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On September 02 2011 14:28 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss i think that is 1000000x scummier than two players chopping up 1st/2nd in a tourney fwiw But if players should do everything they can to win, surely avoiding a player you know to be strong is the correct thing to do. If anyone's to blame it's the tournament format. Remember, don't hate the player, hate the game.
i'm not arguing that it didn't make sense for people to do, but that is cleeeearly much worse than chopping up 1st/2nd, and actually does result in worse games. regardless, that didn't seem to tarnish either player's reputation greatly yet here everyone is shitting on tt1, shrug
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So what fayth is saying is that if you go pro and join a team you should not expect to keep your winnings after a teamkill finals? Its pretty sad to me if you cant opt out of such deals cos they are expected at the top tier of gamers who have to practice and live with each other. Guess the foreign scene is too inbred atm and could do with IM's world domination.
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On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss
BratOK actually left, lol.
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On September 02 2011 14:35 T0fuuu wrote:
So what fayth is saying is that if you go pro and join a team you should not expect to keep your winnings after a teamkill finals? Its pretty sad to me if you cant opt out of such deals cos they are expected among at the top tier of gamers who have to practice and live with each other. Guess the foreign scene is too inbred atm and could do with IM's world domination.
you can definitely keep your winnings after a teamkill final if you refuse to take the deal with ur teammate.....
I'm just saying most people do it, that's all, nothing is forced, 2 players agree to split X amount of money
that is it.
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This is exactly match fixing. I don't get why the poll results are so retarded.
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On September 02 2011 14:44 PH wrote:
This is exactly match fixing. I don't get why the poll results are so retarded.
Define match fixing
I dunno why I'm even asking you that, it's already been said over and over again that this isn't match fixing
but go ahead, entertain me
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tt1 is the one to blame for me
it sould be good finals and he does 1base carrier and not taking final for real ? that should be never allowed so plz dont allow this kind of match prearangement
@faiyth not match fixing in kind of the normal understanding but still it is. not playing real knowing i get money anyways make not normal result and the match is "fixed"
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If you're playing your best still for fame/sponsors, etc (Which 99% of people will be - obviously not TT1 for whatever reason), then it is perfectly fine.
Going 1 base carrier is stupid.
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On September 02 2011 14:49 CoR wrote:
tt1 is the one to blame for me
it sould be good finals and he does 1base carrier and not taking final for real ? that should be never allowed so plz dont allow this kind of match prearangement
@faiyth not match fixing in kind of the normal understanding but still it is. not playing real knowing i get money anyways make not normal result and the match is "fixed"
how on earth can you say someone should get 2500 stolen from them for playing a certain way? and according to tt1 it was charge > 2 base carrier, but for the life of me i cant find the games anywhere
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On September 02 2011 14:49 CoR wrote:
tt1 is the one to blame for me
it sould be good finals and he does 1base carrier and not taking final for real ? that should be never allowed so plz dont allow this kind of match prearangement
@faiyth not match fixing in kind of the normal understanding but still it is. not playing real knowing i get money anyways make not normal result and the match is "fixed"
it isn't, results arent decided beforehand, it's like saying IdrA playing on tilt is match fixing because the result of the match shouldn't have gone this way if idra wasn't tilted
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On September 02 2011 14:53 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:49 CoR wrote:
tt1 is the one to blame for me
it sould be good finals and he does 1base carrier and not taking final for real ? that should be never allowed so plz dont allow this kind of match prearangement
@faiyth not match fixing in kind of the normal understanding but still it is. not playing real knowing i get money anyways make not normal result and the match is "fixed" it isn't, results arent decided beforehand, it's like saying IdrA playing on tilt is match fixing because the result of the match shouldn't have gone this way if idra wasn't tilted
Don't give them ideas dude... 
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On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D
Here lol
+ Show Spoiler [The 3th game] +
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On September 02 2011 14:53 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:49 CoR wrote:
tt1 is the one to blame for me
it sould be good finals and he does 1base carrier and not taking final for real ? that should be never allowed so plz dont allow this kind of match prearangement
@faiyth not match fixing in kind of the normal understanding but still it is. not playing real knowing i get money anyways make not normal result and the match is "fixed" it isn't, results arent decided beforehand, it's like saying IdrA playing on tilt is match fixing because the result of the match shouldn't have gone this way if idra wasn't tilted
Fayth, personally I think it is fine between team-mates as the animosity and not helping each other out is bad.
However, would you agree that without huge prize money on the line, the games would not be as... impactful? True it is still worth playing for pride, recognition, bragging rights etc., but playing for X amount of $ is just another incentive/push/etc. to bring the most of out a player and the game.
