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On August 06 2013 05:00 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:55 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-) You mean this one? On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf. First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not. Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup. Energy buff but slower projectile? I think that is a nerf to Zerg... t.t
Why do you think its a Nerf?
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On August 06 2013 05:05 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:00 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 04:55 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-) You mean this one? On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:
[quote]
your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf. First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not. Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup. Energy buff but slower projectile? I think that is a nerf to Zerg... t.t Why do you think its a Nerf?
I actually think its a nerf but makes the ability imbalanced in ZvP. In ZvT it will be very hard to hit the fungal after your suggestion, but once it hits, its basically game over. In ZvP its harder to dodge the fungal so chainfungals would be insane. At least my thoughts on it
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On August 06 2013 05:05 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:00 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 04:55 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-) You mean this one? On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:
[quote]
your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf. First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not. Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup. Energy buff but slower projectile? I think that is a nerf to Zerg... t.t Why do you think its a Nerf?
would make smaller numbers of infestors weaker, since 2-3 fungals would be easier to dodge. wouldn't have any effect on big numbers of infesters, because you can spam fungals to have secure hits and energy doesn't play that big of a role then.
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On August 06 2013 05:07 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:05 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 05:00 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 04:55 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-) You mean this one? On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Win rates for these qualifiers:
PvT
59–40 (60%)
PvZ
53–53 (50%)
TvZ
47–46 (51%)
10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague.
And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf. First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not. Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup. Energy buff but slower projectile? I think that is a nerf to Zerg... t.t Why do you think its a Nerf? would make smaller numbers of infestors weaker, since 2-3 fungals would be easier to dodge. wouldn't have any effect on big numbers of infesters, because you can spam fungals to have secure hits and energy doesn't play that big of a role then.
I didn't mean so slow that terran can dodge it easily. You can carpet fungal an area and terran won't have place to run. You can zone out mmm to take out widow mines. Just think, 4 infestors with ~100 energy can make only 4 fungals, with this tweak 8! Its world of difference. You can use fungals to halt mmm from advancing whilst your army attacks at other place.
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On August 06 2013 05:07 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:05 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 05:00 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 04:55 saddaromma wrote:On August 06 2013 04:29 NarutO wrote:
Once again a completely reasonable post of me half a site long gets ignored by everyone :-) You mean this one? On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Win rates for these qualifiers:
PvT
59–40 (60%)
PvZ
53–53 (50%)
TvZ
47–46 (51%)
10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague.
And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran. WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg. Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc) We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran. The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability. As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf. First of all, you tell us that in ZvT, both sides require equal skill, you made a good analytical post explaining it but I didn't see any proof. Similarly I could say protoss deathball is as hard as MMMVG, since you have to: avoid emps with HTs, position stalkers under vikings, send forward zealots and use MS correctly. But we all know its not true, terran has no room for mistake whereas protoss only needs to make a couple of good aoe damage. I don't agree with you and I don't have opinion on this matter. Maybe its equal maybe not. Here is a tweak you asked (I'm not sure how you can tweak without buffing or nerfing, maybe you meant a very small change). How about making fungal cost 50 energy, but projectile is slower (so that terran could react and dodge it). Requires skills from both sides, and diversifies the matchup. Energy buff but slower projectile? I think that is a nerf to Zerg... t.t Why do you think its a Nerf? I actually think its a nerf but makes the ability imbalanced in ZvP. In ZvT it will be very hard to hit the fungal after your suggestion, but once it hits, its basically game over. In ZvP its harder to dodge the fungal so chainfungals would be insane. At least my thoughts on it
All the more reason to stop 1a-ing to victory for protosses.
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Hey, I thought as I participate so much in those discussions, I could as well write up a patch with (hopefully not gamebreaking, but hopefully diversity enforcing) changes that I would like to see.
Zerg:
Overseer
+ Show Spoiler +- Speed increased from 1.875 (+0.875) to 2.25 (+1.25)
This allows Overseers to keep up with mutalisks when harassing a Terran that uses widow mines.
Viper
+ Show Spoiler +- Blinding Cloud reduces range by 5 instead of to melee. Least acquired range by affected units is still melee range.
- Radius increased to 3.0 from 2.0.
- Energy cost increased to 125 from 100.
