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On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:
So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still).
Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back...
How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit.
yeah, that's what I have posted on numerous occations as well. But I think the range reduction should be an absolute number. Like, 60% range reduction on marines means -3 which leaves them at 2range. Which means that a sourrounded marine ball will still have full firepower. Meanwhile a tank with only 5range is still laughable, especially as it has a minimum range as well.
I think the way to go would be a -4 or -5range (with a minimum of 0.25 range of course, so every unit can still fight in melee range) with a 3radius and increased 125 energy cost (to prevent carpet blinding with the 3radius). Unstackable.
That (hopefully) would cause units like marines, stalkers, roaches, hydras, marauders, hellions, hellbats, stationary defenses to fight in melee or close to melee range, while artillery units like tanks, thors (antiair) and colossi could still shoot from behind - for those kind of units there is abdcut on the viper.
As a comparison for how much 3radius can catch, time warp has a radius of 3.5 (though it is hard to compare, as the slow makes it hard to dodge time warps, while you can run full speed through blinding clouds).
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On August 05 2013 17:59 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:
So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still).
Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back...
How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. We have the same thinking pattern. At first I was thinking that it just sticks to units but that would be another 'no micro' spell and would only leave the chance to retreat. On the other hand, I was thinking that you could decrease the range of units. It would allow Terran to decide either to still take the fight or to dodge the clouds. Mech would be stronger as you can still fire.
well that will fix it vs mech....bio still just walks out of the cloud and thats just nor worth it for 200 gas and 3 supply at hive tech. they have to buff cloud vs bio or mobile armies in general (roaches hydra, stalker, bio) and nerf it vs mech. maybe reduce range by 6 or so but increase cloud radius.
make it stick to units for a small amount of time would definetly be the "easiest" fix but would take away the "space control" affect which is nice. but as somebody said blizz will probably just increase radius and add "duration halfed for mech units"
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On August 05 2013 18:56 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 17:59 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:
So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still).
Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back...
How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. We have the same thinking pattern. At first I was thinking that it just sticks to units but that would be another 'no micro' spell and would only leave the chance to retreat. On the other hand, I was thinking that you could decrease the range of units. It would allow Terran to decide either to still take the fight or to dodge the clouds. Mech would be stronger as you can still fire. well that will fix it vs mech....bio still just walks out of the cloud and thats just nor worth it for 200 gas and 3 supply at hive tech. they have to buff cloud vs bio or mobile armies in general (roaches hydra, stalker, bio) and nerf it vs mech. maybe reduce range by 6 or so but increase cloud radius. make it stick to units for a small amount of time would definetly be the "easiest" fix but would take away the "space control" affect which is nice. but as somebody said blizz will probably just increase radius and add "duration halfed for mech units"
How do you half the duration for mech units? The cloud affects an area for 14seconds. Does the cloud go away after 7seconds if mech units are standing under it???
I think the most likely approach from blizzard would be that they change widow mine damage back from spell damage (noone uses mech against Protoss anyways, the only reason for that kind of damage is immortals) to a normal attack. Then the blinding cloud affects it too, Terrans will whine that mines got nerfed, blizzard will argue that mines now get upgrades as well, zergs will whine that upgraded mines now rape ultralisks,broodlords and roach/hydra (upgrade damage would be +12 with +4 vs shields per upgrade) and everybody will be pissed. Sounds like blizzard? 
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Regarding that Soulkey vs Innovation game ... I was pretty sad to see SK lose again after playing so much better than the next best Zerg, but for now it seems Innovation won that game fair and square. SK was doing almost everything right except flanking and extending the purpose of his early burrow upgrade (Burrowed banelings, burrowing+unburrowing ling counter attacks). Those engagements down the ramp at his fourth were simply awful for him.
