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On August 06 2013 03:52 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Win rates for these qualifiers:
PvT
59–40 (60%)
PvZ
53–53 (50%)
TvZ
47–46 (51%)
10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague.
And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally. Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right? Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba?
Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? 4m is pretty hard to play against and only totally crushing the terran army can you get even or slightly ahead. WM make it that small mistake ends the game, whereas if zerg wins the engagement the terran might be slightly behind. See the difference between the 2 outcomes?
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On August 06 2013 03:53 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:52 Foxxan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:33 Foxxan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Win rates for these qualifiers:
PvT
59–40 (60%)
PvZ
53–53 (50%)
TvZ
47–46 (51%)
10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague.
And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that. You are crossing the line, stop defend others and stop go offensive on others You for example called me out as a balance whiner in another thread the other day, talking about me in third person Which was offtopic Bad style, unacceptable Stop! I can barely understand you. I think you're trying to find some weird "hypocricy" argument in this. But no-one else knows the hell you are talking about. And the comment you made in the other thread was balance whining in itself, so all I had to do was to make it explicit so no-one else would take the bait. And it worked. Your response to that was to immediately get yourself temp banned... You are so weird, do not talk about me like that again, its patehtic Calling me pathetic (mind the spelling) got you temp banned the last time too.
I didnt call u pathetic i said "it is" , thats a huge difference
and the reason i got temp banned was because i spammed u with pms
you really are something
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On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:
Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it?
And the secret is even known:  Mechanics
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On August 06 2013 04:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:
Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? And the secret is even known: Mechanics
Takes some of that magic to defend it also.
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On August 06 2013 04:03 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:
Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? And the secret is even known: Mechanics Takes some of that magic to defend it also.
Careful, you're on the slippery slope; you might end up admitting Zerg lose not because of imbalance, but because they're outplayed.
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On August 06 2013 04:05 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:03 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 04:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:
Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? And the secret is even known: Mechanics Takes some of that magic to defend it also. Careful, you're on the slippery slope; you might end up admitting Zerg lose not because of imbalance, but because they're outplayed.
Or that this tactic is so OP that zerg needs to have overwhelming mechanics to hold and SK is only equal to Innovation -->Terran is OP. POW! Counter that son!
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On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:52 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:
[quote]
where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally. Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right? Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba? Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? 4m is pretty hard to play against and only totally crushing the terran army can you get even or slightly ahead. WM make it that small mistake ends the game, whereas if zerg wins the engagement the terran might be slightly behind. See the difference between the 2 outcomes?
I wasn't implying anything. I merely provided illustration for your claim to make it explicit what you're talking about. I'd like to point out that a timing is defined as something that kills you unless you defend properly. And if it were an all-in, it would kill the instigator when defended. That's the meaning of the term.
So, terran has this one timing, it's not crushing zergs across the board (unless it's Innovation doing it), it's not played in all TvZs. I repeat, what makes it imba?
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On August 06 2013 04:07 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:05 TheDwf wrote:On August 06 2013 04:03 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 04:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:
Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? And the secret is even known: Mechanics Takes some of that magic to defend it also. Careful, you're on the slippery slope; you might end up admitting Zerg lose not because of imbalance, but because they're outplayed. Or that this tactic is so OP that zerg needs to have overwhelming mechanics to hold and SK is only equal to Innovation -->Terran is OP. POW! Counter that son!
If Soulkey is equal to Bogus, care to elaborate why he was 3:0'ed in the RO8 of a WoL Code S season?
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On August 06 2013 04:08 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:52 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
WCG KOREA QUALIFIER.
What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally. Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right? Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba? Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? 4m is pretty hard to play against and only totally crushing the terran army can you get even or slightly ahead. WM make it that small mistake ends the game, whereas if zerg wins the engagement the terran might be slightly behind. See the difference between the 2 outcomes? I wasn't implying anything. I merely provided illustration for your claim to make it explicit what you're talking about. I'd like to point out that a timing is defined as something that kills you unless you defend properly. And if it were an all-in, it would kill the instigator when defended. That's the meaning of the term. So, terran has this one timing, it's not crushing zergs across the board (unless it's Innovation doing it), it's not played in all TvZs. I repeat, what makes it imba?
