On July 26 2013 17:37 Rabiator wrote: Nah ... I would say the problem is that too many people are stuck in their "beliefs" and thus incapable of looking at things objectively from new angles. They cant be creative, because "X" is labeled as BAD and they never bother to check if that is still true.
Lol, this sentence from you. You are also just stuck on your belief on siege tanks are bad BW was better than SC2 ... thousand more things that you have labeled as absolutes.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
1 game of 1000? great. now i will find you 1 mech game every 100th game and 1 raven BC game every 1000th game which obv proves both are viable. (hint: they arent, so isnt nydus and ovidrop in macro games).
Why don't you just quit this playing this underpowered race then and be a caster or something.
Lowley had GOOD GAME SENSE to know that LiquidHero couldn't move back to protect his main in time due to his slow army of VRs, immortals, archons, sentry and zealot.
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
they are not useless. Against P they can be OK (not great, but viable under certain circumstances). Against Mech they are OK as well.
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
So make missile turrets attack ground units? Since now they are 100% useless against ground units contrary to photon cannons. Terran mid-game air to ground is also as useless as zerg drops (banshee).
Why don't you just quit this playing this underpowered race then and be a caster or something.
That's also something I notice in general. Every single game I ever played the most OP stuff attracted players like flies to a heap of shit. No matter if it was an MMO, RTS or FPS, always the same story.
Yet in SC2 all those zergs are so dedicated that their horribly underpowered race is still played more than the horribly overpowered terran race. (Outside bronze).
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
So make missile turrets attack ground units? Since now they are 100% useless against ground units contrary to photon cannons. Terran mid-game air to ground is also as useless as zerg drops (banshee).
turrets are very good at their job. ovidrop is very bad at its job. bad comparison...wow cant believe how biased some people are. like i am zerg and all for buffing tanks, snipe, carrier build time, oracle. but maybe i am too objective of a player by recognizing T and P got useless stuff that would make the game more fun if buffed. same goes for Z but all the biased players here only look at their own race and got no idea that the game would be so much more fun if all races got more viable options.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVL0Dq8rziw Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
This guy here...
1) ZvP is hugely different than ZvT 2) He dropped WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than 16 lings (~60 or so from what I counted... what horrible observing though holy crap) 3) He didnt defend at all as he was skytoss which lacks in gateways and speed (which is why ling runby's and lings in general are extremely strong, they abuse the immobility of the protoss... which is why drops are good against terrans that go mech) 4) He didnt recall to defend 5) HE STILL LOST DESPITE HAVING A BANK OF 5K AND CLEANING OUT THE MAIN
Honestly, you are the single most dishonest person in the history of ever to claim that he dropped with 16 lings and killed everything. Now lets see you do that vs a terran that rallies a wave of 15 marines, 2 medivacs, and 2 widow mines every 30 seconds.
EDIT: For those curious, drop happens 13:47 in. Observer doesnt catch even a glimpse at it until 14:28. You see the number of lings used at 13:00. There are a total of I think 10 zealots warped in when they finally see it. These are also 3-3 cracklings
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
So make missile turrets attack ground units? Since now they are 100% useless against ground units contrary to photon cannons. Terran mid-game air to ground is also as useless as zerg drops (banshee).
turrets are very good at their job. ovidrop is very bad at its job. bad comparison...wow cant believe how biased some people are. like i am zerg and all for buffing tanks, snipe, carrier build time, oracle. but maybe i am too objective of a player by recognizing T and P got useless stuff that would make the game more fun if buffed. same goes for Z but all the biased players here only look at their own race and got no idea that the game would be so much more fun if all races got more viable options.
I am not against viable options, but at the same time I want a balanced game. If you for example boost siege tanks it will have 0.0 effect on 4M compositions. But boosting drops is one of those things that always has an influence. It boosts for example also roach drops on mech openings. Aditionally it means you always will need to add extra static anti air, simply because of the chance he will come in with a (doom) drop. Even if drops aren't used it has an effect on the game.
That said I am not fundamentally against boosting zerg drops, I am against boosting drops because they would have to be as viable as terran/toss drops. I dont believe it is possible to do that while keeping a balanced game, unless you at the same time make terran/toss more equal to zerg.
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
So make missile turrets attack ground units? Since now they are 100% useless against ground units contrary to photon cannons. Terran mid-game air to ground is also as useless as zerg drops (banshee).
turrets are very good at their job. ovidrop is very bad at its job. bad comparison...wow cant believe how biased some people are. like i am zerg and all for buffing tanks, snipe, carrier build time, oracle. but maybe i am too objective of a player by recognizing T and P got useless stuff that would make the game more fun if buffed. same goes for Z but all the biased players here only look at their own race and got no idea that the game would be so much more fun if all races got more viable options.