The thing that's dismaying for Zerg (at least for, playing both sides of the MU) is that Innovation didn't really change his overall gameplan after losing 40+ workers. He made several brilliant adjustments, and he reacted to it excellently, but you kill 40 workers any of the other races they make serious alterations; -40 drones vs Terran for a Zerg either means an all-in or falling back into an extreme lean composition, either threatening base trades or playing defensively and praying for a perfect engagement. Innovation made his adjustments and I think his timing was a little late (?) but it was the same composition of units and the same game plan. That doesn't necessarily mean the game is imbalanced, but it seems really hard for Zerg to do anything to control the pace of the game, or force his opponent to react to him in a big way.
I might also be flat out wrong about that. I play pretty casually so my game understanding isn't so good.
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On August 05 2013 17:22 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 17:18 Big J wrote:On August 05 2013 17:06 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 17:02 Big J wrote:On August 05 2013 16:51 NarutO wrote:
As for races being different: If Terran hits a timing on Zerg and trades units even cost-efficiently, Zerg can drone up behind it (after it) because there is no chance for Terran to hit a strong timing behind it again. We can produce units while doing the timing, but our units scale a lot so 30 marines is a million times better than 15 marines. If your timing does a lot of damage in economy Zerg can still drone up after the timing, because as I said Terran cannot hit 2 base timings with huge followup pushes. Most likely you will be behind, but the game isn't done. That used to be true because Infestors regenerated energy and bought time. The current builds however mean that a Terran will be back with 30more marines a minute later and you have to produce ling/baneling constantly to stay alive. You can't drone up behind against the standard 3CC mass rax pushgalore, as a Terran has the same production as you have, but you don't have powerunits that trade costefficiently until ultras are out. I did especially write '2 base timing' as its the equivalent to what SoulKey did, just that Zergs pushes usually hit with 3 instead of 2 bases. A Terran 3-base push is not a real timing that you hit, its simply putting pressure / macro game. You do not sacrifice your economy but build it up before pushing. An equal style would be 4 base Zerg with ling/muta/bane. The difference is, Zerg has many variations of it. Terran really hasn't that much stuff to do besides marine/hellion or marine/mine timing on 2 base. Maybe hellbat/marauder pre-patch or marauder/hellion. Zergs can try 2 base spire (even though I feel that sucks) 2 base roach timings etc. So I wasn't saying you should drone against a mineparade. oh, sorry. Missunderstood that. I thought the 2 base timing thing was just an addendum to the above where you talk generally about timings. Not gonna talk about the "who has better timing things". It's not fruitful and each side will deny the viability of timing X and Y "because it relies on mistake Z". Timings always rely on mistakes, from both perspectives. In addition to that, it also depends on how its executed. So yeah, I guess we can agree that both races have their options. May I ask the Zerg users why they don't try a roach style or even roach/hydra against biomine? To me it looks like Biomine>Muta/Ling/Bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, I guess slightly favored towards Terran if he's good) Biomine<Roach/HydraMarine/Tank>Roach/Hydra Marine/Tank<Muta/ling/bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, slightly favored towards good Zergs since HotS)
I don't really agrees with the bold part, roach hydra can do okay against bio/mine for sure, but first it's a map dependant composition, kind of like mech in WoL ZvT. The second issue is that it's really good in small engagement, but the longer the game is the worst it gets, a max bio army 3/3 destroy a max roach hydra (since both are 2 supply units) and it doesn't transition well to T3 unit. Last point, I don't think it's that hard to go from bio+mines into bio+tanks as soon as you scout the hydra den, or even just an odd number of roach.
It's absolutely not a bad composition itself but it can't really become a standard, it's a nice style to have in your bag that pro can do once in a best of 5 for example, it would work great on the ladder for sure, but a pro doing roach hydra on a regular basis would be figured out and blind counter hardcore.
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On August 05 2013 17:59 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:
So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still).
Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back...
How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. We have the same thinking pattern. At first I was thinking that it just sticks to units but that would be another 'no micro' spell and would only leave the chance to retreat. On the other hand, I was thinking that you could decrease the range of units. It would allow Terran to decide either to still take the fight or to dodge the clouds. Mech would be stronger as you can still fire.
I'd prefer going back to the alpha version of blinding cloud, 2.5 radious vs bio and letting mech recover in TvZ. As it is, blinding cloud and is just too good vs tanks and redundant with abduct.
