|
On August 05 2013 22:49 NarutO wrote:
You keep ignoring my points. I called your post uninformed and dumb because it fucking is. The only reason you call me biased towards Terran is because you cannot stand the more worthy opinion/analyses of a higher level player. Why dont I call out others on that the same way I do with you?
Sorry to say but I dont hate at all but you simply overdo it. I Could break that game down for you to the smallest detail and in the end you would say terran op. Like LSN tells us what innovation was doing wasnt impressive. Perfect control and multitasking but for a simple mind it sure looks like nothing impressive.
Okay, my posts are uninformed and dumb because I don't see things your way through your Terran-colored lens. No, that's not the reason I call you biased toward Terran. You simply ignore the fact that Terran is superior in TvZ, and you disregard Terran cost effiency and winrates. You ignore all data and winrates until you land on one that makes TvZ look as balanced as possible, which turned out to be 32-24. And then we point out that even that number is not balanced, its 62% and then you blame the sample size afterwards. Just the stuff you do, it's incredibly one-sided and you choose to ignore anything that makes your race look in a bad light. I mean, what kind of guy says 32-24 is balanced? Anyway, the way you rage at me because I missed your discussion earlier, just shows what kind of classy "high level player" you are.
Level doesn't always correspond with legit analysis. Some high level players might be inclined to support broken things just because its their race. For example, Flash supported the idea of tanks becoming 2 supply. He's Flash, who has better analysis than probably everyone on this thread, but on the other hand, he has a motive to support things that would better Terran. Just using this as an analogy out there.
EDIT: Imagine if Tanks DID become 2 supply. Shudder...I don't even wanna think about that.
|
sadest thing in this thread is the fact that the T players dont even acknowledge that there might be an imbalance to their beloved and oh-so-UP-in-the-end-of-WoL-race. they dont even consider that in fact after being the favored race in TvZ for whole HOTS which is 5 months now with the worst month being july so far that something might be wrong. mostly its really stupid arguments like "sample size too small, wait another 5 months" or its the most stupid argument of all "T players are just better lol".
would love to hear some non-biased T that at least acknowledges that indeed T might be broken in TvZ or looking at the latest winrates PvZ and TvZ that not T is OP in TvZ buf Z is just UP overall and has to either do all ins in TvZ to have at least some % winrate or has to go SH turtle in PvZ.
|
On August 05 2013 23:54 Decendos wrote:
favored race in TvZ for whole HOTS which is 5 months now with the worst month being july so far
Can you point out source of this
|
On August 05 2013 23:54 Decendos wrote:
sadest thing in this thread is the fact that the T players dont even acknowledge that there might be an imbalance to their beloved and oh-so-UP-in-the-end-of-WoL-race. they dont even consider that in fact after being the favored race in TvZ for whole HOTS which is 5 months now with the worst month being july so far that something might be wrong. mostly its really stupid arguments like "sample size too small, wait another 5 months" or its the most stupid argument of all "T players are just better lol".
would love to hear some non-biased T that at least acknowledges that indeed T might be broken in TvZ or looking at the latest winrates PvZ and TvZ that not T is OP in TvZ buf Z is just UP overall and has to either do all ins in TvZ to have at least some % winrate or has to go SH turtle in PvZ.
I am biased when I say I believe Flash and INnoVation are outstanding in TvZ? INnoVation performs just as well against Protoss, is TvP broken as well? Maybe, but just maybe Zerg whiners should look into more than just the winrate, but also where do the wins come from.
I have mentioned it previously and I will mention it once last time: Why do Terrans not rise on all levels and why do they not rule supreme on the highest level? WCG qualifier showed that they don't. Plenty of Terrans died to Zergs so I ask you guys why is that?
