On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because: 1) Roaches are supply heavy 2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement 3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio 4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans 5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down 6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them. 7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
Zergs go for addons when possible, addons are usually more guarded and in the middle of the base which means mutas cant get away easily. It is a much bigger risk to go for a tech lab in the middle of the base than to go around the edges and do what damage you can to economy (especially if there is dead space behind the mineral lines). Even though you have mules, losing SCV's is still lower economy than otherwise.
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because: 1) Roaches are supply heavy 2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement 3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio 4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans 5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down 6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them. 7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
Zergs go for addons when possible, addons are usually more guarded and in the middle of the base which means mutas cant get away easily. It is a much bigger risk to go for a tech lab in the middle of the base than to go around the edges and do what damage you can to economy (especially if there is dead space behind the mineral lines). Even though you have mules, losing SCV's is still lower economy than otherwise.
Hitting the economy doesnt really hurt the Terran as much as it hurts other races due to the MULE, thus it might be worthwile to focus MUCH more on the production. I was trying to point this out to some people who have whined about the oh so tough Planetary Fortress at the 4th.
On the topic of Mutalisks you are obviously right, but I think they might be far too expensive to really use for such "deep inbase harrass" and a suggestion I would have is to use Baneling carpet bombing instead. Sure enough the Banelings arent that cheap either, BUT their attack is AoE and you hit any units that are produced at the time while hitting several buildings AND the Terrans usually build their barracks in neat rows which make it easy to line up such a bombing run. You just need five Banelings to kill an addon (with a little bit of burning) and you might even kill two addons with one set of those, so in the end it doesnt really seem that expensive if you only want to go for those addons.
Does Contaminate prevent a Barracks / Factory / Starport from starting an addon? That might be a really annoying addition to killing the addons and since there are usually quite a few Overseers around because of the Widow Mines it shouldnt be a problem of spending extra resources.
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because: 1) Roaches are supply heavy 2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement 3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio 4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans 5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down 6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them. 7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
Zergs go for addons when possible, addons are usually more guarded and in the middle of the base which means mutas cant get away easily. It is a much bigger risk to go for a tech lab in the middle of the base than to go around the edges and do what damage you can to economy (especially if there is dead space behind the mineral lines). Even though you have mules, losing SCV's is still lower economy than otherwise.
Hitting the economy doesnt really hurt the Terran as much as it hurts other races due to the MULE, thus it might be worthwile to focus MUCH more on the production. I was trying to point this out to some people who have whined about the oh so tough Planetary Fortress at the 4th.
On the topic of Mutalisks you are obviously right, but I think they might be far too expensive to really use for such "deep inbase harrass" and a suggestion I would have is to use Baneling carpet bombing instead. Sure enough the Banelings arent that cheap either, BUT their attack is AoE and you hit any units that are produced at the time while hitting several buildings AND the Terrans usually build their barracks in neat rows which make it easy to line up such a bombing run. You just need five Banelings to kill an addon (with a little bit of burning) and you might even kill two addons with one set of those, so in the end it doesnt really seem that expensive if you only want to go for those addons.
Does Contaminate prevent a Barracks / Factory / Starport from starting an addon? That might be a really annoying addition to killing the addons and since there are usually quite a few Overseers around because of the Widow Mines it shouldnt be a problem of spending extra resources.
So you want to spend 450 minerals/125 gas to kill 1 addon and MAYBE 2 marines that just happened to pop out when you drop?
Or to kill 4 addons you spend 1500 minerals/500 gas (absolute best case scenario being 8 addons, if he uses a specific build formation and lets all 20 banes go off at the right spot)? And this accomplishes what... maybe entices the terran to go into a base trade? Maybe makes the T fall back while rebuilding his addons as he adds another CC or something else to compensate? I mean, you lose army AND resources, he loses none of his army so he can make a number of choices. Killing production is nice, but you have to keep ahead on army too.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units nor higher tech units. Versatility revolves around the addons.
Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production. Healing our buildings takes away and costs resources, queens spend mp and Protoss regenerate shields at absurd rates.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
*looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
We're told that the weak spot isn't Terran's economy: it's their production. "If you want to beat Terran, don't try killing their army or harassing their economy, but take out their production buildings!"
I wonder if it's occurred to the geniuses pushing this idea that other races get their production significantly delayed just by taking out a SINGLE tech building. Not eight tech buildings, but a SINGLE building. And Terran have the best tools for taking out buildings. How in the name of God's green Earth is Terran's production facilities the weak spot of that race?
It's as if you're faced with a creature that doesn't have internal organs, but is just a homogenous block of cells. And then some scientist comes along with a theory that its weak spot is killing every one of the cells.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
On July 26 2013 17:02 GreenGringo wrote: We're told that the weak spot isn't Terran's economy: it's their production. "If you want to beat Terran, don't try killing their army or harassing their economy, but take out their production buildings!"