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On August 05 2013 20:17 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 17:59 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:
So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still).
Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back...
How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. We have the same thinking pattern. At first I was thinking that it just sticks to units but that would be another 'no micro' spell and would only leave the chance to retreat. On the other hand, I was thinking that you could decrease the range of units. It would allow Terran to decide either to still take the fight or to dodge the clouds. Mech would be stronger as you can still fire. I'd prefer going back to the alpha version of blinding cloud, 2.5 radious vs bio and letting mech recover in TvZ. As it is, blinding cloud and is just too good vs tanks and redundant with abduct.
if you do that Z is forced to go roach hydra all ins once again or...which is much worse...go mass static defense SHs viper since roach hydra would be unable to ever fight 8+ tanks without cloud.
you dont have to completely remove the cloud to make mech viable. just make it better vs mobile armies and worse vs mech.
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On August 05 2013 20:31 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 20:17 MoonCricket wrote:On August 05 2013 17:59 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:
So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still).
Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back...
How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. We have the same thinking pattern. At first I was thinking that it just sticks to units but that would be another 'no micro' spell and would only leave the chance to retreat. On the other hand, I was thinking that you could decrease the range of units. It would allow Terran to decide either to still take the fight or to dodge the clouds. Mech would be stronger as you can still fire. I'd prefer going back to the alpha version of blinding cloud, 2.5 radious vs bio and letting mech recover in TvZ. As it is, blinding cloud and is just too good vs tanks and redundant with abduct. if you do that Z is forced to go roach hydra all ins once again or...which is much worse...go mass static defense SHs viper since roach hydra would be unable to ever fight 8+ tanks without cloud. you dont have to completely remove the cloud to make mech viable. just make it better vs mobile armies and worse vs mech.
Thats exactly what its doing though. Making bio units melee range "auto" pilots the units out of the cloud..
So in fact if binding cloud with a larger radius just halves the unit range, this could potentially fix the issue of rendering tanks totally useless while having the bio player to actually move the units as they will all be attacking within the cloud instead of rushing toward lings which infact makes them run out of the clouds.
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I find ZvP even worse than TvZ, it's so frustrating that you can only go for cheese or all ins if you don't want to SH turtle. There's nothing else that can beat a high tech toss army in the late game.
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On August 05 2013 22:16 Dwayn wrote:
I find ZvP even worse than TvZ, it's so frustrating that you can only go for cheese or all ins if you don't want to SH turtle. There's nothing else that can beat a high tech toss army in the late game.
Depends how many air units the toss player includes tbh
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On August 05 2013 22:16 Dwayn wrote:
I find ZvP even worse than TvZ, it's so frustrating that you can only go for cheese or all ins if you don't want to SH turtle. There's nothing else that can beat a high tech toss army in the late game.
mutas are pretty good, melee upgrade styles with fast ultras can work, though I wouldn't recommend anybody to do them.
Broodlords are pretty good if he isn't going air. You just can't play sitback maxout, but with mutas, lings, roach/hydra, viper and swarmhosts in the midgame you have quite a lot of good tools to force an active game. Unless you play Akilon of course, but that's just that map lending itself towards turtlefests.
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On August 05 2013 15:12 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. I went through the game and put time into it to explain , as well as did others. If you don't want to listen or have a discussion why are you here? You simply choose to go over my post and whine (once again) like LSN. You are uninformed, dumb and your understanding of the game is so lacking, that I cannot believe you even noticed that the Terran lost workers in the first place. Are you actually interested in having a balanced game that requires skill from both parties to win or are you simply here to QQ about the currently best player in the world? Your uninformed bullshit is staggering, but what about this: Go ahead and try to explain to me why SoulKey might have lost that game on reasonable facts but not balance QQ.
Are you going to bitch everytime I talk about a game that I missed because as I explained, I was too busy to watch it earlier? I said I JUST watched the game, do you expect me to pay attention to every post of this thread when this thread gets 3 new pages per day?