@GhostOwl, I called your analysis dumb and informed, because you are wrong with what you wrote. I am not biased as I simply want a balanced game where you can show skill and win with it, if it was for me I would crush Starcraft 2 and put all the money in Broodwar, because its the superior game but thats not like it goes. I pointed out mistakes of Soulkey and asked you if you really saw no flaw and no mistake in his play, you simply chose to ignore the point (again). So I ask you again -> don't you see mistakes in SoulKey vs INnoVation that led to his defeat? Do you really believe his loss came from nothing but Terran being the superior race?
|
Self-moderated, bad post sry.
|
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now.
|
On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now.
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother?
|
On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother?
your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine.
|
On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother?
your arguments don't draw the whole picture. Most of them are neatly picked to support your theory that terran is balanced.
it was always like that, even in WoL when terran got nerfed many times you were telling terran was totally ok. I haven't seen more biased person than you in my life. I'd be cool with that but you want people to agree with you, if they don't you call them dumb and behave like a big child.
|
On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine.
Win rates for these qualifiers:
PvT
59–40 (60%)
PvZ
53–53 (50%)
TvZ
47–46 (51%)
10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague.
And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say.
|
On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say.
Soulkey plays Supernova tonight. Let's see how he does when he's not playing vs someone who was 4-0 vs him even in Wings of Liberty (Innovation).
And Ghostowl, you say Terran has had higher winrate vs Zerg for all of HOTS, and that can only be concluded from aligulac.
http://www.aligulac.com/reports/ . Which does not support your claims for imbalance, actually the opposite.
|
On August 05 2013 22:28 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 15:12 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. I went through the game and put time into it to explain , as well as did others. If you don't want to listen or have a discussion why are you here? You simply choose to go over my post and whine (once again) like LSN. You are uninformed, dumb and your understanding of the game is so lacking, that I cannot believe you even noticed that the Terran lost workers in the first place. Are you actually interested in having a balanced game that requires skill from both parties to win or are you simply here to QQ about the currently best player in the world? Your uninformed bullshit is staggering, but what about this: Go ahead and try to explain to me why SoulKey might have lost that game on reasonable facts but not balance QQ. Are you going to bitch everytime I talk about a game that I missed because as I explained, I was too busy to watch it earlier? I said I JUST watched the game, do you expect me to pay attention to every post of this thread when this thread gets 3 new pages per day? You just call me dumb and uninformed because I didn't reply to your post about this game for the reason that I didn't reply to your posts about this game when a) I didn't watch it earlier b) it's hard to catch every single post of this thread. Your post is full of hate and attacks, I tried to report it but someone else already did.
Calling people dumb is rude and bad form. Calling them biased is bad for another reason, you should respond to the arguments and not the people.
As for your points, as others have already pointed out, Innovation plays incredible games and beats pretty much anyone that isn't Maru convincingly. (Basically, unless he gets cheesed out, he's a massive favourite against everyone on the planet, including Flash, SK and Rain).
And perhaps, all of you Saddaromma's Descendo's and GhostOwl's out there should accept that the reason why all these terran players, and P players, and random players and game balancers like David Kim seem so terribly biased to you is that you're so far down the spectrum of reasonable balance that everyone seems to favour T over Z in your eyes. As for bad-mouthing NarutO as biased, I'd like to point out that you can check his post history. Prove that there's historical bias. I think you'll be surprised.
Look outside of this thread and among the three-four of you (is LSN permabanned yet?), does anyone else agree that TvZ is broken? No. There's some variation in TvZ winrates (one month Aligulac is terran favoured, another it's balanced, same for Korean TLPD), and some tournaments are won by a Z, others are won by a T. Yet you cherry pick data and look at minuscule data (10-6 - REALLY?! 2 more wins by a Z and it's perfectly balanced 50-50. That shows less than nothing, it shows that you're willing to grab hold of any data, no matter how useless, as long as it proves your point.)
