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On August 05 2013 01:07 Sissors wrote:Okay you have a point there  . But what I meant, as you surely know, is that if you say casual balance is irrelevant since they can become better, you can also say balance for pros is irrelevant since you can also tell them to just get better.
It comes down to what you have and what you haven't.
Player will make mistakes. The best players will make less mistakes, and less large ones. If you get a situation where the best players scout something, prepare accordingly for it, don't slip in macro, and several players still lose several times, then maybe it is time to consider what that situation is (not already time to patch it, time to consider it).
In that view, I would look at a gold league complaint replay, go like "hey you have less units than you should have / bad macro / bad scouting / whatever", and deem it irrelevant.
I want my patching done very carefully, and I want it to make sense. I don't want any more +2 queen ranges and ruined games. So far Blizzard has been doing a fine job with HotS on that regard.
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On August 05 2013 01:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 01:07 Sissors wrote:Okay you have a point there . But what I meant, as you surely know, is that if you say casual balance is irrelevant since they can become better, you can also say balance for pros is irrelevant since you can also tell them to just get better. It comes down to what you have and what you haven't. Player will make mistakes. The best players will make less mistakes, and less large ones. If you get a situation where the best players scout something, prepare accordingly for it, don't slip in macro, and several players still lose several times, then maybe it is time to consider what that situation is (not already time to patch it, time to consider it). In that view, I would look at a gold league complaint replay, go like "hey you have less units than you should have / bad macro / bad scouting / whatever", and deem it irrelevant. I want my patching done very carefully, and I want it to make sense. I don't want any more +2 queen ranges and ruined games. So far Blizzard has been doing a fine job with HotS on that regard.
Hear, hear!
This is exactly the kind of careful methodological processes that Blizzard need to take.
We simply lost too much audience after back-to-back ZvZs finals at the end-of-WoL's life.
I for one am one of the casualties, EMP radius nerf, Banshee cloak research cost increase, queen +2 range, Thor damage nerf from 90 to 60 per hit (became a dps type from a slow but powerful single burst damage dealer), my last straw was the snipe damage nerf... Blizzard could have put a cool down timer in addition to MP cost to reduce the snipe-for-everything scenario in TvZ, but more a Fuck-you-Terran-I'm-Dustin-Browder nerf.
It still pisses me off.
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On August 05 2013 01:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 01:07 Sissors wrote:Okay you have a point there . But what I meant, as you surely know, is that if you say casual balance is irrelevant since they can become better, you can also say balance for pros is irrelevant since you can also tell them to just get better. It comes down to what you have and what you haven't. Player will make mistakes. The best players will make less mistakes, and less large ones. If you get a situation where the best players scout something, prepare accordingly for it, don't slip in macro, and several players still lose several times, then maybe it is time to consider what that situation is (not already time to patch it, time to consider it). In that view, I would look at a gold league complaint replay, go like "hey you have less units than you should have / bad macro / bad scouting / whatever", and deem it irrelevant. I want my patching done very carefully, and I want it to make sense. I don't want any more +2 queen ranges and ruined games. So far Blizzard has been doing a fine job with HotS on that regard.
aren't you countering your own point? If you aren't a pro, how could you say that patch the game is ruined for you? A pro can just look at your replay and finds out what you could have done better, you could have more macro, better scouting etc.
immortal sentries all in at the start had the exact requirement as you said, except it didn't get patched and still had an absurd high win rate
The only reason why you think Blizzard is doing a good job with HotS is because they aren't exactly patching anything major, you can call it being curious, I will call it overly obserative.
people can always complain about the players didn't do the right thing and needs the metagame to be figured out.
A lot of people including you thinks the queen patch was horrible because of broodlord infestors.
However the metagame before the patch was equally horrible.
there were at least 6 different all ins from terran AND an extremely safe in base 3rd CC while zerg getting pinned on 3 base and needs roaches to grab a third safely, delaying tech and econ even more.
A lot were basically 10 mins build up, 2 mins game because of the all ins.
and a tonnes of games where Terran just runs the hellions in and roast everything and that is not even being an all in build OR zerg losing for failing to scout whether it was a 2 port banshee or a cloak banshee
ZvT wins were mostly from roach ling baneling all ins to the win (DRG vs MMA final included) and getting to the deathball being equal base against the terran.
