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On September 03 2011 10:02 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:57 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:51 Saturnize wrote:
Christ enough with the semantic bullshit. When someone says "fix", "rig" its the same as two players agreeing to share the prize pool BEFORE the game therefore "f-i-x-i-n-g" the outcome, just like applejuice said. One more thing. If they decided to share AFTER the event this would be a non issue. you are not fixing the outcome, you are changing what 1st place gets and 2nd place gets, the match still plays as usual, nothing changes for spectators or anyone than the 2 players earnings in the end Thats true. You're changing what 1st and 2nd place gets. Therefore, the tournament has the right to make first place worth 10,000, while second place is worth 10,000. See a problem with that? Why doesn't a tourney do that in the first place? Answer this and your own question about the ethics of changing their tournaments reward pool has a glaringly obvious answer. The tournament has no decision in the money thats still in their possession. We all agree that if a team player agrees to give money after the match, its fine. There's no problem once it becomes their money, they can go nuts with it. Beforehand, you're manipulating the winnings the tournament is giving out That alone should tell you its wrong. or maybe your parents taught you that manipulation is A-Ok, in which case, we don't really have anything further to discuss.
... You know if 1st and 2nd prize are the same theres no real reason to even try in the finals. I don't know why you think making the prizes the same is going to give them incentive to play hint: it isnt.
If the prizes are the same they can do whatever the fuck they want, worker rush every game and lose? sure, we both win the same prize.
Why would they agree to give after the match? That's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. It's like saying here man i won without us even talking about it but i'll give you some of my winnings anyway. What kind of jackass is going to do that? No one that's who.
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On September 03 2011 10:07 nanoscorp wrote:
There's a difference between "This guy is playing to win $50,000" and "This guy is playing to win." The first case happens maybe 1-2 times a month tops, and people get pretty excited about it. The second case happens thousands of times a day and, on average, does not draw nearly as many viewers.
I'd prefer it if players kept the stakes of their matches public. I don't want to see what amounts to two successful guys running into each other on the ladder if it's billed as a tournament final.
Also for me at least, knowing I will be lied to about the stakes of some of the games I will watch makes me at least a bit less inclined to be enthusiastically interested. I don't like being misled, and I don't think most other people do either.
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On September 03 2011 09:35 Dragom wrote:
but then again, Korean comentators can make the monotonous task of a scv mining into something like a news report of a giant cookie monster eating up the empire statebuilding.
I want to eat a giant cookie monster now *-*.
Thats like team orders in racing games x3. You can accuse them but you certainly never can proof it. One messed up tire change and suddenly the places are switched. A tournament having to check for such things, would probably have to invest 75% of their pricepool. Or if all of them form an organisation, the price pool would be reduced by 10%. You can start doing this if the money involved reaches soccer or football level. Before its not economical heh.
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sigh, it's like my friend who won WSOP ME that was about $9 000 000,00, everybody thinks WOW HE'S 9 MILLIONS DOLLAR RICHER
but really he had only ~50% of his own action and the general public who watched it on TV don't know nor is it any of their business
so if 2 players in the finals of a SC2 match want to make it 10 000$ for first place and 8 000$ for 2nd place instead of 14 000$ and 4 000$ it's their own goddamn business and spectators won't even notice anyway
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you're taking all the spectators for some dumbasses. you don't realize how much power this community has. if this keeps going on, they will find out and even if you don't find out, this just won't help you or any other pro gamer in the long run. do u think an unclean competition such as this will help popularize it? seriously competitors should stop taking spectators for a joke. jesus we are what drives this industry.
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On September 03 2011 10:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:09 LloydRays wrote:
full proof of the elitist nature of the pro players. if it weren't for this elitist nature u're talking about, achieving pro status wouldn't be possible
Out of curiosity, does anybody know if the Koreans "deal make" like this ?
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On September 03 2011 10:40 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 10:09 LloydRays wrote:
full proof of the elitist nature of the pro players. if it weren't for this elitist nature u're talking about, achieving pro status wouldn't be possible Out of curiosity, does anybody know if the Koreans "deal make" like this ?
I got told they do, not surprising at all, and it shouldn't make anyone think any less of them as they always try hard
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How often does this happen in non-teammate situations ? Is it pretty much only among teammates ?
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On September 03 2011 11:01 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:40 Kaitlin wrote:On September 03 2011 10:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 10:09 LloydRays wrote:
full proof of the elitist nature of the pro players. if it weren't for this elitist nature u're talking about, achieving pro status wouldn't be possible Out of curiosity, does anybody know if the Koreans "deal make" like this ? I got told they do, not surprising at all, and it shouldn't make anyone think any less of them as they always try hard
Pretty much this.
