the reason that these types of agreements exist in the first place... If a player has practiced hard enough to make it to the finals than I have no problem whatsoever with him getting half of the prize money... in almost every case just as much effort will be put into the games and as far as the community is concerned just as much money was on the line... if the prize pool is really what makes you watch sc2 games... And your argument that someone "REALLY WANTING TO WIN" would go 13 hrs a day instead of 8 is simply put stupid as shit. It's not like players go into a tournament thinking "well I only need to make it to the finals and then I can split the prize pool"... No. In this specific instance as well as a few others two teammates who were good friends ended up playing each other in the finals and made an agreement to split the winnings regardless of the outcome... Even IF you got half the winnings for making it to the finals it would still be just as competitive up until that point... your argument is shoddy at best and you REALLY have Zero actual examples just a false statement of fact....
They already made it to second, which almost always offers a decent prize. "They've practiced hard enough to make it to the finals" what? What about those who made Ro8. They've practiced to make it that far! In the GSL, Ro8 is a fairly large deal in and of itself. They made it to the finals. They did not win the finals, thus they shouldn't get money that was designated for the winner. To put it in your words, "your argument is stupid as shit."
Guess what? I've been in that situation. I've talked to someone else about splitting a $4,500 prize as it was between us two. I didn't pay a single game a full WEEK because I was busy in school. Guess what happened when we both decided to not go through with the deal before the tourney was over? I stayed home from school and played almost 12 hours. I won, in the end. Not only are you being highly ignorant on this matter but clearly the entire reason this entire thread was made was due to the TT1/Fenix situation which JUST HAPPENED. Please before being so bold to say I have zero actual examples please actually look into the matter.
On September 03 2011 09:03 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 07:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 07:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 06:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney It wouldn't hold up in court, assuming the contract was legal. It doesn't have to be the exact same physical dollars, lol. Would be a cute attempt, but instantly slammed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense Erm? TT1 vs Fenix right there. TT1 didn't give a flying fuck. They lose their incentive to practice hard for the finals. If you have glory + $5,000 on the line vs simply glory, there's a HUGE difference. It might meant he difference between you practicing 13 hours before the finals vs 7-8 hours. anyway maybe your only motivation is the prize money, but most players see much farther than that, they're really just accomodating themselves by doing so I never said it was your only motivation. I said it wouldn't make it as dire. To suggest that prize money has no play in the matter is completely ignorant, especially when you're saying people are needing the money to survive and that it's their livelihood. I clearly gave you an example, where someone still wanting to win could spend 8 hours practicing as opposed to going 13. It's that difference that we're talking about. So the main argument against this is that it could "tamper" with the actual matches played between the two players? If that's the case, then there are far worse cases of "tampering." Didn't Leenock beg one of his teammates not to two-rax him in the Up/Down matches last season? Didn't Huk give MVP the go-ahead to 1/1/1 him in his interview, which encouraged MVP's Protoss practice partners to ask MVP to use the build in one game just so they could see Huk's nonexistent solution? Aren't mindgames common between two players even outside of SC2? These are all ways of "tampering" with a match, ways of making a match "impure." Should these be controlled as well?
Sorry I don't understand, I don't think I alluded to tampering at all. Can you elaborate? And mindgames are awesome.
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Great
69 pages of discussion, but the fact is, it's actually not hard to stop.
It happened in MLG once (not SC2, obviously). They banned the players for two tournaments (I think?) and the national championships. PROBLEM SOLVED. Nobody is going to try weak shit like that when they can force a massive penalty such as that.
That shit may have flown in the days of smaller tournaments, but if some current pros actually do this (and i highly doubt it's widespread), they better wake up and realize that the large, permanent leagues like GSL and MLG will not put up with that for a second.
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On September 03 2011 06:39 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:34 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed. you cant do anything about what people do with their money after they win it. its their money. but you can do contracts to prevent them from making deals before hand, since its not their money until they win. if the contract says they are prevented from making any deals that would cheapen or invalidate competitive play during the tournament, on forfeiture of winnings if found out, then even once they get the money, and if they spend it all, if found out, they would have to give it all back to the tournament, and if they spent it all, that means they would have to make money to give it back. On September 03 2011 05:33 Full.tilt wrote:
What is with this "sc2 fans entitlement" and "the sense of entitlement disgusts me" bullshit? What's wrong with expecting prize money to be split as the tournament organisers advertise and then being disappointed it does not happen. whats with this SC2 pro and pro supporter sense of entitlement that people should be able to make deals because its their money? Its not their money yet. Its only their money once they win. How can you agree to split the money by defrauding a tournament and thinking thats okay makes no sense to me. ok then they say they both have 10 000$ in their bank account and they agree that in a tournament where 1st place is 5000$ and 2nd place is 2000$ the winner sends 1500$ of his own money they're doing it with their own money, not the money from the tourney
and its still a way of managing the level of how much you lose. thus, it creates a non-competitive environment for the players, as such this cauese them to be less interested in beating the other person and they don't play at 100%. it thus defraud the tourney who makes the contract for that won money on the basis that you played your hardest both of you, and one won. so you're still back at the same point. Trying to obviate it with workarounds is completely trying to cheat the tournament, which makes it inherently wrong in the first place.
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On September 03 2011 08:50 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:43 Proflo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense ^^ seconded.... if you've made it to the finals of such a large tournament then you haven't done it without practicing in the first place, and this would in no way make people lose their incentive to practice... LOL .... There are really only two things wrong with this situation... It had nothing to do wtih practicing in the first place, learn to read. It's talking about preparation for the actual finals. Analyzing your opponent's builds. Asking around for top quality practice partners to practice that matchup in particular. Etc.
most tournaments do not even allow enough time between semi final and final to consider practicing for it.... and when these deals happens anyway it's almost always between teammates which requires not much preparation as you know their playstyle, only thing you can do is try to metagame him
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EPT