This should make the Viper better against mobile troops which still get their range reduced to melee or very low range. They take longer to dodge the clouds. Meanwhile the Blinding Cloud does not completely shut down stationary defenses and longrange units anymore. Hopefully the Viper will now be better against Terran bio and Zerg Roach/Hydra styles, while not shutting down Terran Siege Tanks completely.
Roach
+ Show Spoiler +- The Tunneling Claws upgrade now allows roaches to move at their normal movement speed while burrowed.
- It now requires a Hive to upgrade.
This should help zergs harassing when going for roachbased styles in the later stages of the game.
Hydralisk
+ Show Spoiler +- The Grooved Spines upgrade now requires a Hive to upgrade
- Its effect now grants +2 range instead of +1 range.
- Research cost increased to 200/200 from 150/150.
The Hydralisk is still underperforming in the Zerg lategame, especially against Terran bio-play and protoss air-play with splash support. The extra range should deviate them more from those units and keep those fragile units a little further away from attackers, while also helping zerg to deal with Terran dropplay without going mutalisks.
Protoss:
Mothership Core
+ Show Spoiler +- Photon Overcharge damage changed from 20 to 15 (+5vs armored).
Photon Overcharge is currently a little bit too powerful at shutting down early aggression and harassment, especially in Terran vs Protoss.
Immortal
+ Show Spoiler +- Damage changed from 20(+30vs armored) to 30(+20vs massive).
- Build time reduced from 55 to 45 seconds.
Immortals are currently very powerful at breaking defensive positions early on, but not very useful against nonarmored units. This change should reduce the viability of Immortalbased frontal aggression, while allowing a Protoss to delay their hightech units a little bit longer in the midgame.
Carrier
+ Show Spoiler +- Interceptor damage changed from 5 to 4(+2vs light).
Carriers have seen little play up to now. This change should help Protoss Airarmies when dealing with lategame Terran bio-play and lategame zerg Locust/Hydralisk armies and give the Carrier a role within the Protoss Airarmies. On the flipside, Carriers will now be worse against Terran Factory and Air Units, especially Thors and Vikings.
Robotics Bay
+ Show Spoiler +- The gravitic boost and the gravitic drive upgrade are merged into one upgrade.
- Its costs stay at 100/100 and its build time stays at 80 seconds.
This should open up Protoss harassment and reactionary based play a little more.
Terran:
Ghost
+ Show Spoiler +- Damage changed from 10(+10vs light) to 10(+10vs biological).
Ghosts are currently only used against Protoss. This change won't touch their exciting relations with the currently used Protoss armies, but may help bringing this unit back in the Terran vs Zerg matchup.
Hellion/Hellbat
+ Show Spoiler +- The Infernal Pre-Igniter and the Transformation Servos Upgrade are merged into one upgrade.
- Its costs are 200/200 and its build time stays at 110 seconds and requires an armory.
Siege Tank
+ Show Spoiler +The Siege Tanks attack undergoes the following changes: - Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
- Splash damage percentages changed:
100% damage area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored)
50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored)
25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
- Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lvsrgoR.jpg) The problem with buffing tanks is that - as has been showed in numerous TvZs and TvTs - its main use is splash support in biomech builds. Tanks are mainly being used to kill marines, zerglings/banelings, so that your own marines can have a ball afterwards. A buff to the tank should be done in a way that does not buff it vs those units it is already good against.
It should be done in a way that the tank is better against the (ground) units it is currently mediocre or straight up bad right now:
zealots, immortals, colossi, ultralisks, Archons, hellbats. Those units have one thing in common: they don't clump as hard as the smaller units against which the tank is really good. Therefore it would be logical to increase the main target damage, but leave the absolute splash damage the same.
- Thanks to NarutO for giving me the idea to post my tweaks. (though some of the stuff is a little more than small - but most of them minus the tank, the viper and the immortal hopefully not overly gamechanging)
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On August 06 2013 03:43 Mattumsfox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 23:45 GhostOwl wrote:On August 05 2013 22:49 NarutO wrote:
You keep ignoring my points. I called your post uninformed and dumb because it fucking is. The only reason you call me biased towards Terran is because you cannot stand the more worthy opinion/analyses of a higher level player. Why dont I call out others on that the same way I do with you?