Defend it and you are even. Fail to hold your 4th and the death animation begins. Again i don´t think the game is broken as you would know if you had read my post´s properly. I simply think that t is favored over zerg. Hopefully zerg´s will find out a way to even things in normal macro games, but this is my opinion at the moment. Just to make things easier for you i repeat: Don´t think there is anything broken or really imba in tvz, only advantage terran. (tennis term)
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On August 06 2013 04:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:07 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 04:05 TheDwf wrote:On August 06 2013 04:03 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 04:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:
Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? And the secret is even known: Mechanics Takes some of that magic to defend it also. Careful, you're on the slippery slope; you might end up admitting Zerg lose not because of imbalance, but because they're outplayed. Or that this tactic is so OP that zerg needs to have overwhelming mechanics to hold and SK is only equal to Innovation -->Terran is OP. POW! Counter that son! If Soulkey is equal to Bogus, care to elaborate why he was 3:0'ed in the RO8 of a WoL Code S season?
Because SK has trained after that.
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On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that.
Then, put an effort and look how our discussion with Naruto started, which I left long ago, since its impossible to debate with him, but afterawhile he started insulting people, therefore I commented on it. Biased =/= BM. Dumb = BM. Know the difference.
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On August 06 2013 04:13 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:08 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:52 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data.
Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite.
okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally. Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right? Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba? Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? 4m is pretty hard to play against and only totally crushing the terran army can you get even or slightly ahead. WM make it that small mistake ends the game, whereas if zerg wins the engagement the terran might be slightly behind. See the difference between the 2 outcomes? I wasn't implying anything. I merely provided illustration for your claim to make it explicit what you're talking about. I'd like to point out that a timing is defined as something that kills you unless you defend properly. And if it were an all-in, it would kill the instigator when defended. That's the meaning of the term. So, terran has this one timing, it's not crushing zergs across the board (unless it's Innovation doing it), it's not played in all TvZs. I repeat, what makes it imba? Defend it and you are even. Fail to hold your 4th and the death animation begins. Again i don´t think the game is broken as you would know if you had read my post´s properly. I simply think that t is favored over zerg. Hopefully zerg´s will find out a way to even things in normal macro games, but this is my opinion at the moment. Just to make things easier for you i repeat: Don´t think there is anything broken or really imba in tvz, only advantage terran. (tennis term)
Fifteen love ^^ But I do not agree. There is no clear sign that such a racial advantage (even a small one) exists at this stage. So, the best would be to say that we are waiting for more evidence to see whether a theoretical advantage becomes salient and remains resilient as the meta shifts.
I also wouldn't even say that you end up even, a Z that can get a 4th up and transitions into ultras and infestors with proper upgrades has a pretty formidable army from a T point of view (I still hold that SK had that Newkirk map despite losing too many bases to the initial push, he just didn't use all his infestor fungals and Innovation kited his ultras to death). Unfortunately, we do not usually see games where transitions happen. When Life beats such parade-push game-plans, he usually just camps production with his muta-ling-bane and the terran taps out.
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On August 06 2013 04:15 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that. Then, put an effort and look how our discussion with Naruto started, which I left long ago, since its impossible to debate with him, but afterawhile he started insulting people, therefore I commented on it. Biased =/= BM. Dumb = BM. Know the difference.
I made that distinction in the post you commented on :S
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On August 06 2013 04:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:13 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 04:08 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:52 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:
[quote]
okay here are the arguments...once again:
- you have to go mutas or die
- WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas
- Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in
- TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available)
- MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die
- 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally. Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right? Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba? Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? 4m is pretty hard to play against and only totally crushing the terran army can you get even or slightly ahead. WM make it that small mistake ends the game, whereas if zerg wins the engagement the terran might be slightly behind. See the difference between the 2 outcomes? I wasn't implying anything. I merely provided illustration for your claim to make it explicit what you're talking about. I'd like to point out that a timing is defined as something that kills you unless you defend properly. And if it were an all-in, it would kill the instigator when defended. That's the meaning of the term. So, terran has this one timing, it's not crushing zergs across the board (unless it's Innovation doing it), it's not played in all TvZs. I repeat, what makes it imba? Defend it and you are even. Fail to hold your 4th and the death animation begins. Again i don´t think the game is broken as you would know if you had read my post´s properly. I simply think that t is favored over zerg. Hopefully zerg´s will find out a way to even things in normal macro games, but this is my opinion at the moment. Just to make things easier for you i repeat: Don´t think there is anything broken or really imba in tvz, only advantage terran. (tennis term) Fifteen love ^^ But I do not agree. There is no clear sign that such a racial advantage (even a small one) exists at this stage. So, the best would be to say that we are waiting for more evidence to see whether a theoretical advantage becomes salient and remains resilient as the meta shifts. I also wouldn't even say that you end up even, a Z that can get a 4th up and transitions into ultras and infestors with proper upgrades has a pretty formidable army from a T point of view (I still hold that SK had that Newkirk map despite losing too many bases to the initial push, he just didn't use all his infestor fungals and Innovation kited his ultras to death). Unfortunately, we do not usually see games where transitions happen. When Life beats such parade-push game-plans, he usually just camps production with his muta-ling-bane and the terran taps out.