I wonder if it's occurred to the geniuses pushing this idea that other races get their production significantly delayed just by taking out a SINGLE tech building. Not eight tech buildings, but a SINGLE building. And Terran have the best tools for taking out buildings. How in the name of God's green Earth is Terran's production facilities the weak spot of that race?
It's as if you're faced with a creature that doesn't have internal organs, but is just a homogenous block of cells. And then some scientist comes along with a theory that its weak spot is killing every one of the cells.
Because there's no correlation to production facility rate of production with a unit's dps? I thought this game is dead to you. Why are you back?
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because: 1) Roaches are supply heavy 2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement 3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio 4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans 5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down 6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them. 7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
Zergs go for addons when possible, addons are usually more guarded and in the middle of the base which means mutas cant get away easily. It is a much bigger risk to go for a tech lab in the middle of the base than to go around the edges and do what damage you can to economy (especially if there is dead space behind the mineral lines). Even though you have mules, losing SCV's is still lower economy than otherwise.
Hitting the economy doesnt really hurt the Terran as much as it hurts other races due to the MULE, thus it might be worthwile to focus MUCH more on the production. I was trying to point this out to some people who have whined about the oh so tough Planetary Fortress at the 4th.
On the topic of Mutalisks you are obviously right, but I think they might be far too expensive to really use for such "deep inbase harrass" and a suggestion I would have is to use Baneling carpet bombing instead. Sure enough the Banelings arent that cheap either, BUT their attack is AoE and you hit any units that are produced at the time while hitting several buildings AND the Terrans usually build their barracks in neat rows which make it easy to line up such a bombing run. You just need five Banelings to kill an addon (with a little bit of burning) and you might even kill two addons with one set of those, so in the end it doesnt really seem that expensive if you only want to go for those addons.
Does Contaminate prevent a Barracks / Factory / Starport from starting an addon? That might be a really annoying addition to killing the addons and since there are usually quite a few Overseers around because of the Widow Mines it shouldnt be a problem of spending extra resources.
So you want to spend 450 minerals/125 gas to kill 1 addon and MAYBE 2 marines that just happened to pop out when you drop?
Or to kill 4 addons you spend 1500 minerals/500 gas (absolute best case scenario being 8 addons, if he uses a specific build formation and lets all 20 banes go off at the right spot)? And this accomplishes what... maybe entices the terran to go into a base trade? Maybe makes the T fall back while rebuilding his addons as he adds another CC or something else to compensate? I mean, you lose army AND resources, he loses none of his army so he can make a number of choices. Killing production is nice, but you have to keep ahead on army too.
There are basically three ways to win in SC2:
1. Harrass the enemy economy so he cant (re)produce an army and you win. 2. Harrass the enemy production capability to stifle the (re)production capabilities for the army. 3. Straight up overpower the enemy army and then kill his base.
All you need to do is CHOOSE ONE... It should be pretty clear that throwing an army endlessly against a Terran bio army (option #3) is not going to work forever because he can mass-produce Marines and Widow Mines and Hellbats pretty easily and cheaply. Neither is trying to kill the economy / SCVs (Option #1) really hindering him much due to the MULE and the ability to float OCs to safety or reposition them to new bases without extra costs. So the only available option IN THE MID-TO-LATE GAME is to strike at his production. How you do it is your job ... choose whichever way strikes your fancy, but dont complain when the "head through the wall" tactics dont work. The use of Banelings WAS JUST A SUGGESTION ...
---
Zerg Achilles heel are the Queens, the Hatcheries and the tech buildings and the Drones are only a good target if the number of available larvae is low, so you would have to choose between army and economy when spending those.
Protoss Achilles heel are the few key tech buildings like the Cybernetics Core, the Robotics Bay, Templar Archives, Dark Shrine and Fleet Beacon. Their "spread out" Pylons are another weakness, because they rarely build a "supply farm". There are many weak spots for Protoss, but not everyone applies. You need to find the right one and then hit it, because usually they only get one of each tech structure only ...
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because: 1) Roaches are supply heavy 2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement 3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio 4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans 5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down 6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them. 7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
Zergs go for addons when possible, addons are usually more guarded and in the middle of the base which means mutas cant get away easily. It is a much bigger risk to go for a tech lab in the middle of the base than to go around the edges and do what damage you can to economy (especially if there is dead space behind the mineral lines). Even though you have mules, losing SCV's is still lower economy than otherwise.
Hitting the economy doesnt really hurt the Terran as much as it hurts other races due to the MULE, thus it might be worthwile to focus MUCH more on the production. I was trying to point this out to some people who have whined about the oh so tough Planetary Fortress at the 4th.