Sorry to say but I dont hate at all but you simply overdo it. I Could break that game down for you to the smallest detail and in the end you would say terran op. Like LSN tells us what innovation was doing wasnt impressive. Perfect control and multitasking but for a simple mind it sure looks like nothing impressive. Okay, my posts are uninformed and dumb because I don't see things your way through your Terran-colored lens. No, that's not the reason I call you biased toward Terran. You simply ignore the fact that Terran is superior in TvZ, and you disregard Terran cost effiency and winrates. You ignore all data and winrates until you land on one that makes TvZ look as balanced as possible, which turned out to be 32-24. And then we point out that even that number is not balanced, its 62% and then you blame the sample size afterwards. Just the stuff you do, it's incredibly one-sided and you choose to ignore anything that makes your race look in a bad light. I mean, what kind of guy says 32-24 is balanced? Anyway, the way you rage at me because I missed your discussion earlier, just shows what kind of classy "high level player" you are. Level doesn't always correspond with legit analysis. Some high level players might be inclined to support broken things just because its their race. For example, Flash supported the idea of tanks becoming 2 supply. He's Flash, who has better analysis than probably everyone on this thread, but on the other hand, he has a motive to support things that would better Terran. Just using this as an analogy out there. EDIT: Imagine if Tanks DID become 2 supply. Shudder...I don't even wanna think about that. You say he ignores winrates and he is biased. There are 2 sources for statistics right now, aligulac and chaosterran. According to aligulac the game is well balanced and zerg is improving in ZvT with each passing month. So I assume you aren't using these statistics because they don't support your argument. Therefore I assume you are using chaosterran's statistics that shows TvZ is in favor of terran. This is where your extreme bias shows though. Last month when chaosterran posted the statistics and they showed ZvT was actually in favor of zerg this was your reply. Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 21:35 GhostOwl wrote:
I don't trust this data, especially from a guy called "ChaosTerran", no offense.
HoTS has messed up balance heavily...and it's currently a big mess right now. So when the statistics show that the matchup is fine you don't trust the data but when it shows terran is favored that same data is perfectly fine. So for you to call anyone biased is extremely laughable.
And then there's this data which we can easily verify:
On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me.
Naruto keeps bringing up the WCG qualifers but those are QUALIFERS and it's just ONE tournament. Yeah, there was one tournament where the TvZ balance was near 50%, great? I just showed you 3 tournaments/season. He knitpicks data like crazy....
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@big j: you just nerfed the viper lol. instead of 2 clouds with 2,0 radius now it has 1 with 3,0 + gets worth vs colossus and tanks....just let it stay 100 energy. some other changes are good, some arent.
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On August 06 2013 05:36 Decendos wrote:
@big j: you just nerfed the viper lol. instead of 2 clouds with 2,0 radius now it has 1 with 3,0 + gets worth vs colossus and tanks....just let it stay 100 energy. some other changes are good, some arent.
And if you do the math how much more R²*Pi with R=3 than R=2 is you may understand what a brutal buff that is to the area the new Cloud covers.
It's more than doubled and a Viper for sure shouldn't have two of those (just think about how brutal Time Warp is and imagine what would happen if Protoss could built multiple MsCs for Time Warps alone).
Also, a Viper would still have 1blinding cloud + 1abduct on 200energy, which is very powerful (and should be for such an hightech, "no damage", expensive spellcaster)
For what you dislike, I'd like to hear what and why.
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On August 06 2013 04:27 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 04:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 04:13 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 04:08 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:52 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:47 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 03:27 RaFox17 wrote:On August 06 2013 03:14 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
How are these even remotely arguments?
1) No you do not. There are roach-hydra and roach-ling-bane compositions that work. Also, there are muta styles where you only get 10 muta for drop defense. That's entirely different from the 30+ muta styles we also see. Now, what I don't get is why you said this. What if Z has to go for Muta. What's wrong with that? T has to go marines or die, has to go marauder or dies, has to go WM or die (in the standard meta). Yet, there are also meching terrans and then you don't have to go muta at all. Why is this point relevant?
Ok, let's start with this point, try to make it into a real argument. And return for the other sentences later. Quality over quantity, I think.