When some people complains that the patch shuts every early aggression builds too hard or even shut down all in completely, Mvp won games against life with the most simple bfhellion runby.
patch should be done in a fashion that it will balance the risk and reward more, not just if the strategy should be perfectly scouted, prepared to defend.
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On August 05 2013 02:38 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 01:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 05 2013 01:07 Sissors wrote:Okay you have a point there . But what I meant, as you surely know, is that if you say casual balance is irrelevant since they can become better, you can also say balance for pros is irrelevant since you can also tell them to just get better. It comes down to what you have and what you haven't. Player will make mistakes. The best players will make less mistakes, and less large ones. If you get a situation where the best players scout something, prepare accordingly for it, don't slip in macro, and several players still lose several times, then maybe it is time to consider what that situation is (not already time to patch it, time to consider it). In that view, I would look at a gold league complaint replay, go like "hey you have less units than you should have / bad macro / bad scouting / whatever", and deem it irrelevant. I want my patching done very carefully, and I want it to make sense. I don't want any more +2 queen ranges and ruined games. So far Blizzard has been doing a fine job with HotS on that regard. aren't you countering your own point? If you aren't a pro, how could you say that patch the game is ruined for you? A pro can just look at your replay and finds out what you could have done better, you could have more macro, better scouting etc. immortal sentries all in at the start had the exact requirement as you said, except it didn't get patched and still had an absurd high win rate
The patch didn't ruin the game for me, I went for the same build every single time in PvZ, that got 6 DTs in their bases at around 9:30 I think, and had an absurd winrate with it because I was playing horrible players. The game was ruined as a spectator cause of what I was seeing at high level. I think everyone will tell you the same thing regarding end of WoL.
Immortal sentry all-in isn't relevant in HotS. Yeah, it had some of the requirements in WoL, enough to make it a relevant issue as to whether it should be patched or not (which, if Blizzard had been doing their job at the end of WoL, I'm sure it would have been). But anyway if you want to complain about WoL patching I'm pretty sure there are bigger issues. Actually you could even go the other way, and say that immortal sentry wasn't strong enough. It was the way for protoss to counter the 6-min three-hatch no-gas build, that zerg did every single game. If it was strong enough, then it would win every game, and zerg wouldn't be going for this build at all. Instead, protoss had a good winrate with it, but not enough to persuade zergs to try other openings (possibly because the other zerg openings weren't strong enough, or possibly because there's no reason to try other stuff when what you do works fine enough of the time).
I don't know why you think I'm a terran defender in WoL (Hattori got the same idea and I'm not sure why either). Yeah, terran was way too strong in WoL. No, the answer wasn't to make zerg way too strong instead.
I'd rather we wouldn't ramble about WoL too much anyway. Game is dead now. Let's leave it at that and focus on what's alive.
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I think the one thing we can all agree on is that Carbotlings are OP. My heart doesn't have anywhere near enough armor upgrades to withstand their damage output.
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On August 05 2013 01:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 01:07 Sissors wrote:Okay you have a point there . But what I meant, as you surely know, is that if you say casual balance is irrelevant since they can become better, you can also say balance for pros is irrelevant since you can also tell them to just get better. It comes down to what you have and what you haven't. Player will make mistakes. The best players will make less mistakes, and less large ones. If you get a situation where the best players scout something, prepare accordingly for it, don't slip in macro, and several players still lose several times, then maybe it is time to consider what that situation is (not already time to patch it, time to consider it). In that view, I would look at a gold league complaint replay, go like "hey you have less units than you should have / bad macro / bad scouting / whatever", and deem it irrelevant. I want my patching done very carefully, and I want it to make sense. I don't want any more +2 queen ranges and ruined games. So far Blizzard has been doing a fine job with HotS on that regard.
Actually I would advise to start thinking about the game design if there is that problem with the Gold league player. The reason is quite simple: It is rather easy to switch from "full economy" to "full production" mode in SC2 and this easily allows players to overwhelm their opponent who hasnt started producing lots of stuff. This is even a valid tactic for professionals in that they hide their critical tech or the sudden addition of 5-6 Gateways for example. For Gold league players this is much harder, because they re slower / less frequent to scout and react plus they are less likely to draw the right conclusions from certain signs.
In BW this was less likely to be a problem because there simply wasnt this high economy available and the unit selection limit and the spread out unit movement made it easier to defend with a handful of units against superior numbers ... which gave you a much bigger time to react to the threat. The unlimited unit selection and super tight unit movement made it too easy for an attacker to use a clump of units and it negates all possible defensive advantages for a player ... superior numbers will always win in SC2.