|
On August 06 2013 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 22:28 GhostOwl wrote:On August 05 2013 15:12 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. I went through the game and put time into it to explain , as well as did others. If you don't want to listen or have a discussion why are you here? You simply choose to go over my post and whine (once again) like LSN. You are uninformed, dumb and your understanding of the game is so lacking, that I cannot believe you even noticed that the Terran lost workers in the first place. Are you actually interested in having a balanced game that requires skill from both parties to win or are you simply here to QQ about the currently best player in the world? Your uninformed bullshit is staggering, but what about this: Go ahead and try to explain to me why SoulKey might have lost that game on reasonable facts but not balance QQ. Are you going to bitch everytime I talk about a game that I missed because as I explained, I was too busy to watch it earlier? I said I JUST watched the game, do you expect me to pay attention to every post of this thread when this thread gets 3 new pages per day? You just call me dumb and uninformed because I didn't reply to your post about this game for the reason that I didn't reply to your posts about this game when a) I didn't watch it earlier b) it's hard to catch every single post of this thread. Your post is full of hate and attacks, I tried to report it but someone else already did. Look outside of this thread and among the three-four of you (is LSN permabanned yet?), does anyone else agree that TvZ is broken? No.
So you represent rest of the world apparently. I deleted rest of your post, because this claim is beyond ridiculous.
EDIT: as a matter of fact I never said terran op. I just stated that I don't like how TvZ works now. Since its roach/bane allin vs 3-3 MMM. its kinda balanced 50/50. But matchup looks horrible and I want some changes. Instead I get flamed for whining. Thats why I call you biased. Because you pick terran-side eventhough I'm not saying terran op.
|
On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say.
where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea.
On August 06 2013 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 22:28 GhostOwl wrote:On August 05 2013 15:12 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. I went through the game and put time into it to explain , as well as did others. If you don't want to listen or have a discussion why are you here? You simply choose to go over my post and whine (once again) like LSN. You are uninformed, dumb and your understanding of the game is so lacking, that I cannot believe you even noticed that the Terran lost workers in the first place. Are you actually interested in having a balanced game that requires skill from both parties to win or are you simply here to QQ about the currently best player in the world? Your uninformed bullshit is staggering, but what about this: Go ahead and try to explain to me why SoulKey might have lost that game on reasonable facts but not balance QQ. Are you going to bitch everytime I talk about a game that I missed because as I explained, I was too busy to watch it earlier? I said I JUST watched the game, do you expect me to pay attention to every post of this thread when this thread gets 3 new pages per day? You just call me dumb and uninformed because I didn't reply to your post about this game for the reason that I didn't reply to your posts about this game when a) I didn't watch it earlier b) it's hard to catch every single post of this thread. Your post is full of hate and attacks, I tried to report it but someone else already did. Calling people dumb is rude and bad form. Calling them biased is bad for another reason, you should respond to the arguments and not the people. As for your points, as others have already pointed out, Innovation plays incredible games and beats pretty much anyone that isn't Maru convincingly. (Basically, unless he gets cheesed out, he's a massive favourite against everyone on the planet, including Flash, SK and Rain). And perhaps, all of you Saddaromma's Descendo's and GhostOwl's out there should accept that the reason why all these terran players, and P players, and random players and game balancers like David Kim seem so terribly biased to you is that you're so far down the spectrum of reasonable balance that everyone seems to favour T over Z in your eyes. As for bad-mouthing NarutO as biased, I'd like to point out that you can check his post history. Prove that there's historical bias. I think you'll be surprised. Look outside of this thread and among the three-four of you (is LSN permabanned yet?), does anyone else agree that TvZ is broken? No. There's some variation in TvZ winrates (one month Aligulac is terran favoured, another it's balanced, same for Korean TLPD), and some tournaments are won by a Z, others are won by a T. Yet you cherry pick data and look at minuscule data (10-6 - REALLY?! 2 more wins by a Z and it's perfectly balanced 50-50. That shows less than nothing, it shows that you're willing to grab hold of any data, no matter how useless, as long as it proves your point.)
maybe you should read my post. it was an answer on his "WCG lately was fine" and i said its 10:6 which doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it definetly doesnt prove it was fine. doing a huge post about bad mouthing etc. but not even correctly reading and quoting...well...
|
On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea.
