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On July 25 2013 21:36 Nebuchad wrote:
A terran won convincingly against the player hyped (wrongly, but ymmv) to have best PvT in the world? Quick, damage control, let's all snaprush to this thread, we can't let facts hurt the truth!
Rain has been said to have the world's best PvT for months. Surely, no one said about First, I hope.
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On July 26 2013 01:32 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 21:36 Nebuchad wrote:
A terran won convincingly against the player hyped (wrongly, but ymmv) to have best PvT in the world? Quick, damage control, let's all snaprush to this thread, we can't let facts hurt the truth! Rain has been said to have the world's best PvT for months. Surely, no one said about First, I hope.
I think Artosis said he was really, really good. I will need to travel back in time to listen to last weeks episode of Meta.
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On July 25 2013 23:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 21:11 LSN wrote:On July 25 2013 21:01 HerrHorst wrote:On July 25 2013 20:57 LSN wrote:
Instead of watching exciting games we see terran easy mode easy win mechanics in 50% of games where terran is involved. The next dude who wants to troll in this thread? It's getting old. Well why don't you just watch it yourself? Its not about terran winning, its about HOW terran wins games and how easy it is to take the instant win, not just an advantage. Why are none of you terran guys seeing this? And the fourth base didnt make any difference there, I have seen this vs 3 base protoss alot of times too. And the fourth base was up already quite some time and already paid off for half of its cost so you say 400 minerals (=4 more zealots) would have made any difference? Defenitely not. Just watch game 3, protoss has to all-in because there is no way back into the game vs a terran that has the advantage. Another imbalanced terran easy win mechanic. Get the advantage fend off the all-in and win or just kill and win. Seems like the only thing that helps is all-in play vs terran and therefore all-ins vs terran are so common these days. It all makes sense finally, doesn't it? Why dont you just stop whining about "Terran EZ-mode" and that claim that Terran players are just bad or dont do anything fancy (I already explained to you that they CANT do anything else because of the game design) and instead complain about the game design TO BLIZZARD. They are the ones who are responsible for the current situation and not the players. Since you arent complaining about "imbalance" but rather about "how race X plays" that is the right way to do it and I wish you all the best. Blizzard just balances the game around their "action & harrassment" style until the matchups have roughly 50% win rate and they dont care one bit about how the games are played ... as long as it involves lots of units dying and lots of harrassment and it doesnt involve mech. ---- All the "booohoo Protoss are a million times smarter than Terrans" or "Terrans are only playing ez-mode" posts over the last few pages of this thread have been extremely annoying and they should stop. They are possibly / probably breaking numbers 2-4 of the TL.net ten commandments ... (not my place to actually say so). Lets please get back to balance discussion instead of this whine about race X, Y and Z. That is just circular sandbox argumentation of a few eight-year-olds ... "you started ... no you ... no you ... mommy!!" If you think race X has an advantage try to find the cause for that advantage and maybe even the reason for its existence due to gameplay necessities ... and then think about the other races and look if they DONT have an advantage themselves. After you have found those advantages you could start comparing them against each other and try to reason if these things are balanced or if they make the game totally bad and one-dimensional. Argumentation and logic and common sense should be applied ...
finally a post that didn't make my mind explode of the sheer stupidity i come across on this thread. so let me as well just try to fit in with the few people that haven't lost their mind yet to the endless spree of 8 year olds stating that the race they hate is OP.
as a protoss player i have found the nexus cannon to be strong in early game pvt. easily capable of clearing out any kind of early allin/harass while the P player can play greedy. so here are my suggestions for it.
possibility 1. nerfing the range. if the range is nerfed just under the range of a siege tank (forgot what range both have) then the 1-1-1 might be a bit more valid because the siege tank can just shoot shit without being attacked by the nexus cannon.
possibility 2. nerfing the duration but letting the nexus cannon's damage increase with ground weapons upgrades. i have found the nexus cannon to be effective early game but lose its effectiveness as the game goes on. a duration nerf would make it less effective in the early game but with the additional damage it would be better late game. as attacks late game last only about 10 seconds.
these are just some of my suggestions. let me know what you think instead of whining about P being OP.
have a nice evening
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On July 26 2013 01:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 01:32 Rhaegal wrote:On July 25 2013 21:36 Nebuchad wrote:
A terran won convincingly against the player hyped (wrongly, but ymmv) to have best PvT in the world? Quick, damage control, let's all snaprush to this thread, we can't let facts hurt the truth! Rain has been said to have the world's best PvT for months. Surely, no one said about First, I hope. I think Artosis said he was really, really good. I will need to travel back in time to listen to last weeks episode of Meta.
