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On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite.
Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you.
1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes.
2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine.
Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim).
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On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long
How are these even remotely arguments?
1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant?
Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think.
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On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim).
Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread).
In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that.
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if Terran was that broken, I wonder what all those european and american terrans are doing. In the WoL terran era right after release, terran was broken and we had both the european and american scene overfloated with terrans of questionable quality. In the WoL zerg era at the end, we had both scene dominated by zerg players. Now we have a handful of korean terrans doing exceptionally well in ONE MONTH and terran is OP. (check winrates before, TvZ was never hugely out of balance).
For me you can nerf widow mines, because they're random as shit. the friendly fire can cost you games as a lucky hit can win them for you.
But this time you would've to come up with a real compensation, not the joke banshee buff we got, when they ruined hellbats. And TvP is just extremely hard to play even without further nerfs. but noone loses a word about that, because hey: Taeja beat an again struggling San at Asus ROG, so terran is fine in the MU I guess.
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On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long
You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran.
WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg.
Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc)
We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran.
The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability.
As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf.
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On August 06 2013 03:07 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 23:54 Decendos wrote:
sadest thing in this thread is the fact that the T players dont even acknowledge that there might be an imbalance to their beloved and oh-so-UP-in-the-end-of-WoL-race. they dont even consider that in fact after being the favored race in TvZ for whole HOTS which is 5 months now with the worst month being july so far that something might be wrong. mostly its really stupid arguments like "sample size too small, wait another 5 months" or its the most stupid argument of all "T players are just better lol".
Actually i think Naruto was one of the few figures to admit imbalance during the 1/1/1 era. No one thinks innovation is massively helped by hellbats and speedvacs? Both of which are frankly some of the most questionable design choices in the game? I mean we've seen him kinda fall off in TvT since the optimal hellbat strategy fell off. Never been sold on him as some sort of pseudo successor to BW flash. Or even the same genius of Rain. He's like MKP of the day.
Innovation is the most skilled player we've ever had in SC2, dunno what you're going on about During July, he was 18-3 in matches. Currently, he has the highest elo ever achieved on aligulac
His TvZ was exceptionally strong in Wings of Liberty, among the best in the world, and the trend continued in HOTS.
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On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think.
I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this.
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ZvT feels like an uphill battle against insurmountable odds for both races. For T, you have to prevent the Z from expanding and rolling you with huge forces with massive massive reinforcements. All your units are very fragile in anything but a straight-up engagement, and it takes forever to rebuild a lost army
For Z every engagement is ridiculously unfair, your units are worse in every way, and even when you win an engagement, it just means T loads up his medivacs and flies away. Trading favorably against widow mines is all but impossible, and your units are all very fragile in a straight-up engagement. Losing a big army battle means you will probably lose the game, and you're constantly getting harassed.
Both sides feel terrible, but I think Z feels more hopeless because there's only two ways to win - a big surprise baneling bust, or a slow economic overtaking - the former being all but impossible past the 15 minute mark. T can win from a favorable engagement, from enough harass damage snowballing into full economic denial, getting ahead on expansions, from a surprise tech, or from following up on a zerg's failed attack. 4 and 5 are likewise only realistic in the first 15 minutes, but there are still more options.
My biggest problems with TvZ are:
1) They all look the same. It's always marines, medivacs, and mines doing the same drops, the same pushes, the same contains, and Z only has two ways to fight it off (roach/ling/bling, muta/ling/bling). How many TvZ do we see wind up with marines running away from banelings as the banes try not to trigger widow mines? Pretty much all of them.
2) Scan cuts out a lot of options for Z. Z can't rely on burrowed banelings, burrowed roach sneak, or burrowed infestor sneak, because those are all one scan away from losing them all with no damage. Likewise, you cannot try to deny detection in a battle, or keep broodlords out of vision while attacking. Denying information is just a mechanic that doesn't reliably exist vs T. Scan does lots of other things, but this is the only one that really takes a part of the game away from the opponent.
I think ZvT is balanced right now, but I also think it's boring to watch and frustrating to play for both sides.
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On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that.
You are crossing the line, stop defend others and stop go offensive on others
You for example called me out as a balance whiner in another thread the other day, talking about me in third person
Which was offtopic
Bad style, unacceptable
Stop!
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On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this.
Yeah but hatch tech Zerg is really light on the gas. The only real gas expenditure is ling speed and maybe a few roaches. Lings, spines, spores and queens are mineral only. Once lair hits, Zerg shoots up to 6-8 gasses so they are hardly starving for gas.
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On August 06 2013 03:35 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Yeah but hatch tech Zerg is really light on the gas. The only real gas expenditure is ling speed and maybe a few roaches. Lings, spines, spores and queens are mineral only. Once lair hits, Zerg shoots up to 6-8 gasses so they are hardly starving for gas.
The important point is that if you can´t get your 4th down you are dead and as terran is really strong at the mid game that makes holding the 4th rather difficult.
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On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this.
Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran.
I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point.
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"light on gas" is no real advantage. It's way more advantagous to have a good use for both rescources. To rely on only one of them is more a drawback. To have 2k gas on the bank it lategame is nothing that makes you feel good. It just proves that the gas heavy units of terran are complete shit, which is nothing else than a big design blunder by Blizzard.
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On August 05 2013 23:45 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 22:49 NarutO wrote:
You keep ignoring my points. I called your post uninformed and dumb because it fucking is. The only reason you call me biased towards Terran is because you cannot stand the more worthy opinion/analyses of a higher level player. Why dont I call out others on that the same way I do with you?