I was traveling for about 8 hours today, so I've been out of this thread, but what it comes down to is that there are plenty of players that play like shit because money isn't a part of the equation, there are plenty of players that play like shit because money is a big part of the equation and there are players who don't care as long as they can play the game professionally.
There are so many variables that actually affect the quality of games that singling this one thing out makes little sense to me, particularly when it's something that would be so difficult to enforce. Should it be kept a secret? I don't give a fuck. It's their money, it's their personal dealings, they can do what they want.
I can see now why people would want to keep it a secret, because people in this thread seem to be flipping their shit. There are already players in Starcraft who basically don't have to worry about money and the actual prizes mean very little. Ultimately, success matters so much in securing team sponsorships that what players want to do with the prize pool to sustain themselves is really not an issue to me.
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On September 03 2011 10:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:09 LloydRays wrote:
full proof of the elitist nature of the pro players. if it weren't for this elitist nature u're talking about, achieving pro status wouldn't be possible
Dude, you've been out here on the forefront fighting the good fight of reason forever. Do you want a care package or something? Let me know.
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On September 03 2011 11:16 maahes`ra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 10:09 LloydRays wrote:
full proof of the elitist nature of the pro players. if it weren't for this elitist nature u're talking about, achieving pro status wouldn't be possible Dude, you've been out here on the forefront fighting the good fight of reason forever. Do you want a care package or something? Let me know.
thx bro im having fun
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Considering how badly the match-fixing scandal wasted the BW scene, any whiff of it would probably help kill off SC2 in korea in my opinion. This is srs fkn bsns yo
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On September 03 2011 09:27 applejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:19 Shaetan wrote:On September 03 2011 09:15 applejuice wrote:
Great
69 pages of discussion, but the fact is, it's actually not hard to stop.
It happened in MLG once (not SC2, obviously). They banned the players for two tournaments (I think?) and the national championships. PROBLEM SOLVED. Nobody is going to try weak shit like that when they can force a massive penalty such as that.
That shit may have flown in the days of smaller tournaments, but if some current pros actually do this (and i highly doubt it's widespread), they better wake up and realize that the large, permanent leagues like GSL and MLG will not put up with that for a second.
One player paid another player money to throw a match. That is a completely different scenario. No, it's exactly the same scenario. .... Suggest re-reading OP. Thread is about one player paying another to lose the match, which is exactly what you described, and exactly what happened in MLG (although the players claimed otherwise LOL). Resulting in a 50/50 split, or whatever the players agree on.
super smash: here is money to lose the next game.
gamecune: hey lets split whatever money we make this tournament
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On September 03 2011 10:06 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:59 Proflo wrote:On September 03 2011 08:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 03 2011 08:43 Proflo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 05:17 hacky wrote:
I don't understand any of this animosity toward prize splits. If both parties agree and it only affects both parties in terms of prizes, what business do you have with what they do? They've already earned their keep. They didn't earn any of it, if the tournament wanted to offer those prize amount they'd make the first and second prize equal. At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much. It kills the competitive spirit, we've already seen TT1 not give a shit about the finals he was in. So please, no matter how much people "want the glory," there's not even close to as much on the line. And yes, I'd rather have the progamers be shit out of luck with "only" the second place prize money. Get out of the damn profession, shit. Don't get me wrong, I've considered doing the same thing when there was a ton of money on the line, but I didn't, and at the same time when I was considering it I felt I was doing something incredibly wrong. Hypocritical... yes, but that doesn't mean it should be endorsed. On September 03 2011 06:47 ReignFayth wrote:
how the hell do you explain that people will lose their incentive to practice hard, that makes no sense ^^ seconded.... if you've made it to the finals of such a large tournament then you haven't done it without practicing in the first place, and this would in no way make people lose their incentive to practice... LOL .... There are really only two things wrong with this situation... It had nothing to do wtih practicing in the first place, learn to read. It's talking about preparation for the actual finals. Analyzing your opponent's builds. Asking around for top quality practice partners to practice that matchup in particular. Etc. "At the same time, you lose your incentive to practice hard, and it simply doesn't mean as much." ^yeah that statement definitely has nothing to do with practicing...? He commented on your statement and I seconded his opinion. If you would kindly read my entire post (I will admit it is overly long) you would see very little of what i talked about had anything to do with the "lack of incentive to practice" On a side note, i do believe that i can read at at least an 8th grade level =/. Practice hard specifically for finals =! practice hard for the tournament in general.
As has already been stated, most tournaments play out over the course of a weekend, not giving a player time to prepare for the final other than maybe a few hours and what he has previously practiced.
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On September 03 2011 11:32 Taku wrote:
Considering how badly the match-fixing scandal wasted the BW scene, any whiff of it would probably help kill off SC2 in korea in my opinion. This is srs fkn bsns yo
Completely different and unrelated. Since apparently half the people on TL fail at reading comprehension, match fixing is not deal making. In BW, they fixed matches so that one player would lose and hence bettors could profit. The TT1/Fenix case was deal-making, where they both agreed that they would split the prize, but still play out the games without an agreed winner.
