EPT
how about ghost snipe buff?
like 20 (+20 vs light)?
Burrow... I think it was meant to be a later tech (wonder why wol had it in lair)
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 660
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
how about ghost snipe buff? like 20 (+20 vs light)? Burrow... I think it was meant to be a later tech (wonder why wol had it in lair) | ||
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F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
On August 05 2013 16:01 SsDrKosS wrote: oh no... am I too late to say a thing about ghost or burrow? how about ghost snipe buff? like 20 (+20 vs light)? Burrow... I think it was meant to be a later tech (wonder why wol had it in lair) epic b8 | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3514 Posts
Just like often time it's not really a given that you should target down drones, since for Zerg it mostly comes down to larvae and you can actually diminish his drone count, by killing army units and it's not always worth it to lose all your stuff to get a bunch of drones, compared to Protoss where units and workers are too completely different variables. Races are different and we needn't always pinpoint what's different in a race to pinpoint where there's imbalance. It makes the game less linear and it also creates possible solutions for races to overcome said imbalance. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 05 2013 16:26 ejozl wrote: Mules is one of the wonderful new things that we have in SC2 and it makes the race more unique, when you do harass to a Terran you should take into account the mules.. Just like often time it's not really a given that you should target down drones, since for Zerg it mostly comes down to larvae and you can actually diminish his drone count, by killing army units and it's not always worth it to lose all your stuff to get a bunch of drones, compared to Protoss where units and workers are too completely different variables. Races are different and we needn't always pinpoint what's different in a race to pinpoint where there's imbalance. It makes the game less linear and it also creates possible solutions for races to overcome said imbalance. I agree races are different, but killing a drone is also removing larvae. Not like drones dont cost larvae too  Killing 10 drones is more impactful than killing 20 lings (in 98% of cases) even though their larvae and mineral cost are equal | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 05 2013 16:38 TheRabidDeer wrote: I agree races are different, but killing a drone is also removing larvae. Not like drones dont cost larvae too Killing 10 drones is more impactful than killing 20 lings (in 98% of cases) even though their larvae and mineral cost are equal Killing 50 scvs does have impact as well, but the impact first of all can be minimized by Terrans mechanic of the mule for a short period of time and especially depending on what your production is. It also scales with the orbitals, 3 orbitals with perfect saturation (meaning you could mule 3 times after the attack hit) means you can push your income and make up for a loss of ~20 workers with those mules to keep your production at least running a bit. Terran will either be very defensive or very aggressive in that period because he needs to do something with the lack of units you have. A big attack like from SoulKey means he wasn't very high economy or at least did sacrifice something for it. In that game it was upgrades and obviously a bit of economy. INnoVation couldn't simply sit home, because SK would have droned behind and before INnoVation could have pushed successfully again, he would have been overrun. SK used his banelings very poorly and also his mutalisks. INnoVation if I remember correctly basically cut every defensive measurement and went straight to offensive (besides the bunker+1mine at 3rd). SK used 30 banelings or at least 20 to do something, had dimishing return everytime as INnoVation was very prepared. Even if SK would have taken a cost-inefficient engagement with all of his units or flank from both sides, he could have won the game. INnoVation needed his parade push to stay ALIVE. He didn't need to win 5 small engagements and lose his parade push then, he needed to keep it alive until his economy is up and running again. If SK had spent all his money on the defensive, he could have crushed either the attack once, even though possibly cost-inefficient for him but he would have bought time for h im, as I already mentioned the production capability by that time is held up by mules and even though you can produce, you cannot whore out units like you could with your economy behind. He could have used his mutalisks to cut reinforcements but he chose to be non-active with his army, rallying small parts of ling/bane into many medivacs + marine + marauder. INnoVations splits were superb and everyone touching Terran once knows that this was brilliance by him. When he finally pushed in he had very few marines actually when winning the fight, if SK didn't use lots of ling/bane on the 3rd or previously to engage in small parts he potentially could have won. He did it in the past and without an upgrade disadvantage through the whole game I feel like he would have done it again. As for races being different: If Terran hits a timing on Zerg and trades units even cost-efficiently, Zerg can drone up behind it (after it) because there is no chance for Terran to hit a strong timing behind it again. We can produce units while doing the timing, but our units scale a lot so 30 marines is a million times better than 15 marines. If your timing does a lot of damage in economy Zerg can still drone up after the timing, because as I said Terran cannot hit 2 base timings with huge followup pushes. Most likely you will be behind, but the game isn't done. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 05 2013 16:51 NarutO wrote: As for races being different: If Terran hits a timing on Zerg and trades units even cost-efficiently, Zerg can drone up behind it (after it) because there is no chance for Terran to hit a strong timing behind it again. We can produce units while doing the timing, but our units scale a lot so 30 marines is a million times better than 15 marines. If your timing does a lot of damage in economy Zerg can still drone up after the timing, because as I said Terran cannot hit 2 base timings with huge followup pushes. Most likely you will be behind, but the game isn't done. That used to be true because Infestors regenerated energy and bought time. The current builds however mean that a Terran will be back with 30more marines a minute later and you have to produce ling/baneling constantly to stay alive. You can't drone up behind against the standard 3CC mass rax pushgalore, as a Terran has the same production as you have, but you don't have powerunits that trade costefficiently until ultras are out. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:02 Big J wrote: That used to be true because Infestors regenerated energy and bought time. The current builds however mean that a Terran will be back with 30more marines a minute later and you have to produce ling/baneling constantly to stay alive. You can't drone up behind against the standard 3CC mass rax pushgalore, as a Terran has the same production as you have, but you don't have powerunits that trade costefficiently until ultras are out. I did especially write '2 base timing' as its the equivalent to what SoulKey did, just that Zergs pushes usually hit with 3 instead of 2 bases. A Terran 3-base push is not a real timing that you hit, its simply putting pressure / macro game. You do not sacrifice your economy but build it up before pushing. An equal style would be 4 base Zerg with ling/muta/bane. The difference is, Zerg has many variations of it. Terran really hasn't that much stuff to do besides marine/hellion or marine/mine timing on 2 base. Maybe hellbat/marauder pre-patch or marauder/hellion. Zergs can try 2 base spire (even though I feel that sucks) 2 base roach timings etc. So I wasn't saying you should drone against a mineparade. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11088 Posts
On August 05 2013 16:26 ejozl wrote: Mules is one of the wonderful new things that we have in SC2 and it makes the race more unique, when you do harass to a Terran you should take into account the mules.. Just like often time it's not really a given that you should target down drones, since for Zerg it mostly comes down to larvae and you can actually diminish his drone count, by killing army units and it's not always worth it to lose all your stuff to get a bunch of drones, compared to Protoss where units and workers are too completely different variables. Races are different and we needn't always pinpoint what's different in a race to pinpoint where there's imbalance. It makes the game less linear and it also creates possible solutions for races to overcome said imbalance. Eh it's the game we have. What the mule does to increase resiliency and boost the early game and the consequent changes to the other races mn. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:06 NarutO wrote: I did especially write '2 base timing' as its the equivalent to what SoulKey did, just that Zergs pushes usually hit with 3 instead of 2 bases. A Terran 3-base push is not a real timing that you hit, its simply putting pressure / macro game. You do not sacrifice your economy but build it up before pushing. An equal style would be 4 base Zerg with ling/muta/bane. The difference is, Zerg has many variations of it. Terran really hasn't that much stuff to do besides marine/hellion or marine/mine timing on 2 base. Maybe hellbat/marauder pre-patch or marauder/hellion. Zergs can try 2 base spire (even though I feel that sucks) 2 base roach timings etc. So I wasn't saying you should drone against a mineparade. oh, sorry. Missunderstood that. I thought the 2 base timing thing was just an addendum to the above where you talk generally about timings. Not gonna talk about the "who has better timing things". It's not fruitful and each side will deny the viability of timing X and Y "because it relies on mistake Z". | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:18 Big J wrote: oh, sorry. Missunderstood that. I thought the 2 base timing thing was just an addendum to the above where you talk generally about timings. Not gonna talk about the "who has better timing things". It's not fruitful and each side will deny the viability of timing X and Y "because it relies on mistake Z". Timings always rely on mistakes, from both perspectives. In addition to that, it also depends on how its executed. So yeah, I guess we can agree that both races have their options. May I ask the Zerg users why they don't try a roach style or even roach/hydra against biomine? To me it looks like Biomine>Muta/Ling/Bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, I guess slightly favored towards Terran if he's good) Biomine<Roach/Hydra Marine/Tank>Roach/Hydra Marine/Tank<Muta/ling/bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, slightly favored towards good Zergs since HotS) | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:22 NarutO wrote: Timings always rely on mistakes, from both perspectives. In addition to that, it also depends on how its executed. So yeah, I guess we can agree that both races have their options. May I ask the Zerg users why they don't try a roach style or even roach/hydra against biomine? To me it looks like Biomine>Muta/Ling/Bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, I guess slightly favored towards Terran if he's good) Biomine<Roach/Hydra Marine/Tank>Roach/Hydra Marine/Tank<Muta/ling/bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, slightly favored towards good Zergs since HotS) thats how it should be. sadly roach hydra just gets dropped to death, cant harrass at all AND isnt even that great in a straight up engagement once 3 3 finishes + if you transition into ultras or BLs they have 0 attack upgrades. really hope they buff vipers blinding cloud vs mobile armies soon so roach hydra might be worthwile. right now it isnt on highest korean level (except the 2 2 roach hydra all in which if scouted gets pretty easy shut down by swapping factory to teclab and going for 5-6 tanks instead of WMs). | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back... How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote: So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still). Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back... How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. pretty easy fix. lower blinding cloud duration from 14 to 10 sec (= buff to mech) but make the cloud also stick for 4-5 sec to the units even if they move out of cloud (or whatever duration is balanced). | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote: So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still). Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back... How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. We have the same thinking pattern. At first I was thinking that it just sticks to units but that would be another 'no micro' spell and would only leave the chance to retreat. On the other hand, I was thinking that you could decrease the range of units. It would allow Terran to decide either to still take the fight or to dodge the clouds. Mech would be stronger as you can still fire. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:58 Decendos wrote: pretty easy fix. lower blinding cloud duration from 14 to 10 sec (= buff to mech) but make the cloud also stick for 4-5 sec to the units even if they move out of cloud (or whatever duration is balanced). Making it stick to units would be imbalanced even for a short duration. Its another ability that you wouldn't be able to do anything about. If Zerg casts it on your units. If you want a change like that, you would still need to say, that this applies to Zerg as well. If it wouldn't , he would cast it on your units and run through the clouds as fast as possible, and since Zerg units are usually faster it would spell doom for Terran. 4-5 seconds are a very long time if you consider not shooting back at all. | ||
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ETisME
12764 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote: So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still). Any outright buff to vipers/blinding cloud (for example large radius) would simply affect mech much more than any other army. So you would have to change mechanics. They could make blinding cloud get 'stuck' to all units in it, so if they leave it they are still blinded. But then micro'ing out of a blinding cloud becomes pointless, I have my doubts if that would improve the game. Sure you would still micro: press F2, move all units back... How about if they increase the radius, but change it to a 60-70% range reduction instead? I think it is hard to consider all the effects, but the idea is that it is easier to cover mobile armies in it, while at the same time sieged tanks can still at least fire a bit. look at how blizzard buff things nowadays. they can just do a mech resistance to cloud for half the duration or something | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:22 NarutO wrote: Timings always rely on mistakes, from both perspectives. In addition to that, it also depends on how its executed. So yeah, I guess we can agree that both races have their options. May I ask the Zerg users why they don't try a roach style or even roach/hydra against biomine? To me it looks like Biomine>Muta/Ling/Bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, I guess slightly favored towards Terran if he's good) Biomine<Roach/Hydra Marine/Tank>Roach/Hydra Marine/Tank<Muta/ling/bane (in concept, but I would argue that both can win with that style, slightly favored towards good Zergs since HotS) I'm not playing roach/hydra anymore, because though it often works at my level (lowish master, just had to put in some time to get back to masters, I was mostly just playing unranked the last seasons), when it doesn't work it feels from my side like a "well he saw that I went roach/hydra, made the 3-5tanks you should to hold any sorts of roach 1-1 or roach/hydra 2-2 timings and then went pure bio --> I don't think it's possible to win with roach/hydra against this." Imo most of the success from roach/hydra comes from opponents that don't have tanks and marauders at the right times and/or overmake them in the lategame... or that just still play biomine after scouting roachhydra. Like, when I want to abuse a Terran, I'm much more confident with just going ling/baneling, let him see my spire and go straight into ultras without mutalisks. (so many terrans never drop after confirming a spire and then lose to 15min ultras when they realize there are no mutas coming) | ||
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pmp10
3398 Posts
On August 05 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote: So how could they buff vipers without making mech even worse? (Although knowing blizzard they don't care about that, but still). I don't think Blizzard plans a straight-up buff. Blinding cloud is proving pointless against anything that isn't mech and would likely require a rework. And I doubt it would help mech much as abduct alone seems sufficiently strong. You can't balance a ability against terran that is meant to be countered with feedbacks. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12043 Posts
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