EDIT: The production capability IS PART OF THE BALANCE OF THE RACES, but it is usually ignored ...
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HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point.
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On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point.
Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point.
Starcraft isn't a game of 'who kills the most workers' though.
I mean really?
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On August 05 2013 01:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 01:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 05 2013 01:07 Sissors wrote:Okay you have a point there . But what I meant, as you surely know, is that if you say casual balance is irrelevant since they can become better, you can also say balance for pros is irrelevant since you can also tell them to just get better. It comes down to what you have and what you haven't. Player will make mistakes. The best players will make less mistakes, and less large ones. If you get a situation where the best players scout something, prepare accordingly for it, don't slip in macro, and several players still lose several times, then maybe it is time to consider what that situation is (not already time to patch it, time to consider it). In that view, I would look at a gold league complaint replay, go like "hey you have less units than you should have / bad macro / bad scouting / whatever", and deem it irrelevant. I want my patching done very carefully, and I want it to make sense. I don't want any more +2 queen ranges and ruined games. So far Blizzard has been doing a fine job with HotS on that regard. Hear, hear! This is exactly the kind of careful methodological processes that Blizzard need to take. We simply lost too much audience after back-to-back ZvZs finals at the end-of-WoL's life. I for one am one of the casualties, EMP radius nerf, Banshee cloak research cost increase, queen +2 range, Thor damage nerf from 90 to 60 per hit (became a dps type from a slow but powerful single burst damage dealer), my last straw was the snipe damage nerf... Blizzard could have put a cool down timer in addition to MP cost to reduce the snipe-for-everything scenario in TvZ, but more a Fuck-you-Terran-I'm-Dustin-Browder nerf. It still pisses me off.
I am gonna disagree and say quite a few of those were very necessary... in fact maybe all with a caveat on the queen range increase. Taking forever to patch (for an example you an empathize with see the last half year of WoL) is as much a sin as patching too quickly. Look at the whole of Puma's career...
GomTVT and significant portions of SC2 play before those patches weren't the epitome of great RTS gameplay to watch.
edit:
On ghost owl's posts, he's raising the same points that were made about Mules ages ago. Looking back over 2/3 years, one has to wonder if the macro mechanics were really a success. Hell to be fair, bitching about how larva management really isn't a massive part of the game anymore wouldn't be out of place. I won't mention protoss macro mechanics for sanity's sake.
I mean it is arguable that you can't wear a terran down with harass like you would ... well protoss I suppose.
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On August 05 2013 10:54 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Starcraft isn't a game of 'who kills the most workers' though. I mean really?
If that were the case, Zerg would've actually lost some of those games in late WoL when Terrans were killing 40+ workers.
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On August 05 2013 10:34 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work.
Yeah, we get it, you're a grossly biased T-player. Seriously, if T-players were losing in straight-up matches vZ the way Z-players are vT (at the top level), the qq would be a thousandfold more abound. Sniper was right when he labelled T-players as shameless.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 05 2013 13:33 F.O.A.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:34 Terrasmith wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work. Yeah, we get it, you're a grossly biased T-player. Seriously, if T-players were losing in straight-up matches vZ the way Z-players are vT (at the top level), the qq would be a thousandfold more abound. Sniper was right when he labelled T-players as shameless.
Halving medivac healing rate, or nerfing stim, or changing mules are acceptable well-thought out changes?
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On August 05 2013 13:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 13:33 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 05 2013 10:34 Terrasmith wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work. Yeah, we get it, you're a grossly biased T-player. Seriously, if T-players were losing in straight-up matches vZ the way Z-players are vT (at the top level), the qq would be a thousandfold more abound. Sniper was right when he labelled T-players as shameless. Halving medivac healing rate, or nerfing stim, or changing mules are acceptable well-thought out changes?
Funny, I don't recall saying that in my reply.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 05 2013 13:41 F.O.A.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 13:38 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 05 2013 13:33 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 05 2013 10:34 Terrasmith wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work. Yeah, we get it, you're a grossly biased T-player. Seriously, if T-players were losing in straight-up matches vZ the way Z-players are vT (at the top level), the qq would be a thousandfold more abound. Sniper was right when he labelled T-players as shameless. Halving medivac healing rate, or nerfing stim, or changing mules are acceptable well-thought out changes? Funny, I don't recall saying that in my reply.