WCG KOREA QUALIFIER.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422817¤tpage=8#149
|
On August 05 2013 23:45 GhostOwl wrote:
EDIT: Imagine if Tanks DID become 2 supply. Shudder...I don't even wanna think about that.
Yep, it would be such a shame if Tanks had a chance to become relevant again outside of TvT!
On August 05 2013 23:54 Decendos wrote:
sadest thing in this thread is the fact that the T players dont even acknowledge that there might be an imbalance to their beloved and oh-so-UP-in-the-end-of-WoL-race. they dont even consider that in fact after being the favored race in TvZ for whole HOTS which is 5 months now with the worst month being july so far that something might be wrong. mostly its really stupid arguments like "sample size too small, wait another 5 months" or its the most stupid argument of all "T players are just better lol".
would love to hear some non-biased T that at least acknowledges that indeed T might be broken in TvZ or looking at the latest winrates PvZ and TvZ that not T is OP in TvZ buf Z is just UP overall and has to either do all ins in TvZ to have at least some % winrate or has to go SH turtle in PvZ.
Saddest thing in this thread is the absurd amount of Zerg propaganda. We regularly read preposterous statements such as:
- "Mines take zero skill to use": why did we all had the opportunity to laugh at this, then?
- "4M is always efficient against lings/banes/mutas": why don't you explain us why Bomber's TvZ, for instance, is two leagues below Bogus' one? Or could it be that even some long-time Code S Terrans don't have the necessary micro to extract the very best of their units—which, may I remind you, don't auto-split, don't auto-position and don't auto-lift circled bio into auto-boosting away?
- "You're forced into mutas because of drops" (as if you could send 10-30 supply of your outnumbered army when a Roach timing, automatically 40-50 supply ahead of you, is about to hit...): HyuN played many TvZ on lings/banes/roaches, YuGiOh played lings/banes/roaches/infests/corruptors vs MMA on Whirlwind and did fine for most of the game, TLO rushed Hive and ultras vs TaeJa at the last ASUS ROG, Tefel is competitive against Mvp playing Roaches timings into whatever.
At any rate, you want us to believe that Zerg, the only race being able to saturate a fourth mineral line (= excess of minerals you can then invest in spines/spores), the race with the best static defence in the game, the race with amazing map vision thanks to creep/Overlords, is completely unable to deal with drops without mutas?
No sensible discussion can occur when people who complain don't even know their own race, and on top of that pretend to discuss the other one resorting to pathetic 2010 clichés such as "MULEs OP, trading minerals vs gas, blabla" and other nonsense, while completely ignoring how insanely demanding 4M is for Terran because, of course, they have zero experience in playing Terran at high level.
|
On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422817¤tpage=8#149
sorry my bad, didnt watch the group, was hidden on liquipeda 
|
On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER.
What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data.
Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite.
|
On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite.
okay here are the arguments...once again:
- you have to go mutas or die
- WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas
- Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in
- TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available)
- MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die
- 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long
|
On August 05 2013 23:54 Decendos wrote:
sadest thing in this thread is the fact that the T players dont even acknowledge that there might be an imbalance to their beloved and oh-so-UP-in-the-end-of-WoL-race. they dont even consider that in fact after being the favored race in TvZ for whole HOTS which is 5 months now with the worst month being july so far that something might be wrong. mostly its really stupid arguments like "sample size too small, wait another 5 months" or its the most stupid argument of all "T players are just better lol".
Actually i think Naruto was one of the few figures to admit imbalance during the 1/1/1 era.
No one thinks innovation is massively helped by hellbats and speedvacs? Both of which are frankly some of the most questionable design choices in the game?
I mean we've seen him kinda fall off in TvT since the optimal hellbat strategy fell off. Never been sold on him as some sort of pseudo successor to BW flash. Or even the same genius of Rain. He's like MKP of the day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