First had a really strong PvT in some of the games I watched, but today it seems he was off.
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On July 26 2013 01:43 SCguineapig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 23:11 Rabiator wrote:On July 25 2013 21:11 LSN wrote:On July 25 2013 21:01 HerrHorst wrote:On July 25 2013 20:57 LSN wrote:
Instead of watching exciting games we see terran easy mode easy win mechanics in 50% of games where terran is involved. The next dude who wants to troll in this thread? It's getting old. Well why don't you just watch it yourself? Its not about terran winning, its about HOW terran wins games and how easy it is to take the instant win, not just an advantage. Why are none of you terran guys seeing this? And the fourth base didnt make any difference there, I have seen this vs 3 base protoss alot of times too. And the fourth base was up already quite some time and already paid off for half of its cost so you say 400 minerals (=4 more zealots) would have made any difference? Defenitely not. Just watch game 3, protoss has to all-in because there is no way back into the game vs a terran that has the advantage. Another imbalanced terran easy win mechanic. Get the advantage fend off the all-in and win or just kill and win. Seems like the only thing that helps is all-in play vs terran and therefore all-ins vs terran are so common these days. It all makes sense finally, doesn't it? Why dont you just stop whining about "Terran EZ-mode" and that claim that Terran players are just bad or dont do anything fancy (I already explained to you that they CANT do anything else because of the game design) and instead complain about the game design TO BLIZZARD. They are the ones who are responsible for the current situation and not the players. Since you arent complaining about "imbalance" but rather about "how race X plays" that is the right way to do it and I wish you all the best. Blizzard just balances the game around their "action & harrassment" style until the matchups have roughly 50% win rate and they dont care one bit about how the games are played ... as long as it involves lots of units dying and lots of harrassment and it doesnt involve mech. ---- All the "booohoo Protoss are a million times smarter than Terrans" or "Terrans are only playing ez-mode" posts over the last few pages of this thread have been extremely annoying and they should stop. They are possibly / probably breaking numbers 2-4 of the TL.net ten commandments ... (not my place to actually say so). Lets please get back to balance discussion instead of this whine about race X, Y and Z. That is just circular sandbox argumentation of a few eight-year-olds ... "you started ... no you ... no you ... mommy!!" If you think race X has an advantage try to find the cause for that advantage and maybe even the reason for its existence due to gameplay necessities ... and then think about the other races and look if they DONT have an advantage themselves. After you have found those advantages you could start comparing them against each other and try to reason if these things are balanced or if they make the game totally bad and one-dimensional. Argumentation and logic and common sense should be applied ... finally a post that didn't make my mind explode of the sheer stupidity i come across on this thread. so let me as well just try to fit in with the few people that haven't lost their mind yet to the endless spree of 8 year olds stating that the race they hate is OP. as a protoss player i have found the nexus cannon to be strong in early game pvt. easily capable of clearing out any kind of early allin/harass while the P player can play greedy. so here are my suggestions for it. possibility 1. nerfing the range. if the range is nerfed just under the range of a siege tank (forgot what range both have) then the 1-1-1 might be a bit more valid because the siege tank can just shoot shit without being attacked by the nexus cannon. possibility 2. nerfing the duration but letting the nexus cannon's damage increase with ground weapons upgrades. i have found the nexus cannon to be effective early game but lose its effectiveness as the game goes on. a duration nerf would make it less effective in the early game but with the additional damage it would be better late game. as attacks late game last only about 10 seconds. these are just some of my suggestions. let me know what you think instead of whining about P being OP. have a nice evening
*** CLAP CLAP CLAP ***
I've been saying this for awhile now. Blizzard wanted a Dynamic game but they kinda had a little oversight with this. I 100% agree protoss needed the MSC and that they Needed a spell such as this to even everything out.... How many times have protoss been caught and completely ending the game right there. So its good and it does add balance but i feel it makes them "To Safe" like you are saying just the Range would be enough right now its 13 range which is exactly the same as tanks......
