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On September 03 2011 09:29 Laevateinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:26 benjammin wrote:On September 03 2011 09:23 Laevateinn wrote:On September 03 2011 09:01 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
From the few pages I've looked at, the only argument against these deals that I could find was that it MIGHT make the final games less fun to spectate.
Does anybody have an actually concrete argument? Except, you know, we have one obvious example of the final games being less fun to spectate because of this, right in front of us. did you spectate those games? I like watching players playing their best and using their best strategies. 1 Base carrier doesn't apply to any of those. If I wanted to watch players dicking around, I wouldn't watch a tournament.
yeah cuz select didn't dick around at all going battlecruiser against incontrol fairly early
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On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd
Notice the quotation marks?
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yeah you want me to put the same words inbetween quotation marks as well?
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On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd
It's like playing poker without real money to back it up. It doesn't work.
It's a moot point whether the match is actually fixed or not, the competition is going to suck either way.
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On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd
once again
making a deal in secret to adjust the payout for a tournament final is the first step on a slippery slope. In doing so, players have agreed that money is important to them, and that public opinion and in most cases, tournament rules are not important to them. Not the direction I'd like to see SC2 progaming headed.
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COMMUNISM!!!
lol
The problem is the fact that SC2 is a spectator sport, while poker is like a gambling sport. So it can get boring when the players play casually.
but then again, Korean comentators can make the monotonous task of a scv mining into something like a news report of a giant cookie monster eating up the empire statebuilding.
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On September 03 2011 09:33 applejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd It's like playing poker without real money to back it up. It doesn't work. It's a moot point whether the match is actually fixed or not, the competition is going to suck either way.
pretty sure from all the finals u've watched thus far u couldn't tell which have been case of prize being split and not
also your analogy with poker makes no sense at all
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On September 03 2011 09:33 applejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd It's like playing poker without real money to back it up. It doesn't work. It's a moot point whether the match is actually fixed or not, the competition is going to suck either way.
Not a moot point. The difference is, fixing games and rigging matches are usually illegal or at the minimum, against tournament rules, but there is no rules regarding splitting your prize money. The money is yours and you can split it however you want.
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Do you just like to argue lol?
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On September 03 2011 09:34 nanoscorp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd once again making a deal in secret to adjust the payout for a tournament final is the first step on a slippery slope. In doing so, players have agreed that money is important to them, and that public opinion and in most cases, tournament rules are not important to them. Not the direction I'd like to see SC2 progaming headed.
what if the public opinion was that players should give their winnings to charity, would it be wrong for them to take the money for themselves?
seriously ur arguments are so weak, it's really just "oh well the finals might suck"
it feels like you people think the players are making more money by doing that
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On September 03 2011 09:35 Dragom wrote:
COMMUNISM!!!
lol
The problem is the fact that SC2 is a spectator sport, while poker is like a gambling sport. So it can get boring when the players play casually.
but then again, Korean comentators can make the monotonous task of a scv mining into something like a news report of a giant cookie monster eating up the empire statebuilding.
yea good point, 90% of the entertainment in a game comes from the caster, not the players
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I know this has probably already been discussed, however i'm late to the thread.
Even if it was made "illegal" how are you going to stop it? You aren't going to because it's impossible.
I'd imagine deals like this are made all the time, and even if the viewers are robbed of an experience, the players don't care since they get money regardless(which is why they play, not for your enjoyment).
Even if it was "illegal" there's still zero way to stop it, or even tell if it's happening. Unless of course every tourney didn't release results to the players until the matches had been played which doesn't stop the players from telling each other who won said games. So IMO there's absolutely no way to stop it at all, besides the players themselves not doing it
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On September 03 2011 09:38 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:34 nanoscorp wrote:On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd once again making a deal in secret to adjust the payout for a tournament final is the first step on a slippery slope. In doing so, players have agreed that money is important to them, and that public opinion and in most cases, tournament rules are not important to them. Not the direction I'd like to see SC2 progaming headed. what if the public opinion was that players should give their winnings to charity, would it be wrong for them to take the money for themselves? seriously ur arguments are so weak, it's really just "oh well the finals might suck" it feels like you people think the players are making more money by doing that
Alot of people would obviously lose respect for the player...
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On September 03 2011 09:28 TheRealPaciFist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:27 Truedot wrote:
Its also clearly ethically wrong, but apparently we're all opportunists with no sense of right or wrong, only a sense of cheating systems for money. What exactly makes it wrong?
what exactly makes anything wrong? Shall I go on a murder spree now and use your defense?
tell you what. Players can have this, as long as they also give back a percentage to the Tournament runners, the sponsers, and all the fans, personally. That percentage being equal to the percentage of the final game to all the other games in that tournament.
