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Thought exercise: would it be okay if, before the finals, TT1 agreed to give all of his winnings to Fenix no matter what? This seems obviously okay to me, since certainly we cannot stop this behavior (maybe he doesn't even tell Fenix), and yet I think the situation is the same in the important ways because there is no money on the line in the finals, even though spectators think there is.
Swapping %s is only really sketchy when the players are in the same pool IMO, and even then there is really no good solution since you always have the possibility of players throwing games to get their friends/teammates through regardless of money involved.
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On September 02 2011 14:16 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:
late to the thread t.t
deals like this produce different games than would otherwise be played. also as an observer finals become much less interesting when the pressure on the players is gone.
also a lesser but still important idea is if this is somehow ok to do in the finals with 2 people, why is it not ok to do in the semis with 4 or quarters with 8?
i dont see how this could possibly be considered ok
this is kind of tangential but something like this can happen in poker, anyone who's ever played in like the commerce daily tournies knows everyone is itching to chop it up when it gets to the final table and split it 9-ways. i can't really see people agreeing to it tho, as apparently it's hard enough to get one sc2 player to stay true to their word 
any modification of an external factor will impact the games, sure, but that doesn't imply it will make them any worse for the spectator, nor is there any reason the spectator needs to know how the money is handled.
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On September 02 2011 14:18 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:15 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 14:12 enzym wrote:On September 02 2011 14:08 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:00 MudkipSEA` wrote:On September 02 2011 13:46 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 13:38 MudkipSEA` wrote:On September 02 2011 13:29 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 13:27 MudkipSEA` wrote:On September 02 2011 13:16 Arisen wrote:
[quote]
This happens in real sports all the time. Good thing real sports never got taken seriously, then there might be groups of people killing other people over something that happened in a match of two people trying to kick a ball into a net. Well, I don't know what kind of sports you watch. But the point is it is not accepted by the community is it? Tell me how would people feel if all Federer and Nadal decided to split their earnings of all the Grand Slam finals they attended. Would they have this epic rivalry? The point I'm trying to make here is that how can we, as a community accept that they make deals before the tournament. they DEFINITELY would have this epic rivarly, their rivarly goes far beyond prize money No, I'm not implying that the prize money is the most important. BUT, to say that prize money is not one reason to justify their hard work is nonsensical. Then how would they learn a living? Read what I'm trying to notion, and don't pick a sentence out of the point I'm trying to make. Hypothetically, if deal making is the norm in eSports. As a progamer, I would make deals with everyone. And as a spectator/ aspiring player/ a commentator or anyone involved in that sport for that matter, would I be really interested in this sport if I know that they are not really putting in effort to become the best that they can? But rather, choose to earn as much money as possible while putting in the least effort that they need to? Edit: Grammar >< you realize you still have to put a shitton of effort to make it to the finals, and you also need a bit of luck, that said, once they get to the final, prize money gets big enough for most players that they both don't feel like gambling the difference between 1st and 2nd place, cuz really most of the time players in finals are very close in skill level and at this point it's almost only variance From what I'm implying, you're saying that playing in the finals is like gambling. Okie, let's not only talk about the finals then. I decide to make a deal with you on the first round, and you're a better player, loser gets no prize money. How bout that? My point is we, as a community, cannot support deal making. I'm ok with sharing prize money after the tourney, but not before. Edit: I'm not going to reply to you, as I am beating around the leafless bush. why shouldn't a community support lowering the variance of prize distribution? it only helps the players support themselves, and if fayth is right that it's common i don't see anyone complaining about it lowering the quality of games Let's have all tournament organizers band together to provide equal salary to all players and abolish prize winnings for tournaments, then. jesus christ you totally missed the point, this mainly happens between teammates/friends So it is okay to cheapen the tournament if it is between friends, but not between other players? I fail to see the significance of it being between friends here.
it is ok to do so with other players but PLAYERS have to agree to it, and they are much more likely to agree to a deal if they're facing a teammate
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Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently?
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On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently?
don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm...
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What would be the point? You can't force a player to play at their best, get over it.
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How is this any different than "Hey bro, if I win, I'll treat you to a big feast at a fancy restaurant, but if you win, you treat me"
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On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm...
I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D
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On September 02 2011 14:21 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:18 enzym wrote:On September 02 2011 14:15 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 14:12 enzym wrote:On September 02 2011 14:08 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:00 MudkipSEA` wrote:On September 02 2011 13:46 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 13:38 MudkipSEA` wrote:On September 02 2011 13:29 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 13:27 MudkipSEA` wrote:
[quote]
Well, I don't know what kind of sports you watch. But the point is it is not accepted by the community is it? Tell me how would people feel if all Federer and Nadal decided to split their earnings of all the Grand Slam finals they attended. Would they have this epic rivalry?