You just call me dumb and uninformed because I didn't reply to your post about this game for the reason that I didn't reply to your posts about this game when a) I didn't watch it earlier b) it's hard to catch every single post of this thread.
Your post is full of hate and attacks, I tried to report it but someone else already did.
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[BReportgust 05 2013 22:28 GhostOwl wrote: Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 15:12 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. I went through the game and put time into it to explain , as well as did others. If you don't want to listen or have a discussion why are you here? You simply choose to go over my post and whine (once again) like LSN. You are uninformed, dumb and your understanding of the game is so lacking, that I cannot believe you even noticed that the Terran lost workers in the first place. Are you actually interested in having a balanced game that requires skill from both parties to win or are you simply here to QQ about the currently best player in the world? Your uninformed bullshit is staggering, but what about this: Go ahead and try to explain to me why SoulKey might have lost that game on reasonable facts but not balance QQ. Are you going to bitch everytime I talk about a game that I missed because as I explained, I was too busy to watch it earlier? I said I JUST watched the game, do you expect me to pay attention to every post of this thread when this thread gets 3 new pages per day? You just call me dumb and uninformed because I didn't reply to your post about this game for the reason that I didn't reply to your posts about this game when a) I didn't watch it earlier b) it's hard to catch every single post of this thread. Your post is full of hate and attacks, I tried to report it but someone else already did.
What about an actual approach to analyze the game? Instead of the balance qq? Do you really not see mistakes severe enough to lose the game?
You can report it all day long the fact that it points out your balance whines and dumb posting history doesnt make it full of hate. The fact that you feel offended by it merely shows that its true. You should try reading your own biased posts
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For Vipers, couldn't they also make it so that shots miss a percentage of the time, and then make it so that tanks miss a smaller percentage of their shots?
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On August 05 2013 22:35 CrueltY wrote:
For Vipers, couldn't they also make it so that shots miss a percentage of the time, and then make it so that tanks miss a smaller percentage of their shots?
I don't think they (nor do I) like miss percentages.
Also the thing is not that tanks should just be less effected from blinding cloud. The problem is that with the current design of the spell it basically only affects (and then completely shuts down) slow and stationary units, everything else will dodge it (often even on their own).
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On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point.
As long as Inject Larvae and Warp Gate also get increased energy cost and cooldowns an increase in cost for the MULE is acceptable. The MULE is the one thing which makes up for the far more powerful production speed boost mechanics of Zerg and Protoss. Terrans NEED IT to build lots of structured to produce stuff from ... and if players keep on attacking the SCVs instead of the production they will keep on losing.
There are several ways to win in SC2:
- stifle the enemy's economy
- stifle his production capability
- directly overwhelm the enemy army
The second path usually gets ignored, but the fact that Terrans really need those tech labs and reactors and that they have rather low hp, should make the tactic clear. Terran isnt limited by mineral income at all due to the MULE. The need to build a lot of buildings in sensible spots (where the units you produce can get to the front easily) does open up such a vulnerability.
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On August 05 2013 22:33 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +[BReportgust 05 2013 22:28 GhostOwl wrote: On August 05 2013 15:12 NarutO wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. I went through the game and put time into it to explain , as well as did others. If you don't want to listen or have a discussion why are you here? You simply choose to go over my post and whine (once again) like LSN. You are uninformed, dumb and your understanding of the game is so lacking, that I cannot believe you even noticed that the Terran lost workers in the first place. Are you actually interested in having a balanced game that requires skill from both parties to win or are you simply here to QQ about the currently best player in the world? Your uninformed bullshit is staggering, but what about this: Go ahead and try to explain to me why SoulKey might have lost that game on reasonable facts but not balance QQ. Are you going to bitch everytime I talk about a game that I missed because as I explained, I was too busy to watch it earlier? I said I JUST watched the game, do you expect me to pay attention to every post of this thread when this thread gets 3 new pages per day? You just call me dumb and uninformed because I didn't reply to your post about this game for the reason that I didn't reply to your posts about this game when a) I didn't watch it earlier b) it's hard to catch every single post of this thread. Your post is full of hate and attacks, I tried to report it but someone else already did. What about an actual approach to analyze the game? Instead of the balance qq? Do you really not see mistakes severe enough to lose the game? You can report it all day long the fact that it points out your balance whines and dumb posting history doesnt make it full of hate. The fact that you feel offended by it merely shows that its true. You should try reading your own biased posts [/B]
I did post what I thought about the game, and you just call me dumb, uninformed, and raged at me because I missed your post explaining about it.