DO that for making "buddy" agreements, and then its ok. because they're not defrauding anyone then.
Does this clarify it for you? In fact, I guarantee that even if this is done so that it appears acceptable it will still kill interest in it. So go ahead make your behind the back agreements, and kill the cash cow. Smart idea.
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On September 03 2011 09:41 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:28 TheRealPaciFist wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Truedot wrote:
Its also clearly ethically wrong, but apparently we're all opportunists with no sense of right or wrong, only a sense of cheating systems for money. What exactly makes it wrong? what exactly makes anything wrong? Shall I go on a murder spree now and use your defense?
Don't be ridiculous. I don't see what's wrong about two people agreeing to split prize money if they happen to make first and second place. Would you please explain this to me with some sort of logic and reasoning? If you can't, there's no need to be rude.
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On September 03 2011 09:36 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:33 applejuice wrote:On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd It's like playing poker without real money to back it up. It doesn't work. It's a moot point whether the match is actually fixed or not, the competition is going to suck either way. Not a moot point. The difference is, fixing games and rigging matches are usually illegal or at the minimum, against tournament rules, but there is no rules regarding splitting your prize money. The money is yours and you can split it however you want.
...but there is no rules regarding splitting your prize money. The money is yours and you can split it however you want.
While your straw man is intriguing, the split you are referring to occurs before the match begins, not after. It's a fix.
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On September 03 2011 09:38 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:34 nanoscorp wrote:On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd once again making a deal in secret to adjust the payout for a tournament final is the first step on a slippery slope. In doing so, players have agreed that money is important to them, and that public opinion and in most cases, tournament rules are not important to them. Not the direction I'd like to see SC2 progaming headed. what if the public opinion was that players should give their winnings to charity, would it be wrong for them to take the money for themselves? seriously ur arguments are so weak, it's really just "oh well the finals might suck" it feels like you people think the players are making more money by doing that
Absolutely. If the public was led to believe that stream proceeds or a tournament prize was going to a charity of the winner's choice, and the winner instead pocketed the money, he'd be wrong.
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What people do with their own money in general is their own buniness, and is nobody elses concern. Make it illegal? Have you ever hear the term 'liberalisme'? No, just hell no to that question. It's not even practical to make it illegal, anyways.
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On September 03 2011 09:31 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:29 Laevateinn wrote:On September 03 2011 09:26 benjammin wrote:On September 03 2011 09:23 Laevateinn wrote:On September 03 2011 09:01 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
From the few pages I've looked at, the only argument against these deals that I could find was that it MIGHT make the final games less fun to spectate.
Does anybody have an actually concrete argument? Except, you know, we have one obvious example of the final games being less fun to spectate because of this, right in front of us. did you spectate those games? I like watching players playing their best and using their best strategies. 1 Base carrier doesn't apply to any of those. If I wanted to watch players dicking around, I wouldn't watch a tournament. yeah cuz select didn't dick around at all going battlecruiser against incontrol fairly early
Those were the finals?
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On September 03 2011 09:43 applejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:36 Fubi wrote:On September 03 2011 09:33 applejuice wrote:On September 03 2011 09:30 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:27 Saturnize wrote:
Been reading through most of this thread. I see the argument "well its their money they can do what they want with it so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!" a lot in this thread as if we are arguing about the ethics of it vs whether it is something that will degrade competitive SC2 in the long run/make it less exciting if there is always going to be that stigma of two 1/2 placers agreeing to split the stash. While it may be with in their rights to do whatever they want to with the money, it does make competitive SC2 look really lame compared to any other competitive event like golf or poker when you have people agreeing to throw matches in order to get a share of the 1st prize. Do I blame these actions when you look at how much a top 10 SC2 progamer makes in relation to a sub 100 golfer makes? Of course not! When you get bigger prizepools and more cash finishes I think that there will be less of an incentive to "rig matches" than there will be in a tournament with a smaller prizepool.
Most of the people in this thread want to argue the ethics/morals of what people do with their own money vs if it is good for the professional SC2 scene in the long run. I think that if SC2 is ever to be taken "seriously" people need to stop "fixing" these games.
just my 2 cents. once again nobody talked about fixing games or rigging matches... just altering the prize money for 1st and 2nd It's like playing poker without real money to back it up. It doesn't work. It's a moot point whether the match is actually fixed or not, the competition is going to suck either way. Not a moot point. The difference is, fixing games and rigging matches are usually illegal or at the minimum, against tournament rules, but there is no rules regarding splitting your prize money. The money is yours and you can split it however you want. ...but there is no rules regarding splitting your prize money. The money is yours and you can split it however you want.While your straw man is intriguing, the split you are referring to occurs before the match begins, not after. It's a fix.
a fix of the prize pool, not the matches
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EPT