The point I'm trying to make here is that how can we, as a community accept that they make deals before the tournament. they DEFINITELY would have this epic rivarly, their rivarly goes far beyond prize money No, I'm not implying that the prize money is the most important. BUT, to say that prize money is not one reason to justify their hard work is nonsensical. Then how would they learn a living? Read what I'm trying to notion, and don't pick a sentence out of the point I'm trying to make. Hypothetically, if deal making is the norm in eSports. As a progamer, I would make deals with everyone. And as a spectator/ aspiring player/ a commentator or anyone involved in that sport for that matter, would I be really interested in this sport if I know that they are not really putting in effort to become the best that they can? But rather, choose to earn as much money as possible while putting in the least effort that they need to? Edit: Grammar >< you realize you still have to put a shitton of effort to make it to the finals, and you also need a bit of luck, that said, once they get to the final, prize money gets big enough for most players that they both don't feel like gambling the difference between 1st and 2nd place, cuz really most of the time players in finals are very close in skill level and at this point it's almost only variance From what I'm implying, you're saying that playing in the finals is like gambling. Okie, let's not only talk about the finals then. I decide to make a deal with you on the first round, and you're a better player, loser gets no prize money. How bout that? My point is we, as a community, cannot support deal making. I'm ok with sharing prize money after the tourney, but not before. Edit: I'm not going to reply to you, as I am beating around the leafless bush. why shouldn't a community support lowering the variance of prize distribution? it only helps the players support themselves, and if fayth is right that it's common i don't see anyone complaining about it lowering the quality of games Let's have all tournament organizers band together to provide equal salary to all players and abolish prize winnings for tournaments, then. jesus christ you totally missed the point, this mainly happens between teammates/friends So it is okay to cheapen the tournament if it is between friends, but not between other players? I fail to see the significance of it being between friends here. it is ok to do so with other players but PLAYERS have to agree to it, and they are much more likely to agree to a deal if they're facing a teammate
And I was talking of doing it as a general rule, to obviously any participants would be OK with it. Now do you think that the turnout of these tournaments, the number of viewers etc would be affected by this in any way? Please elaborate.
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On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently?
It's okay because it's metagaming
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On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D
they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss
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On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently?
Haha, yea morality is an issue.
In my own opinion, throwing away matches is not in the name of sportsmanship, and as the community we cannot accept that. While it may be intelligent, it is morally not accepted.
Hey, get back to the topic! ><
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On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss
i think that is 1000000x scummier than two players chopping up 1st/2nd in a tourney fwiw
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On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss i think that is 1000000x scummier than two players chopping up 1st/2nd in a tourney fwiw
If it were me I would have just canceled my expo and rage quit
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Personally I'd said if the winner of the prize money wishes to split his winnings with whoever came 2nd place, its his choice and can do whatever he wants with that money. As long as they are both still competing at their best I don't see a problem with it. People are saying that oh it doesn't matter who wins anymore because of this, but I disagree they will still be competing as hard as they would be because ultimately most players are not playing sc2 for the money and the winning is more important to them.
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On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss
Oh wow. Clearly I need to watch these games. Was this Assembly?
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On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss i think that is 1000000x scummier than two players chopping up 1st/2nd in a tourney fwiw
But if players should do everything they can to win, surely avoiding a player you know to be strong is the correct thing to do. If anyone's to blame it's the tournament format. Remember, don't hate the player, hate the game.
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The OP is not exactly talking about throwing games, but just 2 finalists splitting money so they don't play one match with an enormous payout jump.
They'll still play the match to be the champion, well, it doesn't disturb me.
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On September 02 2011 07:47 babylon wrote:For those not in the know: TT1 and Fenix made a deal that if they got 1st and 2nd at some tournament, they would split the prize winnings. In the finals, TT1 went 1-base carriers and got rolled. Fenix later reneged on the deal and "stole" $2500 from TT1. (Cue some drama about TT1 not wanting to have anything to do with Fenix and Fenix being released from Fnatic because of this entire business.) Another interesting scenario (though not the one that sparked this discussion) involved Sjow and MorroW a while back: Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 05:43 ZAiNs wrote:On September 02 2011 05:41 marttorn wrote:
Reminds me of the time Sjow and MorroW (preeeetty sure it was Sjow yeah) were in some finals and they decided to split winnings. If I remember a million people went crazy on TL and called them match fixers TT;;
just comes to mind I think it was more than that, one of them let the other win because of some super stupid qualification system that would benefit them both if one person one several qualifiers or something like that. EDIT: Yep: So what happened? The event is a set of 18 “LAN” tournaments that will not be streamed. If you win 11 out of the 18, you get a very nice computer. As MorroW and SjoW are the only 2 pros competing, they plan to get to the finals every time. As they are equal in skill level, it is unlikely for one them to go 11 and 18. So they discussed making a pact starting that one will always forfeit; why? Because if they unlock all the prizes both of them can get a 1st place prize pool and come out winners.
pff theyy shoult have kicked fen for that, they should've given him a medal for cheating a cheater. its their own fault making a poor sportsmanship deal, whatever happens that breaks the deal is their owb fault. pity it wasn't mor emoney fen "stole".
a fool and hismoney are soon parted.
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On September 02 2011 14:27 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 14:24 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 benjammin wrote:On September 02 2011 14:21 babylon wrote:
Okay, an interesting topic just cropped up in my head and now I can't quite get rid of it.
If progamers "not playing at their best" is such an issue, then honestly, we should crucify anyone who deliberately throws matches. Let's look at Stork, as an example. If I recall correctly, he threw a game to obtain a position in his group at WCG(?) in order to take the easier road through the brackets, avoiding the players who might knock him out. Is this considered immoral? There's no money involved, but you have a guy throwing games to make it easier for himself, and he's certainly depriving the audience of good matches.
Or we can look at an SC2 example. If StarTale, for instance, is at all smart, they will send out Bomber, who will probably be sniped, and then proceed to throw out a heavy dose of Superstar-caliber players to lose to FXO tonight in order to lock IM out of the playoffs. How moral is this? Does morality even enter into the picture here? Or are these players just playing intelligently? don't forget the stephano/bratok shit storm... I ... actually missed that, but it sounds intriguing. Please enlighten me? :D they both tried to throw a match to avoid playing sen in the next round, which led to a proxy hatch vs BC rush and stephano just leaving the game he was winning so he could get the loss Oh wow. Clearly I need to watch these games. Was this Assembly?
yeah, TB has it on his youtube as "dumbest series ever", the reps are available too
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EPT