Did you read the starting branch of that chain of replies?
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On August 05 2013 13:44 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 13:41 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 05 2013 13:38 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 05 2013 13:33 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 05 2013 10:34 Terrasmith wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work. Yeah, we get it, you're a grossly biased T-player. Seriously, if T-players were losing in straight-up matches vZ the way Z-players are vT (at the top level), the qq would be a thousandfold more abound. Sniper was right when he labelled T-players as shameless. Halving medivac healing rate, or nerfing stim, or changing mules are acceptable well-thought out changes? Funny, I don't recall saying that in my reply. Did you read the starting branch of that chain of replies?
Mhm.
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On August 05 2013 13:33 F.O.A.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:34 Terrasmith wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work. Yeah, we get it, you're a grossly biased T-player. Seriously, if T-players were losing in straight-up matches vZ the way Z-players are vT (at the top level), the qq would be a thousandfold more abound. Sniper was right when he labelled T-players as shameless.
Calling me grossly biased is rich, considering you know nothing at all about me. And only the most biased anti-Terran would consider a huge nerf to stim or healing fair and balanced. Ad hominem attacks and baseless "what if?" statements don't make an argument.
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On August 05 2013 12:00 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Starcraft isn't a game of 'who kills the most workers' though. I mean really? If that were the case, Zerg would've actually lost some of those games in late WoL when Terrans were killing 40+ workers.
Maybe my memory was fuzzy, but I thought they did. Do you have a link to some games where Z was down to ~5-10 drones vs 40-50 SCV's and still won?
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On August 05 2013 14:04 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 13:33 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 05 2013 10:34 Terrasmith wrote:On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point. Yeah, we get it, Innovation doesn't lose. You've been on this for a while now, and if any of those nerfs were to go through, Terran winrates would plummet. Basing the entire Terran racial balance on Innovation just doesn't work. Yeah, we get it, you're a grossly biased T-player. Seriously, if T-players were losing in straight-up matches vZ the way Z-players are vT (at the top level), the qq would be a thousandfold more abound. Sniper was right when he labelled T-players as shameless. Calling me grossly biased is rich, considering you know nothing at all about me. And only the most biased anti-Terran would consider a huge nerf to stim or healing fair and balanced. Ad hominem attacks and baseless "what if?" statements don't make an argument.
"Calling me grossly biased is rich"
The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is rancid, not rich.
"And only the most biased anti-Terran would consider a huge nerf to stim or healing fair and balanced"
Uhh...cool beans? That is in no way relevant to my reply, as nowhere did I state that I agree with GhostOwl's proposed balance changes. l2interpret
"baseless 'what if?' statements don't make an argument"
Awesome, but the outcome of my "If..." scenario wasn't baseless by any stretch. T-players are the quickest to whine.
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On August 05 2013 09:48 GhostOwl wrote:
HOLY moly. Just watched the Innovation vs Soulkey game in proleague finals late because I was busy with work recently.
I'm just amazed at how much damage Soulkey dished out through his semi all-in early-mid game and Innovation still won. The commentator even said "Killing SCVs doesn't even matter because Terran has mules"
No other race would be able to come back from that much damage. Terran in TvZ is so damn broken. You kill workers, Terran still has macro advantage because you spent a lot of resources to commit to attacks and he has mules. You keep up equal number of bases, Terran macro advantage is stronger on equal number of bases. You fight Terran army head-on late game, marine spread backed with WM and marauders just fuck up your army no matter what.
Mules...needs a global cooldown...bad. Or a increase cost in energy to cast one. And bio should be nerfed in some way, preferrably Stim or Medivac healing rate halved. Some DRASTIC change is needed at this point.
I went through the game and put time into it to explain , as well as did others. If you don't want to listen or have a discussion why are you here? You simply choose to go over my post and whine (once again) like LSN. You are uninformed, dumb and your understanding of the game is so lacking, that I cannot believe you even noticed that the Terran lost workers in the first place.
Are you actually interested in having a balanced game that requires skill from both parties to win or are you simply here to QQ about the currently best player in the world? Your uninformed bullshit is staggering, but what about this: Go ahead and try to explain to me why SoulKey might have lost that game on reasonable facts but not balance QQ.
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EPT