You seriously need to calm the fuck down. I can't catch every single post on this thread after a game gets released. So I shouldn't feel offended by someone calling me insults like dumb and calling my posts bullshit, just because I post stuff on here that disagrees with your views?
Wow dude..I thought your views were simply biased but you're a really hateful person too. You rage at people who doesn't see things your way. I would hate to know you in real life.
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You keep ignoring my points. I called your post uninformed and dumb because it fucking is. The only reason you call me biased towards Terran is because you cannot stand the more worthy opinion/analyses of a higher level player. Why dont I call out others on that the same way I do with you?
Sorry to say but I dont hate at all but you simply overdo it. I Could break that game down for you to the smallest detail and in the end you would say terran op. Like LSN tells us what innovation was doing wasnt impressive. Perfect control and multitasking but for a simple mind it sure looks like nothing impressive.
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On August 05 2013 22:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. As long as Inject Larvae and Warp Gate also get increased energy cost and cooldowns an increase in cost for the MULE is acceptable. The MULE is the one thing which makes up for the far more powerful production speed boost mechanics of Zerg and Protoss. Terrans NEED IT to build lots of structured to produce stuff from ... and if players keep on attacking the SCVs instead of the production they will keep on losing. There are several ways to win in SC2: - stifle the enemy's economy - stifle his production capability - directly overwhelm the enemy army The second path usually gets ignored, but the fact that Terrans really need those tech labs and reactors and that they have rather low hp, should make the tactic clear. Terran isnt limited by mineral income at all due to the MULE. The need to build a lot of buildings in sensible spots (where the units you produce can get to the front easily) does open up such a vulnerability.
Most of them are in the middle of a Terrans base. Each of them has 400HP for the cost of 75-100resources. Meanwhile an SCV has 45HP for 50resources. How on earth if that more vulnerable than attacking the mineral line.
Of course Terran needs workers and is limited by that income and killing workers is a much better strategy than taking 6times the time to kill a freaking addon which is only 1/10 or 1/15 of a Terrans production
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On August 05 2013 22:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. As long as Inject Larvae and Warp Gate also get increased energy cost and cooldowns an increase in cost for the MULE is acceptable. The MULE is the one thing which makes up for the far more powerful production speed boost mechanics of Zerg and Protoss. Terrans NEED IT to build lots of structured to produce stuff from ... and if players keep on attacking the SCVs instead of the production they will keep on losing. There are several ways to win in SC2: - stifle the enemy's economy - stifle his production capability - directly overwhelm the enemy army The second path usually gets ignored, but the fact that Terrans really need those tech labs and reactors and that they have rather low hp, should make the tactic clear. Terran isnt limited by mineral income at all due to the MULE. The need to build a lot of buildings in sensible spots (where the units you produce can get to the front easily) does open up such a vulnerability.
Sure, seems a little silly though that once a certain amount of oc's get up and running harassing the economy becomes an almost impossible way to win the game.
In any event, a terran or zerg past 12ish minutes in a tvz is very unlikely to be maxed, and if they are, chances are the game wasn't being played as aggressively as normal, or they've pretty much already won. At least on the surface it looks like production mechanics only really benefit the zerg to a large degree early game/the occasional fight which wipes out both armies in the late game, while mules merely equalize the economy early game and then become so much more powerful late game.
I suppose that's just asymmetrical balancing, but it would be nice for all races to have abilities like that which make them scale better with mechanics.
Actually it's silly of me to say that people don't get maxed in a tvz nor float resources, but its the type of thing that happens less and less as the game goes on, and once players can no longer spend as fast as they can generate larva then the effectiveness of larva inject goes down.
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EPT