Sorry to say but I dont hate at all but you simply overdo it. I Could break that game down for you to the smallest detail and in the end you would say terran op. Like LSN tells us what innovation was doing wasnt impressive. Perfect control and multitasking but for a simple mind it sure looks like nothing impressive. Okay, my posts are uninformed and dumb because I don't see things your way through your Terran-colored lens. No, that's not the reason I call you biased toward Terran. You simply ignore the fact that Terran is superior in TvZ, and you disregard Terran cost effiency and winrates. You ignore all data and winrates until you land on one that makes TvZ look as balanced as possible, which turned out to be 32-24. And then we point out that even that number is not balanced, its 62% and then you blame the sample size afterwards. Just the stuff you do, it's incredibly one-sided and you choose to ignore anything that makes your race look in a bad light. I mean, what kind of guy says 32-24 is balanced? Anyway, the way you rage at me because I missed your discussion earlier, just shows what kind of classy "high level player" you are. Level doesn't always correspond with legit analysis. Some high level players might be inclined to support broken things just because its their race. For example, Flash supported the idea of tanks becoming 2 supply. He's Flash, who has better analysis than probably everyone on this thread, but on the other hand, he has a motive to support things that would better Terran. Just using this as an analogy out there. EDIT: Imagine if Tanks DID become 2 supply. Shudder...I don't even wanna think about that.
You say he ignores winrates and he is biased. There are 2 sources for statistics right now, aligulac and chaosterran. According to aligulac the game is well balanced and zerg is improving in ZvT with each passing month. So I assume you aren't using these statistics because they don't support your argument. Therefore I assume you are using chaosterran's statistics that shows TvZ is in favor of terran. This is where your extreme bias shows though. Last month when chaosterran posted the statistics and they showed ZvT was actually in favor of zerg this was your reply.
On July 01 2013 21:35 GhostOwl wrote:
I don't trust this data, especially from a guy called "ChaosTerran", no offense.
HoTS has messed up balance heavily...and it's currently a big mess right now.
So when the statistics show that the matchup is fine you don't trust the data but when it shows terran is favored that same data is perfectly fine. So for you to call anyone biased is extremely laughable.
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On August 06 2013 03:33 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that. You are crossing the line, stop defend others and stop go offensive on others You for example called me out as a balance whiner in another thread the other day, talking about me in third person Which was offtopic Bad style, unacceptable Stop!
I can barely understand you. I think you're trying to find some weird "hypocricy" argument in this. But no-one else knows the hell you are talking about. And the comment you made in the other thread was balance whining in itself, so all I had to do was to make it explicit so no-one else would take the bait. And it worked. Your response to that was to immediately get yourself temp banned...
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On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point.
The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally.
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On August 06 2013 03:44 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:33 Foxxan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that. You are crossing the line, stop defend others and stop go offensive on others You for example called me out as a balance whiner in another thread the other day, talking about me in third person Which was offtopic Bad style, unacceptable Stop! I can barely understand you. I think you're trying to find some weird "hypocricy" argument in this. But no-one else knows the hell you are talking about. And the comment you made in the other thread was balance whining in itself, so all I had to do was to make it explicit so no-one else would take the bait. And it worked. Your response to that was to immediately get yourself temp banned...
You are so weird, do not talk about me like that again, its patehtic
edit: It was not balance whining, it didnt have anything to do with balance at all and yet u called out on me just like that in another thread
And you defend yourself, its pathetic to talk about someone in third person view just because u have some emotions u reallyneed to express, well i dont like it and u are overboard with defending and offensing people
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On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:
[quote]
your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally.
Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right?
Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba?
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On August 05 2013 23:54 Decendos wrote:
sadest thing in this thread is the fact that the T players dont even acknowledge that there might be an imbalance to their beloved and oh-so-UP-in-the-end-of-WoL-race. they dont even consider that in fact after being the favored race in TvZ for whole HOTS which is 5 months now with the worst month being july so far that something might be wrong. mostly its really stupid arguments like "sample size too small, wait another 5 months" or its the most stupid argument of all "T players are just better lol".
would love to hear some non-biased T that at least acknowledges that indeed T might be broken in TvZ or looking at the latest winrates PvZ and TvZ that not T is OP in TvZ buf Z is just UP overall and has to either do all ins in TvZ to have at least some % winrate or has to go SH turtle in PvZ.
Look at WCS Europe, 4 Terrans Left, 4 Z left, 8 protoss. 2 Terrans are Korean. So we have 2 Terrans in Europe that are decent. How can you conclude its overpowered? Only KR terrans utilize the uber high potential Terran race have, 0,0001% of all players can do that. You barely EVER see foreign Terrans coming far in tournaments.
Its beyond me how people can constantly whine on forums for Terran buffs. We just got nerfed if you didnt notice. Is there something in the game that is too strong its Nexus cannons, most boring shit in the game. Makes P immune for 10 minutes.
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On August 06 2013 03:52 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:33 Foxxan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:
[quote]
your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that. You are crossing the line, stop defend others and stop go offensive on others You for example called me out as a balance whiner in another thread the other day, talking about me in third person Which was offtopic Bad style, unacceptable Stop! I can barely understand you. I think you're trying to find some weird "hypocricy" argument in this. But no-one else knows the hell you are talking about. And the comment you made in the other thread was balance whining in itself, so all I had to do was to make it explicit so no-one else would take the bait. And it worked. Your response to that was to immediately get yourself temp banned... You are so weird, do not talk about me like that again, its patehtic
Calling me pathetic (mind the spelling) got you temp banned the last time too.
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EPT