On the topic of Mutalisks you are obviously right, but I think they might be far too expensive to really use for such "deep inbase harrass" and a suggestion I would have is to use Baneling carpet bombing instead. Sure enough the Banelings arent that cheap either, BUT their attack is AoE and you hit any units that are produced at the time while hitting several buildings AND the Terrans usually build their barracks in neat rows which make it easy to line up such a bombing run. You just need five Banelings to kill an addon (with a little bit of burning) and you might even kill two addons with one set of those, so in the end it doesnt really seem that expensive if you only want to go for those addons.
Does Contaminate prevent a Barracks / Factory / Starport from starting an addon? That might be a really annoying addition to killing the addons and since there are usually quite a few Overseers around because of the Widow Mines it shouldnt be a problem of spending extra resources.
So you want to spend 450 minerals/125 gas to kill 1 addon and MAYBE 2 marines that just happened to pop out when you drop?
Or to kill 4 addons you spend 1500 minerals/500 gas (absolute best case scenario being 8 addons, if he uses a specific build formation and lets all 20 banes go off at the right spot)? And this accomplishes what... maybe entices the terran to go into a base trade? Maybe makes the T fall back while rebuilding his addons as he adds another CC or something else to compensate? I mean, you lose army AND resources, he loses none of his army so he can make a number of choices. Killing production is nice, but you have to keep ahead on army too.
There are basically three ways to win in SC2:
1. Harrass the enemy economy so he cant (re)produce an army and you win. 2. Harrass the enemy production capability to stifle the (re)production capabilities for the army. 3. Straight up overpower the enemy army and then kill his base.
All you need to do is CHOOSE ONE... It should be pretty clear that throwing an army endlessly against a Terran bio army (option #3) is not going to work forever because he can mass-produce Marines and Widow Mines and Hellbats pretty easily and cheaply. Neither is trying to kill the economy / SCVs (Option #1) really hindering him much due to the MULE and the ability to float OCs to safety or reposition them to new bases without extra costs. So the only available option IN THE MID-TO-LATE GAME is to strike at his production. How you do it is your job ... choose whichever way strikes your fancy, but dont complain when the "head through the wall" tactics dont work. The use of Banelings WAS JUST A SUGGESTION ...
Which is ridiculous because tvz wins via all three.
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because: 1) Roaches are supply heavy 2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement 3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio 4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans 5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down 6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them. 7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
Zergs go for addons when possible, addons are usually more guarded and in the middle of the base which means mutas cant get away easily. It is a much bigger risk to go for a tech lab in the middle of the base than to go around the edges and do what damage you can to economy (especially if there is dead space behind the mineral lines). Even though you have mules, losing SCV's is still lower economy than otherwise.
Hitting the economy doesnt really hurt the Terran as much as it hurts other races due to the MULE, thus it might be worthwile to focus MUCH more on the production. I was trying to point this out to some people who have whined about the oh so tough Planetary Fortress at the 4th.
On the topic of Mutalisks you are obviously right, but I think they might be far too expensive to really use for such "deep inbase harrass" and a suggestion I would have is to use Baneling carpet bombing instead. Sure enough the Banelings arent that cheap either, BUT their attack is AoE and you hit any units that are produced at the time while hitting several buildings AND the Terrans usually build their barracks in neat rows which make it easy to line up such a bombing run. You just need five Banelings to kill an addon (with a little bit of burning) and you might even kill two addons with one set of those, so in the end it doesnt really seem that expensive if you only want to go for those addons.
Does Contaminate prevent a Barracks / Factory / Starport from starting an addon? That might be a really annoying addition to killing the addons and since there are usually quite a few Overseers around because of the Widow Mines it shouldnt be a problem of spending extra resources.
So you want to spend 450 minerals/125 gas to kill 1 addon and MAYBE 2 marines that just happened to pop out when you drop?
Or to kill 4 addons you spend 1500 minerals/500 gas (absolute best case scenario being 8 addons, if he uses a specific build formation and lets all 20 banes go off at the right spot)? And this accomplishes what... maybe entices the terran to go into a base trade? Maybe makes the T fall back while rebuilding his addons as he adds another CC or something else to compensate? I mean, you lose army AND resources, he loses none of his army so he can make a number of choices. Killing production is nice, but you have to keep ahead on army too.
There are basically three ways to win in SC2:
1. Harrass the enemy economy so he cant (re)produce an army and you win. 2. Harrass the enemy production capability to stifle the (re)production capabilities for the army. 3. Straight up overpower the enemy army and then kill his base.
All you need to do is CHOOSE ONE... It should be pretty clear that throwing an army endlessly against a Terran bio army (option #3) is not going to work forever because he can mass-produce Marines and Widow Mines and Hellbats pretty easily and cheaply. Neither is trying to kill the economy / SCVs (Option #1) really hindering him much due to the MULE and the ability to float OCs to safety or reposition them to new bases without extra costs. So the only available option IN THE MID-TO-LATE GAME is to strike at his production. How you do it is your job ... choose whichever way strikes your fancy, but dont complain when the "head through the wall" tactics dont work. The use of Banelings WAS JUST A SUGGESTION ...