I am not against viable options, but at the same time I want a balanced game. If you for example boost siege tanks it will have 0.0 effect on 4M compositions. But boosting drops is one of those things that always has an influence. It boosts for example also roach drops on mech openings. Aditionally it means you always will need to add extra static anti air, simply because of the chance he will come in with a (doom) drop. Even if drops aren't used it has an effect on the game.
That said I am not fundamentally against boosting zerg drops, I am against boosting drops because they would have to be as viable as terran/toss drops. I dont believe it is possible to do that while keeping a balanced game, unless you at the same time make terran/toss more equal to zerg.
Zerg drops have their place, it just isnt against bio. Drop play for EVERY race is used to abuse immobility.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVL0Dq8rziw Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
This guy here...
1) ZvP is hugely different than ZvT 2) He dropped WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than 16 lings (~60 or so from what I counted... what horrible observing though holy crap) 3) He didnt defend at all as he was skytoss which lacks in gateways and speed (which is why ling runby's and lings in general are extremely strong, they abuse the immobility of the protoss... which is why drops are good against terrans that go mech) 4) He didnt recall to defend 5) HE STILL LOST DESPITE HAVING A BANK OF 5K AND CLEANING OUT THE MAIN
Honestly, you are the single most dishonest person in the history of ever to claim that he dropped with 16 lings and killed everything. Now lets see you do that vs a terran that rallies a wave of 15 marines, 2 medivacs, and 2 widow mines every 30 seconds.
EDIT: For those curious, drop happens 13:47 in. Observer doesnt catch even a glimpse at it until 14:28. You see the number of lings used at 13:00. There are a total of I think 10 zealots warped in when they finally see it. These are also 3-3 cracklings
Nice straw man argument, from Zerg can't drop, Zerg drops suck, to: 1) ZvP is different, 2) he dropped way more lings, (Eariler posters said DROPS NEVER WORK) 3) See Good Game Sense aka skill, earlier post 4) Because it was a well executed backstab, Lowely still had his ultra, ling, queen, infestor, corruptor main force ready to move in at any time Hero recalled. 5) Lowely didn't attempt to stutter-fungal snipe the VRs at any point, he also engaged when he had Revelation on his main army...
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
So make missile turrets attack ground units? Since now they are 100% useless against ground units contrary to photon cannons. Terran mid-game air to ground is also as useless as zerg drops (banshee).
turrets are very good at their job. ovidrop is very bad at its job. bad comparison...wow cant believe how biased some people are. like i am zerg and all for buffing tanks, snipe, carrier build time, oracle. but maybe i am too objective of a player by recognizing T and P got useless stuff that would make the game more fun if buffed. same goes for Z but all the biased players here only look at their own race and got no idea that the game would be so much more fun if all races got more viable options.
I am not against viable options, but at the same time I want a balanced game. If you for example boost siege tanks it will have 0.0 effect on 4M compositions. But boosting drops is one of those things that always has an influence. It boosts for example also roach drops on mech openings. Aditionally it means you always will need to add extra static anti air, simply because of the chance he will come in with a (doom) drop. Even if drops aren't used it has an effect on the game.
That said I am not fundamentally against boosting zerg drops, I am against boosting drops because they would have to be as viable as terran/toss drops. I dont believe it is possible to do that while keeping a balanced game, unless you at the same time make terran/toss more equal to zerg.
Zerg drops have their place, it just isnt against bio. Drop play for EVERY race is used to abuse immobility.
That's also true. Boosting drop play will for example be yet another reason to go 4M vs zerg as terran, since it is simply much better at dealing with it than mech.
Thats also why I am very sceptic about boosting carriers. Yeah right now for TvZ they have little of a role because marines are very cost effective vs them (not supply effective though). Yet mech terran really doesn't like facing carriers.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVL0Dq8rziw Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
This guy here...
1) ZvP is hugely different than ZvT 2) He dropped WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than 16 lings (~60 or so from what I counted... what horrible observing though holy crap) 3) He didnt defend at all as he was skytoss which lacks in gateways and speed (which is why ling runby's and lings in general are extremely strong, they abuse the immobility of the protoss... which is why drops are good against terrans that go mech) 4) He didnt recall to defend 5) HE STILL LOST DESPITE HAVING A BANK OF 5K AND CLEANING OUT THE MAIN
Honestly, you are the single most dishonest person in the history of ever to claim that he dropped with 16 lings and killed everything. Now lets see you do that vs a terran that rallies a wave of 15 marines, 2 medivacs, and 2 widow mines every 30 seconds.
EDIT: For those curious, drop happens 13:47 in. Observer doesnt catch even a glimpse at it until 14:28. You see the number of lings used at 13:00. There are a total of I think 10 zealots warped in when they finally see it. These are also 3-3 cracklings
Nice straw man argument, from Zerg can't drop, Zerg drops suck, to: 1) ZvP is different, 2) he dropped way more lings, (Eariler posters said DROPS NEVER WORK) 3) See Good Game Sense aka skill, earlier post 4) Because it was a well executed backstab, Lowely still had his ultra, ling, queen, infestor, corruptor main force ready to move in at any time Hero recalled. 5) Lowely didn't attempt to stutter-fungal snipe the VRs at any point, he also engaged when he had Revelation on his main army...