It seems that we have hit a wall. I will retreat to my underground lair with my zerg comrades and figure out a way to chance your misguided beliefs and ways. Until the next win rates are out we might meet again.
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Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-)
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On August 06 2013 04:20 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:15 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. Ghanburighan, I make it easy for you. 1. I don't like how TvZ works and want some changes. 2. You and naruto (terran side) reply that terran is not op so matchup is fine. Note that I didn't say terran is op. But you go on defending it as if I did. Therefore I concluded you're biased. Since you can't take a break from trying to prove terran is not op. (Which I didn't even claim). Remember, I'm the guy with whom you agreed not to argue on balance because you want a design solution, I want a balance solution. I still think we shouldn't discuss balance and I fully support the idea that there should be a forum to discuss design (which is separate from this thread). In this case, however, I took offense and your BM towards NarutO and I commented on that. Then, put an effort and look how our discussion with Naruto started, which I left long ago, since its impossible to debate with him, but afterawhile he started insulting people, therefore I commented on it. Biased =/= BM. Dumb = BM. Know the difference. I made that distinction in the post you commented on :S
how did I BM naruto exactly?
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On August 06 2013 04:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:13 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 04:08 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:52 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:
[quote]
okay here are the arguments...once again:
- you have to go mutas or die
- WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas
- Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in
- TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available)
- MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die
- 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long How are these even remotely arguments? 1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant? Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think. I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally. Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right? Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba? Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? 4m is pretty hard to play against and only totally crushing the terran army can you get even or slightly ahead. WM make it that small mistake ends the game, whereas if zerg wins the engagement the terran might be slightly behind. See the difference between the 2 outcomes? I wasn't implying anything. I merely provided illustration for your claim to make it explicit what you're talking about. I'd like to point out that a timing is defined as something that kills you unless you defend properly. And if it were an all-in, it would kill the instigator when defended. That's the meaning of the term. So, terran has this one timing, it's not crushing zergs across the board (unless it's Innovation doing it), it's not played in all TvZs. I repeat, what makes it imba? Defend it and you are even. Fail to hold your 4th and the death animation begins. Again i don´t think the game is broken as you would know if you had read my post´s properly. I simply think that t is favored over zerg. Hopefully zerg´s will find out a way to even things in normal macro games, but this is my opinion at the moment. Just to make things easier for you i repeat: Don´t think there is anything broken or really imba in tvz, only advantage terran. (tennis term) Fifteen love ^^ But I do not agree. There is no clear sign that such a racial advantage (even a small one) exists at this stage. So, the best would be to say that we are waiting for more evidence to see whether a theoretical advantage becomes salient and remains resilient as the meta shifts. I also wouldn't even say that you end up even, a Z that can get a 4th up and transitions into ultras and infestors with proper upgrades has a pretty formidable army from a T point of view (I still hold that SK had that Newkirk map despite losing too many bases to the initial push, he just didn't use all his infestor fungals and Innovation kited his ultras to death). Unfortunately, we do not usually see games where transitions happen. When Life beats such parade-push game-plans, he usually just camps production with his muta-ling-bane and the terran taps out.
I really like how Jaedong dealt with this type of push. He'd split of a small group of lings. Then when the Terran started pushing out, the lings went to the Terran third and the flock of mutas started killing scvs in the natural. All the while JD still managed to not die to the massive Terran army in the middle of the map. It was really impressive.
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On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-)
You mean this one?
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf.
First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not.
Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup.
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On August 06 2013 04:55 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-) You mean this one? Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf. First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not. Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup.
Energy buff but slower projectile? I think that is a nerf to Zerg... t.t
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On August 06 2013 05:00 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:55 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-) You mean this one? On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf. First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not. Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup. Energy buff but slower projectile? I think that is a nerf to Zerg... t.t
Big nerf. It's hard enough to snare mutas with fungal as it is. Pathogen glands means you can fire off a fungal right away so not much upside to this.
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EPT