The rock bottom of any strategy game player (chess / Go / Magic: The Gathering / etc) is when they have to ask their opponent how they got their ass handed to them and how to counter it. I had a Go friend that treat his opponent to 3 course dinner in order to reveal how he kept beating him!
But only in Starcraft community, not only is it offered freely it is mocked as well as rejected! Edit: For shame...
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
oh and yes zerg can produce lings fast...thats it. having to build lings and morph them into banes takes much longer than producing marines and about the time it takes to build WMs. innovation vs soulkey...innovation basically never drops under 200 supply since his production is so big. lategame T production (on rax, not factories or starports) can easily keep up with Z.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because: 1) Roaches are supply heavy 2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement 3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio 4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans 5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down 6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them. 7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
Zergs go for addons when possible, addons are usually more guarded and in the middle of the base which means mutas cant get away easily. It is a much bigger risk to go for a tech lab in the middle of the base than to go around the edges and do what damage you can to economy (especially if there is dead space behind the mineral lines). Even though you have mules, losing SCV's is still lower economy than otherwise.
Hitting the economy doesnt really hurt the Terran as much as it hurts other races due to the MULE, thus it might be worthwile to focus MUCH more on the production. I was trying to point this out to some people who have whined about the oh so tough Planetary Fortress at the 4th.
On the topic of Mutalisks you are obviously right, but I think they might be far too expensive to really use for such "deep inbase harrass" and a suggestion I would have is to use Baneling carpet bombing instead. Sure enough the Banelings arent that cheap either, BUT their attack is AoE and you hit any units that are produced at the time while hitting several buildings AND the Terrans usually build their barracks in neat rows which make it easy to line up such a bombing run. You just need five Banelings to kill an addon (with a little bit of burning) and you might even kill two addons with one set of those, so in the end it doesnt really seem that expensive if you only want to go for those addons.
Does Contaminate prevent a Barracks / Factory / Starport from starting an addon? That might be a really annoying addition to killing the addons and since there are usually quite a few Overseers around because of the Widow Mines it shouldnt be a problem of spending extra resources.
So you want to spend 450 minerals/125 gas to kill 1 addon and MAYBE 2 marines that just happened to pop out when you drop?
Or to kill 4 addons you spend 1500 minerals/500 gas (absolute best case scenario being 8 addons, if he uses a specific build formation and lets all 20 banes go off at the right spot)? And this accomplishes what... maybe entices the terran to go into a base trade? Maybe makes the T fall back while rebuilding his addons as he adds another CC or something else to compensate? I mean, you lose army AND resources, he loses none of his army so he can make a number of choices. Killing production is nice, but you have to keep ahead on army too.
There are basically three ways to win in SC2:
1. Harrass the enemy economy so he cant (re)produce an army and you win. 2. Harrass the enemy production capability to stifle the (re)production capabilities for the army. 3. Straight up overpower the enemy army and then kill his base.
All you need to do is CHOOSE ONE... It should be pretty clear that throwing an army endlessly against a Terran bio army (option #3) is not going to work forever because he can mass-produce Marines and Widow Mines and Hellbats pretty easily and cheaply. Neither is trying to kill the economy / SCVs (Option #1) really hindering him much due to the MULE and the ability to float OCs to safety or reposition them to new bases without extra costs. So the only available option IN THE MID-TO-LATE GAME is to strike at his production. How you do it is your job ... choose whichever way strikes your fancy, but dont complain when the "head through the wall" tactics dont work. The use of Banelings WAS JUST A SUGGESTION ...
The rock bottom of any strategy game player (chess / Go / Magic: The Gathering / etc) is when they have to ask their opponent how they got their ass handed to them and how to counter it.
But only in Starcraft community, not only is it offered freely it is mocked as well as rejected! Edit: For shame...
Nah ... I would say the problem is that too many people are stuck in their "beliefs" and thus incapable of looking at things objectively from new angles. They cant be creative, because "X" is labeled as BAD and they never bother to check if that is still true.
The usual example I bring here is the "Day[9] mantra" of "that is a Spine Crawler he didnt want to build" ... which was fine in BW, but due to the speed boost of Medivacs you kinda NEED TO get a larger number of Spore Crawlers to make drop harrassment inefficient for example. One Spore Crawler in the middle of the mineral line wont be able to attack the Medivac, but one at each end of the minerals (or two at "the obvious point of entry" for the Medivac) will be more effective for example.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVL0Dq8rziw Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
1 game of 1000? great. now i will find you 1 mech game every 100th game and 1 raven BC game every 1000th game which obv proves both are viable. (hint: they arent, so isnt nydus and ovidrop in macro games).
Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
EPT