I would say that your marine/marauder/mine argument shows the difference in the amount of gas that one side has to use more than the other. Mutas, banes, infestors, hydras etc are quite gas heavy. This makes 4th base a must if you don´t go early all-in. This "imba" in the gas-usage leads to terran having a huge advantage in long games. I really don´t think that anyone can really denie this. Pointing out that a T has to build X unit wasn't a counterargument. It was an illustration of how a unit can be necessary and be entirely alright. I'd like to hear Decendos argumentation regarding why he thinks having to build mutas (a questionable premise, but, hey, why not) makes TvZ imba in favour of terran. I can most assuredly deny (mind the spelling) that a gas-differential gives terran a huge advantage in long games. The same arguments have been made a thousand times. The races are designed differently, just like in BW, Z gets more and earlier bases and thus access to more gas. To counter-balance this, T is more mineral-starved. On the other hand, Z gets to use more gas in units, while T has to dump more gas into production buildings. The races are just different, so if you want to make the "imba" argument, you have to flesh out how (considering the base disadvantage and building disadvantage that T gets), gas differentials make TvZ imba. You should also adds illustrating games and statistics to prove your point. The point being that terran is extremely strong in the mid-game. If zerg can´t get his 4th saturated the he is screwed. Terran can pressure it with mineral heavy units while zerg defends with gas, without proper gas income. While this is going terran can use his gas to get upgrades. See the problem?? Not saying the game is broken or anything but this gives a terran huge andvantage that is really hard to break. The solution has been early all-ins as macro game means you have to outplay your opponent royally. Ok, so you're not talking about mutas anymore, right? Yeah, the standard way Innovation plays is to do his multi-tasking parade-push to kill the fourth of Z. That's his usual game-plan and he is great at that. As with all timings, if you don't beat it, you either die or are far behind (in this case, if you don't crush the first attack, you will fall behind mostly on upgrades). I entirely agree. Now, what makes this timing attack imba? Are you implying that only innovation can do this? Is this some mythical super-korean tactic that is easy to defend if non-innovation does it? 4m is pretty hard to play against and only totally crushing the terran army can you get even or slightly ahead. WM make it that small mistake ends the game, whereas if zerg wins the engagement the terran might be slightly behind. See the difference between the 2 outcomes? I wasn't implying anything. I merely provided illustration for your claim to make it explicit what you're talking about. I'd like to point out that a timing is defined as something that kills you unless you defend properly. And if it were an all-in, it would kill the instigator when defended. That's the meaning of the term. So, terran has this one timing, it's not crushing zergs across the board (unless it's Innovation doing it), it's not played in all TvZs. I repeat, what makes it imba? Defend it and you are even. Fail to hold your 4th and the death animation begins. Again i don´t think the game is broken as you would know if you had read my post´s properly. I simply think that t is favored over zerg. Hopefully zerg´s will find out a way to even things in normal macro games, but this is my opinion at the moment. Just to make things easier for you i repeat: Don´t think there is anything broken or really imba in tvz, only advantage terran. (tennis term) Fifteen love ^^ But I do not agree. There is no clear sign that such a racial advantage (even a small one) exists at this stage. So, the best would be to say that we are waiting for more evidence to see whether a theoretical advantage becomes salient and remains resilient as the meta shifts. I also wouldn't even say that you end up even, a Z that can get a 4th up and transitions into ultras and infestors with proper upgrades has a pretty formidable army from a T point of view (I still hold that SK had that Newkirk map despite losing too many bases to the initial push, he just didn't use all his infestor fungals and Innovation kited his ultras to death). Unfortunately, we do not usually see games where transitions happen. When Life beats such parade-push game-plans, he usually just camps production with his muta-ling-bane and the terran taps out. It seems that we have hit a wall. I will retreat to my underground lair with my zerg comrades and figure out a way to chance your misguided beliefs and ways. Until the next win rates are out we might meet again.
He he ^^ I'll be ready!
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On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:05 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 06 2013 02:55 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:52 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea. WCG KOREA QUALIFIER. What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data. Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite. okay here are the arguments...once again: - you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran.
Yes, you don't have to go mutas, but Zerg has no alternative. Roach style requires you to be heavily ahead in Terran macro, or else Roach army vs Bio army on EQUAL macro means Roach style cannot win. Additionally, Terran can pickup-their bio army if the fight is going to look like its going to go bad for them - and escape. Mutas are a MUST, if you want to punish Terran for bad positioning or engagement. Otherwise, Terran can just pick up their losing army everytime and not lose anything. Especially since the infestor nerf. The only way Zergs can avoid going mutas if fungal got buffed again.
