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On July 25 2013 21:11 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 21:01 HerrHorst wrote:On July 25 2013 20:57 LSN wrote:
Instead of watching exciting games we see terran easy mode easy win mechanics in 50% of games where terran is involved. The next dude who wants to troll in this thread? It's getting old. Well why don't you just watch it yourself? Its not about terran winning, its about HOW terran wins games and how easy it is to take the instant win, not just an advantage. Why are none of you terran guys seeing this? And the fourth base didnt make any difference there, I have seen this vs 3 base protoss alot of times too.
He had no units and his storms were not ready. He took a gamble and Bomber punished it. You will see this in every matchup all the time. In TvZ Terrans die en masses lately because they thought 3CC+2Ebay is a good idea.
And it's actually very funny when Protoss whine about all-ins. Against the push in game three Terrans died with 6 bunkers. Protoss is the All-In race taking "easy" wins with it all the time.
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On July 25 2013 21:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 20:42 MTAC wrote:Nice. After 20-ish whiny pages of local terran experts declaring terran all-ins vs protoss dead and buried, Bomber starts with proxy reaper and is promptly ahead. When medivacs are out, terran can harass. Before MSC is out, terran can harass. Between that, terran is stucked on his base. It's the only thing the "local terran experts" says. It's also the thing terran KR progamer are saying, Major too. Just watch the games and see Protoss getting MAXIMUM one sentry before 10. It's tweaking the tech timings. And that has never been different. Terran has always started to move out when medivacs came out in TvP and not before, unless it was some form of cheesy play. Up to that point, Terran was always stuck on his base due to stalkers kiting marines endlessly. So the thing that has changed is basically BOs. Protoss now get faster tech out. Does this lead to Protoss being to strong later on? From watching highlevel TvPs currently, certainly not. The buffs to Terran bio/biomech in HotS TvP prove to be enough to keep them even with the faster Protoss techplay in HotS. Wrong: 3 rax add-ons (Marines/Marauders stim timing), 4-5 rax (Marines), (threats of) Tank pushes and Banshees transitions existed in WoL after 1 rax FE or CC first. They're now all dead to one button.
And Protoss could do 4gates and 6gates and 3nexus into 8gate in WoL and we don't see those builds anymore either due to HotS changes.
--> and those things were as popular as your examples in WoL, they were basically dead and irrelevant towards the end.
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the fourth base was already mining for quite some time, so it paid back for half of its costs. Anyway a few stalker, a colossus or some zealots more would not have made any difference, sry.
And bombers scouting information were that protoss was on 3 base not 4. You just doe these kind of all-ins when you are 90% sure you win it. So what do you say about bomber being 90% sure to win this vs a 3 base protoss? What does your 4 base point matter anymore? Right, nothing at all... D:
If he thought protoss was on 4 base instead of 3 he just would have sent 1 marine scouting the expansion to make it sure. In this case however it was absolutely unimportant for him, because he abused another almost unstoppable terran easy win mechanic that does not care if opponent is on 3 or 4 base.
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On July 25 2013 21:21 LSN wrote:
the fourth base was already mining for quite some time, so it paid back for half of its costs. Anyway a few stalker, a colossus or some zealots more would not have made any difference, sry.
And bombers scouting information were that protoss was on 3 base not 4. You just doe these kind of all-ins when you are 90% sure you win it. So what do you say about bomber being 90% sure to win this vs a 3 base protoss? What does your 4 base point matter anymore? Right, nothing at all... D:
Oh shut up. He delayed his Templar/Archon tech and got punished for it. Nothing more to say about that game. Whether or not you like SCV pulls is just as much a question of taste as with any other attack.
And yes, he didn't scout that 4th base. Those SCV pulls are a strong standard timing. Building a 4th is just gambling that he doesn't do that timing. First guessed wrong and died.
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On July 25 2013 21:21 LSN wrote:
the fourth base was already mining for quite some time, so it paid back for half of its costs. Anyway a few stalker, a colossus or some zealots more would not have made any difference, sry.
And bombers scouting information were that protoss was on 3 base not 4. You just doe these kind of all-ins when you are 90% sure you win it. So what do you say about bomber being 90% sure to win this vs a 3 base protoss? What does your 4 base point matter anymore? Right, nothing at all... D:
Are you joking? Bomber smelled weakness and punished it and the defense was much weaker because he delayed everything for a fast fourth.