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nerfing the duration but letting the nexus cannon's damage increase with ground weapons upgrades. i have found the nexus cannon to be effective early game but lose its effectiveness as the game goes on
That is some cool idea. That kind of tweak could solve the problems in PvT (and no more 10 minutes boring play), but could help toss far longer in the game. Btw, I hugely prefered the first incarnation of MsC, tied to nexuses and being able to teleport from one to another but, i think that's dead. The range idea, i dislike it far more, coz in it's current state, Tanks would be there only for all-ins TvP, and holding all-ins TvZ, and it would allow only tank-based play.
For the other units I'd like to see some changes, and with changes that blizzard could agree to do:
I don't really know for toss, maybe increasing shield regeneration, that could lead to more use of harrassement, and therefore being slightly better dealing with bio-only play (bring back reavers T.T). Maybe carrier and tempests could do with some tweaks, tempests are boring, and carriers are sh**.
For terran, i'd love Mines/Ghosts cheaper in minerals and far heavier on gas costs (x2/x3) Tanks buffs overall, or in damage, or in supply and cost. Alongside i'd like buffs to other races against pure bioplay, so biomech or mech could be used more often, and pure bio less efective, and needing transitions/support the later the game goes on.
Drastically change the hellbats. It is less powerfull than before, but still... just... weird. Hellions and transformation should have some use too, and thor sucks in AA, but with 2 supply tanks, Tank/Mine/HB as a core of mech could work.
For Zerg. Dear, CHANGE SH !!! What i'd REALLY love: A moving scourge nest. with Few hps but powerfull, and why not with a splash that could hit ground too (but a litlle one then). Removing range up for hydras (natural), Corruptor eh... Making corruption a small splash spell maybe? And a close combat anti-air unit, but with a lot more power. Nyduses buffs overall, and maybe drops.
Diversity in a game is brought when you don't know what unit/comp you want, because all are good. And for that, we need imba stuff. Imba stuff that could be dealt with another imba stuff, and most of all skill.
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On July 25 2013 21:36 Nebuchad wrote:
A terran won convincingly against the player hyped (wrongly, but ymmv) to have best PvT in the world? Quick, damage control, let's all snaprush to this thread, we can't let facts hurt the truth!
Nearly all terran semis again?
:D
On July 25 2013 22:33 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:55 TheDwf wrote:
I think this should be renamed the designated "Terran just won a game, call the police" thread. You mean 20 pages ago when every Terran came on here telling us about how PvT would become extremely P favored in the near future?
Every thread. Judging by the reddit downvotes and the posting in this thread, I think the majority of active toss players posting on forums lost hope a long time ago in WoL with the shit design.
Can't we go back to how zergs need to use corrupters because they have no apm?
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If a slight nerf is really needed, nexus cannon's fire rate could be affected by chronoboost. That would make photon overcharge more taxing in the early game, while giving more depth to the CB mechanics.
Apart from that, I would really like to see Revelation and Envision merged (like, cloaked units are revealed by Revelation for a short period of time) to make the Oracle more interesting in mid/late game. That would help against swarm host, cloaked ghost, etc. At that point I wouldn't mind a nerf to the Oracle dps along with the proposed speed buff, since right now it is a binary unit (either it does a lot of damage or it gets shut down easily).
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On July 26 2013 03:12 Sabu113 wrote:
Can't we go back to how zergs need to use corrupters because they have no apm?
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players.
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i can't believe that bomber game was whined about, bomber is in incredible form lately
10-14 hours a day for the last year, while top Z and P dont practice nearly that much. Bomber's earned all the success he has an people attributing it to his race are forgetting his ridiculous consistency, especially considering the vast majority of top Terran legends are gone due to injury etc
On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 03:12 Sabu113 wrote:
Can't we go back to how zergs need to use corrupters because they have no apm? i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players.
id say a lot of this especially at the pro level comes from mass unit production and creep spread
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On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players.
Yes, more units to produce + repetitive actions such as creep/Overlord spread.
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On July 26 2013 03:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players. Yes, more units to produce + repetitive actions such as creep/Overlord spread.
Holding down Z to make 40 zerglings has got to pump that AMP up a bit, with creep, and other stuff. But mostly holding down ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
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On July 26 2013 04:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 03:56 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players. Yes, more units to produce + repetitive actions such as creep/Overlord spread. Holding down Z to make 40 zerglings has got to pump that AMP up a bit, with creep, and other stuff. But mostly holding down ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
Whats the key for marine?