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:
WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg.
WD are not SUPPOSED to counter everything, they are used as support units. On the contrary, widow mines is more luck-dependent and less skill-dependent than any other unit because of their random firing. You try to make it sound like unit is good only in the hands of a master player..what a load of bullshit. No one complained about just Widow mines alone. We complained about how it's being used in combination with the current bio army. Tanks could be picked off if the bio army had to retreat because the unsiege took a while, but mines can just pop off and run with the bio army.
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:
Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc)
Of course Zergs are not always forced on the defensive..the matchup would be even more broken if that was the case. No, the real reason aggressive Zergs are lacking is because Terran army is too cost efficient and mules. Innovation vs Soulkey showed us that Zergs can devote to a semi all-in and lose the game EVEN with massive SCV kills because mules will compensate , and Terran army with good micro can just win the fuck in terms of trading. (Imagine 1 marauder tanking several baneling hits while the bio army just pummels the hell outta the Z army).
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:
We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran.
No, 4M is played because it is the best option, and there is no reason to invest in multiple starports and wait forever for BCs to come out, when you can crush your opponent with basic marines, marauders, mines, and medivacs. It's way more mobile, and it's much more forgiving in terms of losing them. The only race that can kill other races's T3 with their T1. Why the hell would you wait till T3 to kill your opponent when can you do it easily with your T1?
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:
The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability.
A Zerg hatchery will pop is a few seconds after the Terran army goes to it. A Terran expansion can be saved easily with just lifting the OC. I've seen many many games where Terran loses a bunch of medivacs and still comes back as strong as ever. If a Zerg loses his mutas before he can successfully transition into hive tech, he will most likely lose the game. Terran has no "lose these units and you die" in TvZ compared to Zerg in the same matchup. Terran is much easily forgiven than Zerg in this matchup.
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote:
As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf.
Of course you don't want a buff or nerf. A buff to Terran would mean that even the biased posters can't deny the matchup is broken because it becomes so glaringly obvious. And as for nerfs, you would not even want a height nerf for a marine. That's pretty much your reputation on this thread.
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On August 06 2013 02:32 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:16 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 02:00 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 00:53 Decendos wrote:
@naruto: you should look at where the Z wins come from. so lets remove innvoation, flash, life and soulkey. are the stats correct now in your opinion? or is it that flash is better than soulkey (which he isnt atm)? like i am sure you find a weird T biased solution. like you have a weird biased argument for everything. just you are so extremely biased you dont even think about maybe T really is too strong or Z too weak right now. Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother? your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine. Win rates for these qualifiers: PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%) 10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague. And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say. Soulkey plays Supernova tonight. Let's see how he does when he's not playing vs someone who was 4-0 vs him even in Wings of Liberty (Innovation). And Ghostowl, you say Terran has had higher winrate vs Zerg for all of HOTS, and that can only be concluded from aligulac. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/ . Which does not support your claims for imbalance, actually the opposite.
Ew aligulac. Anyway this was a post directly taken from your blog:
On August 05 2013 08:11 Rhaegal wrote:
From an outside view, one would think I had a good life. I go to university for free, I actually get paid to go (mother's work pays for half, grant pays for the other half + refund), get good grades with almost no effort, and have a good family.
But, I feel so out of place in society. My main issue is that nothing appeals to me, be it television, SC2, reading, hanging out with friends, or anything really. Most of my day is spent just refreshing reddit and tl, with no ambition. School means nothing to me because I can't see myself doing anything with my degree.
I don't see myself as a normal person. I look at people with drive and ambition, who care about things like their hygiene or their future, and I'm just perplexed because nothing in life seems to matter to me. I gain pleasure from so few things. I wish I could choose something in life, say writing, fitness, or Starcraft, and commit myself to it, but I just can't. Honestly, I just troll internet forums all day as the attention I get from it is the only thing that makes me smile.
Is this how most people are, utterly lacking in desires, but they force themselves to go in with life? Or am I not a member of society as I have always feared/suspected?
Stop trolling this thread, please. It's getting old.