Every all-in can be succesful if you don't defend it right or too late. As I said Protoss all-in all the time and win with it.
Pls, stop making a fool of yourself.
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On July 25 2013 21:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 21:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 25 2013 20:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 20:42 MTAC wrote:Nice. After 20-ish whiny pages of local terran experts declaring terran all-ins vs protoss dead and buried, Bomber starts with proxy reaper and is promptly ahead. When medivacs are out, terran can harass. Before MSC is out, terran can harass. Between that, terran is stucked on his base. It's the only thing the "local terran experts" says. It's also the thing terran KR progamer are saying, Major too. Just watch the games and see Protoss getting MAXIMUM one sentry before 10. It's tweaking the tech timings. And that has never been different. Terran has always started to move out when medivacs came out in TvP and not before, unless it was some form of cheesy play. Up to that point, Terran was always stuck on his base due to stalkers kiting marines endlessly. So the thing that has changed is basically BOs. Protoss now get faster tech out. Does this lead to Protoss being to strong later on? From watching highlevel TvPs currently, certainly not. The buffs to Terran bio/biomech in HotS TvP prove to be enough to keep them even with the faster Protoss techplay in HotS. Wrong: 3 rax add-ons (Marines/Marauders stim timing), 4-5 rax (Marines), (threats of) Tank pushes and Banshees transitions existed in WoL after 1 rax FE or CC first. They're now all dead to one button. And Protoss could do 4gates and 6gates and 3nexus into 8gate in WoL and we don't see those builds anymore either due to HotS changes. --> and those things were as popular as your examples in WoL, they were basically dead and irrelevant towards the end.
All the Protoss builds you listed can still be played against 3 rax Medivacs, and at any rate Protoss has other agressive possibilities if Terran goes some Mines. Whether the Terran builds I mentioned were often played or not is irrelevant: they existed, so their mere threat acted as an "anti-greed function" to keep Protoss builds in check. Not anymore.
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A terran won convincingly against the player hyped (wrongly, but ymmv) to have best PvT in the world? Quick, damage control, let's all snaprush to this thread, we can't let facts hurt the truth!
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On July 25 2013 21:27 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 21:19 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 21:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 25 2013 20:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 20:42 MTAC wrote:Nice. After 20-ish whiny pages of local terran experts declaring terran all-ins vs protoss dead and buried, Bomber starts with proxy reaper and is promptly ahead. When medivacs are out, terran can harass. Before MSC is out, terran can h8arass. Between that, terran is stucked on his base. It's the only thing the "local terran experts" says. It's also the thing terran KR progamer are saying, Major too. Just watch the games and see Protoss getting MAXIMUM one sentry before 10. It's tweaking the tech timings. And that has never been different. Terran has always started to move out when medivacs came out in TvP and not before, unless it was some form of cheesy play. Up to that point, Terran was always stuck on his base due to stalkers kiting marines endlessly. So the thing that has changed is basically BOs. Protoss now get faster tech out. Does this lead to Protoss being to strong later on? From watching highlevel TvPs currently, certainly not. The buffs to Terran bio/biomech in HotS TvP prove to be enough to keep them even with the faster Protoss techplay in HotS. Wrong: 3 rax add-ons (Marines/Marauders stim timing), 4-5 rax (Marines), (threats of) Tank pushes and Banshees transitions existed in WoL after 1 rax FE or CC first. They're now all dead to one button. And Protoss could do 4gates and 6gates and 3nexus into 8gate in WoL and we don't see those builds anymore either due to HotS changes. --> and those things were as popular as your examples in WoL, they were basically dead and irrelevant towards the end. All the Protoss builds you listed can still be played against 3 rax Medivacs, and at any rate Protoss has other agressive possibilities if Terran goes some Mines. Whether the Terran builds I mentioned were often played or not is irrelevant: they existed, so their mere threat acted as an "anti-greed function" to keep Protoss builds in check. Not anymore.
yes, thats what I meant with "only BO changed". the builds that are actually being played differ because of the MsC. but the results are still balanced
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On July 25 2013 20:55 TheDwf wrote:
I think this should be renamed the designated "Terran just won a game, call the police" thread.
You mean 20 pages ago when every Terran came on here telling us about how PvT would become extremely P favored in the near future?
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On July 25 2013 22:33 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:55 TheDwf wrote:
I think this should be renamed the designated "Terran just won a game, call the police" thread. You mean 20 pages ago when every Terran came on here telling us about how PvT would become extremely P favored in the near future?