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On July 26 2013 04:07 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 04:04 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 03:56 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players. Yes, more units to produce + repetitive actions such as creep/Overlord spread. Holding down Z to make 40 zerglings has got to pump that AMP up a bit, with creep, and other stuff. But mostly holding down ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Whats the key for marine?
a to make em
a to move em
http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif
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On July 26 2013 04:07 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 04:07 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 04:04 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 03:56 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players. Yes, more units to produce + repetitive actions such as creep/Overlord spread. Holding down Z to make 40 zerglings has got to pump that AMP up a bit, with creep, and other stuff. But mostly holding down ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Whats the key for marine? a to make em a to move em
And you don't hold it down because bad stuff happens like you get 7 being built in 2 raxes.
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On July 26 2013 04:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 04:07 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 26 2013 04:07 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 04:04 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 03:56 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players. Yes, more units to produce + repetitive actions such as creep/Overlord spread. Holding down Z to make 40 zerglings has got to pump that AMP up a bit, with creep, and other stuff. But mostly holding down ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Whats the key for marine? a to make em a to move em And you don't hold it down because bad stuff happens like you get 7 being built in 2 raxes.
yeah queue cancels probably up my apm so much, lols
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On July 26 2013 04:14 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 04:09 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 04:07 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 26 2013 04:07 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 04:04 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 03:56 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 03:20 SCguineapig wrote:
i have seen alot of zerg players have higher APM then terran and toss players. Yes, more units to produce + repetitive actions such as creep/Overlord spread. Holding down Z to make 40 zerglings has got to pump that AMP up a bit, with creep, and other stuff. But mostly holding down ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Whats the key for marine? a to make em a to move em And you don't hold it down because bad stuff happens like you get 7 being built in 2 raxes. yeah queue cancels probably up my apm so much, lols
Yeah, I just make my stalker dance around while I wait for the reaper to come and scout, get distracted by workers and then die because he is still a reaper.
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On July 25 2013 17:04 Terrasmith wrote:
Mines and medivacs aren't tier 1 units. So you have two armies on tier 1/tier 2 and neither break each other. No surprise.
And I watched that game. Reality wasn't "still in it," it was more of a long slow death animation.
I'd be very careful about nerfing stim, because it could easily make "terran slightly OP" into "terran loses 80% of games." It's a massively important mechanic for bio to be viable (and we already know that mech isn't viable).
True, mines and medivacs aren't tier 1. But you don't really need that many of them. And they can be slowly produced throughout the game, unlike other races like infestors who need to be pumped out to stop certain timing pushes and need to have high energy to be useful.
Nerfing stim would be a good idea, but yes we don't want to over-nerf it. Maybe reduce the DPS a little, and make it cost a bit more health.
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On July 26 2013 00:43 Ghanburighan wrote:
As a side note, it's amusing that three regulars of this thread: per se, LSN and Emzeeshady were just temp banned for balance whining. That's an interesting lesson, you can speak imba in here, but some of those views are just not acceptable on the rest of TL.
It's one thing to disagree with a view. It's totally another when you try to involve mods / thread closed just because you dont want to hear the "Terran is overpowered currently" discussions rampant in a BALANCE DISCUSSION thread. That's just messed up.
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules.
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On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 00:43 Ghanburighan wrote:
As a side note, it's amusing that three regulars of this thread: per se, LSN and Emzeeshady were just temp banned for balance whining. That's an interesting lesson, you can speak imba in here, but some of those views are just not acceptable on the rest of TL. It's one thing to disagree with a view. It's totally another when you try to involve mods / thread closed just because you dont want to hear the "Terran is overpowered currently" discussions rampant in a BALANCE DISCUSSION thread. That's just messed up. Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules.
discussing balance and boldly stating that terran is OP are 2 different things.
nexus cannon as well as marine mine medivac and SH viper are to strong. so they all 3 need slight nerfs. the problem is though if you nerf it for 1 matchup it might get worse in the other. for instance if you nerf stim vs zerg then tvp could become dominated by P players. if you nerf mines they might become the shittiest unit in the game. it's the reason why blizzard isn't taking to much action right now. they have to think carefully of what they do. and i rather have a little bit off win percentage for one side then have a patch in 1 week which causes the nerfed race to lose 80% of its games.
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EPT