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On August 06 2013 05:26 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 03:43 Mattumsfox wrote:On August 05 2013 23:45 GhostOwl wrote:On August 05 2013 22:49 NarutO wrote:
You keep ignoring my points. I called your post uninformed and dumb because it fucking is. The only reason you call me biased towards Terran is because you cannot stand the more worthy opinion/analyses of a higher level player. Why dont I call out others on that the same way I do with you?
Sorry to say but I dont hate at all but you simply overdo it. I Could break that game down for you to the smallest detail and in the end you would say terran op. Like LSN tells us what innovation was doing wasnt impressive. Perfect control and multitasking but for a simple mind it sure looks like nothing impressive. Okay, my posts are uninformed and dumb because I don't see things your way through your Terran-colored lens. No, that's not the reason I call you biased toward Terran. You simply ignore the fact that Terran is superior in TvZ, and you disregard Terran cost effiency and winrates. You ignore all data and winrates until you land on one that makes TvZ look as balanced as possible, which turned out to be 32-24. And then we point out that even that number is not balanced, its 62% and then you blame the sample size afterwards. Just the stuff you do, it's incredibly one-sided and you choose to ignore anything that makes your race look in a bad light. I mean, what kind of guy says 32-24 is balanced? Anyway, the way you rage at me because I missed your discussion earlier, just shows what kind of classy "high level player" you are. Level doesn't always correspond with legit analysis. Some high level players might be inclined to support broken things just because its their race. For example, Flash supported the idea of tanks becoming 2 supply. He's Flash, who has better analysis than probably everyone on this thread, but on the other hand, he has a motive to support things that would better Terran. Just using this as an analogy out there. EDIT: Imagine if Tanks DID become 2 supply. Shudder...I don't even wanna think about that. You say he ignores winrates and he is biased. There are 2 sources for statistics right now, aligulac and chaosterran. According to aligulac the game is well balanced and zerg is improving in ZvT with each passing month. So I assume you aren't using these statistics because they don't support your argument. Therefore I assume you are using chaosterran's statistics that shows TvZ is in favor of terran. This is where your extreme bias shows though. Last month when chaosterran posted the statistics and they showed ZvT was actually in favor of zerg this was your reply. On July 01 2013 21:35 GhostOwl wrote:
I don't trust this data, especially from a guy called "ChaosTerran", no offense.
HoTS has messed up balance heavily...and it's currently a big mess right now. So when the statistics show that the matchup is fine you don't trust the data but when it shows terran is favored that same data is perfectly fine. So for you to call anyone biased is extremely laughable. And then there's this data which we can easily verify: Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. Naruto keeps bringing up the WCG qualifers but those are QUALIFERS and it's just ONE tournament. Yeah, there was one tournament where the TvZ balance was near 50%, great? I just showed you 3 tournaments/season. He knitpicks data like crazy....
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3714_2013_WCS_S1:_GSL_Code_S
50-50
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3802_2013_WCS_S1:_GSL_Code_A
36-64 in favor of Z
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3801_2013_WCS_S1:_GSL_Qualifier
50-50
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/4026_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL_Chall
43-57 in favor of Z
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/4002_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL_Qual
43-57 in favor of Z
I can play the "pick your tournament which underlines your point" game too.
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On August 06 2013 05:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:36 Decendos wrote:
@big j: you just nerfed the viper lol. instead of 2 clouds with 2,0 radius now it has 1 with 3,0 + gets worth vs colossus and tanks....just let it stay 100 energy. some other changes are good, some arent. And if you do the math how much more R²*Pi with R=3 than R=2 is you may understand what a brutal buff that is to the area the new Cloud covers. It's more than doubled and a Viper for sure shouldn't have two of those (just think about how brutal Time Warp is and imagine what would happen if Protoss could built multiple MsCs for Time Warps alone). Also, a Viper would still have 1blinding cloud + 1abduct on 200energy, which is very powerful (and should be for such an hightech, "no damage", expensive spellcaster) For what you dislike, I'd like to hear what and why.
3^2 = 9. 2*2^2 = 8. not that big of a difference + the nerfs and you cant do 2 clouds which is better than 1 big cloud especially in chokes. wont happen.
oh and omg i would trade timewarp everytime vs blinding cloud. + the abduct is horrible vs mobile armies like stalker or MMM or roach hydra which is what blinding cloud sucks against.