I just checked back 20 pages. Still jus a bunch of p and z whine lol.
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On July 25 2013 22:39 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 22:33 Wingblade wrote:On July 25 2013 20:55 TheDwf wrote:
I think this should be renamed the designated "Terran just won a game, call the police" thread. You mean 20 pages ago when every Terran came on here telling us about how PvT would become extremely P favored in the near future? I just checked back 20 pages. Still jus a bunch of p and z whine lol.
then you cannot count or read. There is not a single Protoss complain on page 577 if you take it that literally.
If you don't take it literally, you'd understand that Wingblade is talking about what has been discussed before this thread exploded with Innovation vs Soulkey/Maru vs Symbol discussion about bio/mine being overpowered and Zergs being stupid to go muta/ling/bling.
Edit: though I found this quote which could be Terran whine (user has SCV as race symbol):
I find it incredibly frustrating to play vs toss players because i know they are practically licking the keyboard and still winning.
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I practically stopped posting 10 pages ago, but here is what I observe.
Some people only complain 'terran op', others also complain, but they also explain what is the problem, describing situations and bringing examples from various games, sometimes they also provide albeit 'unrealistic' solutions. And there are others, who no matter what, no matter when, under any circumstances will deny that there is any imbalance in the game. They don't provide any particular explanation, they'll just go "Player A better than player B, thats why he won. Stop QQ." or sometimes they'll tell that player B should've stopped building something but don't provide any alternatives.
my message to them:
Firstly, this thread is dedicated for balance discussion. When this thread didn't exist TL mods used to ban/warn people for qqing in threads, therefore, I guess some of you preserved it as a rule, something like 'balance-whining is taboo'. Which is not. Its perfectly fine as long as you don't spam LR and other threads. If you don't wanna see balance whine just don't open this thread.
Secondly, if you believe the game is perfectly balanced, you can check patch history, back then many of likes of you were pretty sure the game is balanced whereas it was proven it wasn't.
Thirdly, to whom who are sure that the game itself will sort it out, I think its big mistake. Remember how blizzard left brood/infestor to sort itself out? SC2 almost died that time (it was for a good 6-8 months I think).
At last, be friendly and try your best to explain if you don't agree, we are all sc2 brothers afterall.
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On July 25 2013 21:11 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 21:01 HerrHorst wrote:On July 25 2013 20:57 LSN wrote:
Instead of watching exciting games we see terran easy mode easy win mechanics in 50% of games where terran is involved. The next dude who wants to troll in this thread? It's getting old. Well why don't you just watch it yourself? Its not about terran winning, its about HOW terran wins games and how easy it is to take the instant win, not just an advantage. Why are none of you terran guys seeing this? And the fourth base didnt make any difference there, I have seen this vs 3 base protoss alot of times too. And the fourth base was up already quite some time and already paid off for half of its cost so you say 400 minerals (=4 more zealots) would have made any difference? Defenitely not. Just watch game 3, protoss has to all-in because there is no way back into the game vs a terran that has the advantage. Another imbalanced terran easy win mechanic. Get the advantage fend off the all-in and win or just kill and win. Seems like the only thing that helps is all-in play vs terran and therefore all-ins vs terran are so common these days. It all makes sense finally, doesn't it?
Why dont you just stop whining about "Terran EZ-mode" and that claim that Terran players are just bad or dont do anything fancy (I already explained to you that they CANT do anything else because of the game design) and instead complain about the game design TO BLIZZARD. They are the ones who are responsible for the current situation and not the players.
Since you arent complaining about "imbalance" but rather about "how race X plays" that is the right way to do it and I wish you all the best.
Blizzard just balances the game around their "action & harrassment" style until the matchups have roughly 50% win rate and they dont care one bit about how the games are played ... as long as it involves lots of units dying and lots of harrassment and it doesnt involve mech.
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All the "booohoo Protoss are a million times smarter than Terrans" or "Terrans are only playing ez-mode" posts over the last few pages of this thread have been extremely annoying and they should stop. They are possibly / probably breaking numbers 2-4 of the TL.net ten commandments ... (not my place to actually say so).
Lets please get back to balance discussion instead of this whine about race X, Y and Z. That is just circular sandbox argumentation of a few eight-year-olds ... "you started ... no you ... no you ... mommy!!"