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It is ok to give a share of your money to practice partners, but splitting the price money evenly among team mates attending the same tournament should not be encouraged. It's just against the competitive spirit and comparisons with poker are way off. Spectators don't want to see lazy 1 base carrier rushes or fake games like between Hwasin and Calm.
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On September 02 2011 14:37 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:35 T0fuuu wrote:
So what fayth is saying is that if you go pro and join a team you should not expect to keep your winnings after a teamkill finals? Its pretty sad to me if you cant opt out of such deals cos they are expected among at the top tier of gamers who have to practice and live with each other. Guess the foreign scene is too inbred atm and could do with IM's world domination. you can definitely keep your winnings after a teamkill final if you refuse to take the deal with ur teammate..... I'm just saying most people do it, that's all, nothing is forced, 2 players agree to split X amount of money that is it.
If its that widespread then its a problem for the player cos if you won't do it, its like "why should I help that guy or train with him if he only thinks of himself" kind of thing where you might hide builds and weaknesses from each other. Foreign scene is already quite closed without the luxury of many good/dedicated training partners and TT1 and fnatic were visibly burned from this.
Its pretty much a non-issue though because teamkill finals are so rare. But I hope that most pros would at least give the fans/spectators good games/actually try to play if they have already split the money beforehand.
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On September 02 2011 15:00 ArchDC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:53 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 14:49 CoR wrote:
tt1 is the one to blame for me
it sould be good finals and he does 1base carrier and not taking final for real ? that should be never allowed so plz dont allow this kind of match prearangement
@faiyth not match fixing in kind of the normal understanding but still it is. not playing real knowing i get money anyways make not normal result and the match is "fixed" it isn't, results arent decided beforehand, it's like saying IdrA playing on tilt is match fixing because the result of the match shouldn't have gone this way if idra wasn't tilted Fayth, personally I think it is fine between team-mates as the animosity and not helping each other out is bad. However, would you agree that without huge prize money on the line, the games would not be as... impactful? True it is still worth playing for pride, recognition, bragging rights etc., but playing for X amount of $ is just another incentive/push/etc. to bring the most of out a player and the game.
I do not think the players play better because X amount of money is involved
they do however do whatever they think is the best way to win (such as marine/scv all in which doesn't make for good or entertaining games)
so really it is up for debate wether or not the games are better from a fan's point of view when the pressure has been greatly dropped down
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On September 02 2011 14:31 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:27 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss Oh wow. Clearly I need to watch these games. Was this Assembly? yeah, TB has it on his youtube as "dumbest series ever", the reps are available too
Having just watched the series ... wow. That was some epic match-throwing right there.
I'll have something more intelligent to say on this subject later after my brain has processed those matches.
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The idea of making such agreements is disrespectful to the fans who are the base of the community.
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On September 02 2011 15:08 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 15:00 ArchDC wrote:On September 02 2011 14:53 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 14:49 CoR wrote:
tt1 is the one to blame for me
it sould be good finals and he does 1base carrier and not taking final for real ? that should be never allowed so plz dont allow this kind of match prearangement
@faiyth not match fixing in kind of the normal understanding but still it is. not playing real knowing i get money anyways make not normal result and the match is "fixed" it isn't, results arent decided beforehand, it's like saying IdrA playing on tilt is match fixing because the result of the match shouldn't have gone this way if idra wasn't tilted Fayth, personally I think it is fine between team-mates as the animosity and not helping each other out is bad. However, would you agree that without huge prize money on the line, the games would not be as... impactful? True it is still worth playing for pride, recognition, bragging rights etc., but playing for X amount of $ is just another incentive/push/etc. to bring the most of out a player and the game. I do not think the players play better because X amount of money is involved they do however do whatever they think is the best way to win (such as marine/scv all in which doesn't make for good or entertaining games) so really it is up for debate wether or not the games are better from a fan's point of view when the pressure has been greatly dropped down
If that would be the case people would prefer to watch exhibition matches without money involved. They do not.
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Fans only see the prize and it's kinda sad. First place win x amount 2nd place win y amount. When you're at that point you just want to be the champion.
At the time it was played 1 base carrier wasn't known as bad as it is today even if it never was a good strat and TT1 said it was 2 base carrier. I've seen more ridiculous strats vs teammates so he doesn't expect what you're going to do.
One of the dumbest quote I've seen on TL happened in this thread... We as a community can't accept deal making.
Thanks for the laugh bro. Talk for yourself not for the community.
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EPT