On August 06 2013 05:53 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:26 GhostOwl wrote:On August 06 2013 03:43 Mattumsfox wrote:On August 05 2013 23:45 GhostOwl wrote:On August 05 2013 22:49 NarutO wrote:
You keep ignoring my points. I called your post uninformed and dumb because it fucking is. The only reason you call me biased towards Terran is because you cannot stand the more worthy opinion/analyses of a higher level player. Why dont I call out others on that the same way I do with you?
Sorry to say but I dont hate at all but you simply overdo it. I Could break that game down for you to the smallest detail and in the end you would say terran op. Like LSN tells us what innovation was doing wasnt impressive. Perfect control and multitasking but for a simple mind it sure looks like nothing impressive. Okay, my posts are uninformed and dumb because I don't see things your way through your Terran-colored lens. No, that's not the reason I call you biased toward Terran. You simply ignore the fact that Terran is superior in TvZ, and you disregard Terran cost effiency and winrates. You ignore all data and winrates until you land on one that makes TvZ look as balanced as possible, which turned out to be 32-24. And then we point out that even that number is not balanced, its 62% and then you blame the sample size afterwards. Just the stuff you do, it's incredibly one-sided and you choose to ignore anything that makes your race look in a bad light. I mean, what kind of guy says 32-24 is balanced? Anyway, the way you rage at me because I missed your discussion earlier, just shows what kind of classy "high level player" you are. Level doesn't always correspond with legit analysis. Some high level players might be inclined to support broken things just because its their race. For example, Flash supported the idea of tanks becoming 2 supply. He's Flash, who has better analysis than probably everyone on this thread, but on the other hand, he has a motive to support things that would better Terran. Just using this as an analogy out there. EDIT: Imagine if Tanks DID become 2 supply. Shudder...I don't even wanna think about that. You say he ignores winrates and he is biased. There are 2 sources for statistics right now, aligulac and chaosterran. According to aligulac the game is well balanced and zerg is improving in ZvT with each passing month. So I assume you aren't using these statistics because they don't support your argument. Therefore I assume you are using chaosterran's statistics that shows TvZ is in favor of terran. This is where your extreme bias shows though. Last month when chaosterran posted the statistics and they showed ZvT was actually in favor of zerg this was your reply. On July 01 2013 21:35 GhostOwl wrote:
I don't trust this data, especially from a guy called "ChaosTerran", no offense.
HoTS has messed up balance heavily...and it's currently a big mess right now. So when the statistics show that the matchup is fine you don't trust the data but when it shows terran is favored that same data is perfectly fine. So for you to call anyone biased is extremely laughable. And then there's this data which we can easily verify: On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. Naruto keeps bringing up the WCG qualifers but those are QUALIFERS and it's just ONE tournament. Yeah, there was one tournament where the TvZ balance was near 50%, great? I just showed you 3 tournaments/season. He knitpicks data like crazy.... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3714_2013_WCS_S1:_GSL_Code_S50-50 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3802_2013_WCS_S1:_GSL_Code_A36-64 in favor of Z http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3801_2013_WCS_S1:_GSL_Qualifier50-50 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/4026_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL_Chall43-57 in favor of Z http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/4002_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL_Qual43-57 in favor of Z I can play the "pick your tournament which underlines your point" game too.
please post more tournaments from april and may....
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On August 06 2013 05:48 GhostOwl wrote:
Tanks could be picked off if the bio army had to retreat because the unsiege took a while, but mines can just pop off and run with the bio army.
Tell us more about those 2.81 ms units unburrowing in the midst of a swarm of 4.7/6.11 ms units and somehow "running with the bio army" without being destroyed.
On August 06 2013 05:48 GhostOwl wrote:
A Terran expansion can be saved easily with just lifting the OC.
Tell us more about that 0.94 ms building "easily" surviving against the 4 ms Mutalisk fleet. Or maybe OCs also have boost in your imaginary world?
You're simply covering yourself with ridicule with such statements, just learn what the match-up really looks like instead of wildly theorycrafting unlikely situations.