If you think race X has an advantage try to find the cause for that advantage and maybe even the reason for its existence due to gameplay necessities ... and then think about the other races and look if they DONT have an advantage themselves. After you have found those advantages you could start comparing them against each other and try to reason if these things are balanced or if they make the game totally bad and one-dimensional. Argumentation and logic and common sense should be applied ...
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After playing a bit more Z, I really like where the races stand. I think it's neat that T has all these massively powerful options and unit compositions that Z would kill for, but Z's macro mechanics mean Z can incur losses and still come out ahead.
My biggest complaint is that it's incredibly hard to deal with Widow mines as Z - especially if there's a bio army trying to kite units over the mines. It feels like Protoss is just 'supposed' to use stalkers and observers to kill mines, and Terran can use scans + any unit with range>5, but Zerg is very confusing. We're supposed to suicide units onto them until the entire field is on cooldown, then bring in an overseer and kill it with whatever before the cooldown is up? Or we're supposed to peek with an overseer then snipe with a big flock of mutas? Everything carries a huge risk and certain losses.
It takes a large amount of micro to fight a mine, and still the mine is very likely to be cost effective. It just seems like the combination is a bit too beneficial.
Also I still hate the fact that 'denying detection' is a mechanic that just doesn't exist vT. I think matches could be a lot more interesting if scan didn't exist and T had a cheaper mobile way of detecting units.
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@Fdsdfg Have you ever played Terran vs Zerg against Banelings ahahhaha talk about micro intensive.... Its only fair to have micro intensive vses micro intensive LOL Do you want an adv there?
I feel that Widow mines Can backstab an entire Terran army if you get a good surround and ofcourse that is map specific and depends on how much map control you are ascerting....
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As a side note, it's amusing that three regulars of this thread: per se, LSN and Emzeeshady were just temp banned for balance whining. That's an interesting lesson, you can speak imba in here, but some of those views are just not acceptable on the rest of TL.
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On July 26 2013 00:43 Ghanburighan wrote:
As a side note, it's amusing that three regulars of this thread: per se, LSN and Emzeeshady were just temp banned for balance whining. That's an interesting lesson, you can speak imba in here, but some of those views are just not acceptable on the rest of TL.
Emzeeshady isn't balance whining that much, he's just a troll overall, baiting like a boss, mostly against protoss and against specific players who have good fanbases so that he can be fed in return.
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I would say that the game is fairly balanced, but Terran bio is too strong in that it makes mech less favored. Also, Zerg's Swarm host/Viper and Protoss's Immortal basically shuts mech down all too well.
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On July 26 2013 00:24 fdsdfg wrote:
After playing a bit more Z, I really like where the races stand. I think it's neat that T has all these massively powerful options and unit compositions that Z would kill for, but Z's macro mechanics mean Z can incur losses and still come out ahead.
My biggest complaint is that it's incredibly hard to deal with Widow mines as Z - especially if there's a bio army trying to kite units over the mines. It feels like Protoss is just 'supposed' to use stalkers and observers to kill mines, and Terran can use scans + any unit with range>5, but Zerg is very confusing. We're supposed to suicide units onto them until the entire field is on cooldown, then bring in an overseer and kill it with whatever before the cooldown is up? Or we're supposed to peek with an overseer then snipe with a big flock of mutas? Everything carries a huge risk and certain losses.
It takes a large amount of micro to fight a mine, and still the mine is very likely to be cost effective. It just seems like the combination is a bit too beneficial.
Also I still hate the fact that 'denying detection' is a mechanic that just doesn't exist vT. I think matches could be a lot more interesting if scan didn't exist and T had a cheaper mobile way of detecting units.
There are many options, a few mid-late game more options you may want to consider.
Fungals can decloak a mine field quite well, bonus points if you trap any bio and send a few suicide lings/roaches/etc into their friendly fire graves.
Ultra+queen transfuse work well as ultra's splash attack will hit cloaked mines as well (same as nearby DT and cloaked ghosts)
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On July 26 2013 00:50 jkim91 wrote:
I would say that the game is fairly balanced, but Terran bio is too strong in that it makes mech less favored. Also, Zerg's Swarm host/Viper and Protoss's Immortal basically shuts mech down all too well.
I agree that because of SH/Viper and tempests, that buffing the sieged tank damage should be reinstated.
After all, the hellbat nerf was a serious nerf hardly compensated by the cheaper cloak.
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EPT