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On September 03 2011 10:20 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:02 Truedot wrote:On September 03 2011 09:57 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 09:51 Saturnize wrote:
Christ enough with the semantic bullshit. When someone says "fix", "rig" its the same as two players agreeing to share the prize pool BEFORE the game therefore "f-i-x-i-n-g" the outcome, just like applejuice said. One more thing. If they decided to share AFTER the event this would be a non issue. you are not fixing the outcome, you are changing what 1st place gets and 2nd place gets, the match still plays as usual, nothing changes for spectators or anyone than the 2 players earnings in the end Thats true. You're changing what 1st and 2nd place gets. Therefore, the tournament has the right to make first place worth 10,000, while second place is worth 10,000. See a problem with that? Why doesn't a tourney do that in the first place? Answer this and your own question about the ethics of changing their tournaments reward pool has a glaringly obvious answer. The tournament has no decision in the money thats still in their possession. We all agree that if a team player agrees to give money after the match, its fine. There's no problem once it becomes their money, they can go nuts with it. Beforehand, you're manipulating the winnings the tournament is giving out That alone should tell you its wrong. or maybe your parents taught you that manipulation is A-Ok, in which case, we don't really have anything further to discuss. ... You know if 1st and 2nd prize are the same theres no real reason to even try in the finals. I don't know why you think making the prizes the same is going to give them incentive to play hint: it isnt.
I'm glad you're reinforcing my point. The same situation happens with agreers, only without the knowledge of the Tournament to adjust their winnings accordingly. This is exactly what fraud is, so yeah...
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On September 03 2011 10:00 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:59 Saturnize wrote:On September 03 2011 09:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
I feel like people who complain about spectators getting a "worse show" because two people decided to be friendly and share money instead of the loser being shafted are being selfish, unreasonable, and irrational. There's no way you would be able to stop it from happening, and saying people shouldn't be allowed to make a deal to share money is ridiculous. Do you care so much about getting a good show that you don't care about the players? What is this?... I don't even... Are you saying that people who would rather see a solid match with no "predetermined" outcome are selfish because they don't care about joe schmoe XYZ who needs to pay his rent? Most everyone in the progaming arena knew what they were getting into well before they decided to be a progamer. But I think I get your point and actually I agree... How about we award everyone who made it in the top 8 the same prize money regardless of where they finish after the fact. Communist Starcraft! clearly your brain can't seem to process the difference between match fixing and deal making so you might as well just drop the subject this is getting really annoying to see you not learning lol
It's also getting really annoying to see you constantly launching personal attacks on people you don't know. You were an excellent player but believe it or not that doesn't actually make you A) smarter, or B) any more of a moral authority than anyone else. Please be civil.
EDIT: I figured it was implied, but I want to be clear. I would also respectfully request that the people who disagree with Fayth be civil as well. Disagreement is one thing, rage is another.
This debate is getting circular. As much as this is discussed nothing is going to change - it is not physically possible nor profitable to monitor all progamers and subject them to whatever morality the audience thinks is right. That said, the professional scene is driven by the spectators (no spectators means no money) so it might be wise to take into account what they think.
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I just want to (hopefully) make something clear here: the difference between "match-fixing" and "deal-making".
Match-fixing: Where two players agree beforehand who should win the match, and play it out in such a way as to make it happen.
Deal-making: Where two players agree to alter the prize payouts to be more agreeable, and then play the match with the new prizes.
Notice how, in the definition of deal-making, the outcome of the match is never brought up. That's because the outcome of the match doesn't matter. Deal-making is solely about the prize pool and how it is paid out to the players.
Now, all you people who are saying no to deal-making because you think it's the same thing as match-fixing, digest the above definitions and reconsider. Then, if you still disagree, then that's fine. But don't equate the two terms, because they really aren't very close at all.
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Well, splitting it 50/50 might be a bit much, but i don't see it as too wrong it makes things much freindlier.
Just my oppinion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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On September 03 2011 11:01 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:40 Kaitlin wrote:On September 03 2011 10:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 03 2011 10:09 LloydRays wrote:
full proof of the elitist nature of the pro players. if it weren't for this elitist nature u're talking about, achieving pro status wouldn't be possible Out of curiosity, does anybody know if the Koreans "deal make" like this ? I got told they do, not surprising at all, and it shouldn't make anyone think any less of them as they always try hard
Wait earlier (much much earlier) in this thread you were spouting "facts" to support your position and when asked for sources you claimed ToD for all sources for everything you said...while being insulting (to everyone that talked for pages) in every response defending your concept.
Now your saying "I was told" so your concept of sources is heresay.
Awesome representative of your community!
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EPT