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On August 06 2013 06:07 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:45 Big J wrote:On August 06 2013 05:36 Decendos wrote:
@big j: you just nerfed the viper lol. instead of 2 clouds with 2,0 radius now it has 1 with 3,0 + gets worth vs colossus and tanks....just let it stay 100 energy. some other changes are good, some arent. And if you do the math how much more R²*Pi with R=3 than R=2 is you may understand what a brutal buff that is to the area the new Cloud covers. It's more than doubled and a Viper for sure shouldn't have two of those (just think about how brutal Time Warp is and imagine what would happen if Protoss could built multiple MsCs for Time Warps alone). Also, a Viper would still have 1blinding cloud + 1abduct on 200energy, which is very powerful (and should be for such an hightech, "no damage", expensive spellcaster) For what you dislike, I'd like to hear what and why. 3^2 = 9. 2*2^2 = 8. not that big of a difference + the nerfs and you cant do 2 clouds which is better than 1 big cloud especially in chokes. wont happen. oh and omg i would trade timewarp everytime vs blinding cloud. + the abduct is horrible vs mobile armies like stalker or MMM or roach hydra which is what blinding cloud sucks against.
Well, but that's the point. 1new blinding cloud is bigger than 2current ones (though the distance to run out of it increases only linearily). And after casting it you still have 1viper with 75energy, assuming maxed energy. Assuming not maxed on energy (which is even with the feeding quite frequent as it takes a lot of time to run home to your buildings again and again) it is straight up better than the current cloud at dealing with the mobile troops we are talking about.
And abduct isn't that bad against those units. Pulling a stalker, marauder, medivac, hydralisk is not the reason to build vipers, but if there is nothing else and the blinding cloud is already useful, may as well use it on those units.
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Northern Ireland25245 Posts
A few things I feel are neglected when it comes to the Inno vs Soulkey Proleague match. I didn't catch it live, and viewed it after seeing a lot of LR QQ and was a bit confused as to the reality. Went back again yesterday and rewatched it again and my mystery is still there.
1. Soulkey was behind in drones to Inno's SCVs. Not a massive amount, but I think it was 5 fewer drones than SCVs for a short period before he launched his attack, and that doesn't factor in the additional income from mules that actually makes that quite a deficit.
2. Soulkey made a lot of worker kills, but they weren't simultaneous. I went to watch the VoD initially thinking that Inno had lost all his SCVs in one go, and came back. Wasn't the case.
3. Soulkey cut tech a bit to execute those attacks and was thus behind in upgrades a bit, which made Inno's bio a lot more efficient when it hit 3/3.
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On August 06 2013 06:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
A few things I feel are neglected when it comes to the Inno vs Soulkey Proleague match. I didn't catch it live, and viewed it after seeing a lot of LR QQ and was a bit confused as to the reality. Went back again yesterday and rewatched it again and my mystery is still there.
1. Soulkey was behind in drones to Inno's SCVs. Not a massive amount, but I think it was 5 fewer drones than SCVs for a short period before he launched his attack, and that doesn't factor in the additional income from mules that actually makes that quite a deficit.
2. Soulkey made a lot of worker kills, but they weren't simultaneous. I went to watch the VoD initially thinking that Inno had lost all his SCVs in one go, and came back. Wasn't the case.
3. Soulkey cut tech a bit to execute those attacks and was thus behind in upgrades a bit, which made Inno's bio a lot more efficient when it hit 3/3.
Yeah, I agree. It was a bigass 3base 1-1 allinish timing, Innovation defended and was ahead afterwards, even though SK did some damage. From there on it was a pretty standard TvZ but with the Terran having an upgrade and tech advantage and thus wearing SK down.
Btw, I wonder how this would have worked out with burrow, as it would force the Terran to scan and thus mule less after the attack. And in those attacks you can often just burrow small groups of lings which would be cleaned up anyways without any further damage, which then either leads to scans instead of mules or damage when the terran tries to moveout. Also landmines. With that kind of aggression you can place baneling landmines very comfortably, something that isn't possible when you are only on the backfoot all game long.
At least I have been playing around with similar styles on Whirlwind + burrow lately and I think it is really potent.
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Omg, all the Terran bashing in this thread. Well, I can understand why zerg players complain, then just abandon muta ling bling for roach bane allins vs 3 cc's. But protoss players?? lol gimmeh a break, tvp is a total joke to play as terran when you're not at the top.
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EPT