I have never said drops suck. Ever. I think you are trolling at this point and deserve to be reported. Also, you are falling for straw man, you are using the fallacy wrong. We are discussing TvZ and you pop in with a skytoss ling drop, misrepresent what actually happened in the game, and even misrepresent our arguments by telling us that we think lings are bad? Now you are telling us that we think drops are bad?
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
So make missile turrets attack ground units? Since now they are 100% useless against ground units contrary to photon cannons. Terran mid-game air to ground is also as useless as zerg drops (banshee).
turrets are very good at their job. ovidrop is very bad at its job. bad comparison...wow cant believe how biased some people are. like i am zerg and all for buffing tanks, snipe, carrier build time, oracle. but maybe i am too objective of a player by recognizing T and P got useless stuff that would make the game more fun if buffed. same goes for Z but all the biased players here only look at their own race and got no idea that the game would be so much more fun if all races got more viable options.
I am not against viable options, but at the same time I want a balanced game. If you for example boost siege tanks it will have 0.0 effect on 4M compositions. But boosting drops is one of those things that always has an influence. It boosts for example also roach drops on mech openings. Aditionally it means you always will need to add extra static anti air, simply because of the chance he will come in with a (doom) drop. Even if drops aren't used it has an effect on the game.
That said I am not fundamentally against boosting zerg drops, I am against boosting drops because they would have to be as viable as terran/toss drops. I dont believe it is possible to do that while keeping a balanced game, unless you at the same time make terran/toss more equal to zerg.
Just because I think it is an interesting topic: Of course buffing tanks doesn't have an effect on 4M compositions, but I think there would be obvious advantages if tank play was en par with mine play. And, therefore, the composition might change into a more powerful/well rounded/different one. For example, tanks early on are pretty good because they make you safe, right? Now, if tanks can do the mines job somewhat, you'd rather open tanks, because there is no reason to take extra risks if you can avoid them. And as you need a techlab factory later on anyways (drilling claws), there is quite a chance that you'd rather build a tank and 2mines, than 3mines right?
So, I think there would be changes. Some people would rather play with tanks than mines, and others might mix them more, if not for power reasons, maybe just for production/safety reasons. (all of that would of course depend on that theoretical tank buff. If it's a straight damage buff, they would be mainly buffed against zergling/baneling/roach type of play. If it is a main damage buff - the thing I'd love to see - it would be mainly buffed vs ultralisk/infestor/roach type of play and you'd rather add them only early on and in the lategame, while in between you'd still prefer mines)
Oh not saying it wouldn't have an effect, for sure tank play would become more popular. However currently 4M is dominant in TvZ. So boosting units that cannot be integrated with 4M will have little effect on balance. Just like boosting for example hydras will have little effect on TvZ, since hydras aren't used often.
At the same time you have to watch out you don't make the less popular option even worse. And that's what for example I am afraid of when people propose to boost carriers. Sure vs bio terran that shouldn't upset balance. However it could be a real problem for mech terran. It is already played much less than bio vs toss, but if you want it to be a somewhat viable option you have to also take it into account.
For boosting tanks you also have to watch out it doesn't effect zerg all-ins too much imo. All-ins are needed to keep players honest: you cannot go for ultra-greedy play without at least risking a BO loss. But if tanks in low numbers become much better vs roaches it will mean terran can play more greedy. That way even though in this example the ling/bling/muta composition isn't affected, and the 4M composition isn't changed, still it could be a real buff to terran when going 4M vs a zerg going ling/bling/muta, simply because he can open greedier.
Imo. Buff roaches, and buff tanks could lead to much more cool things in TvZ. CC first into 3CC double ebay should be a reactionnary play, or a really greedy one. Not the go-to. A few roaches in a Z comp is already good. (Different speeds give natural spread against splash), and more roaches/less lings give more unit attacking at a time. And btw, if the T is spread, even 10 Marines/marauders don't kill a lonely roach before the mine is launched.
For toss, everything that could be shield-bases and therefore harrassement-bases could be great and diversify toss play/techpaths (mix of GWsky comp, better stalkers etc...).
At the same time you have to watch out you don't make the less popular option even worse. And that's what for example I am afraid of when people propose to boost carriers. Sure vs bio terran that shouldn't upset balance. However it could be a real problem for mech terran. It is already played much less than bio vs toss, but if you want it to be a somewhat viable option you have to also take it into account.
but mech doesn't have to be viable vs P. i could be wrong but i believed that in broodwar terran players were forced to go mech because bio would just get destroyed. they were OK with it then so why hate on it now. i would love to have a gateway only army work vs terran or make skytoss work. but if i dont have collosi or HT out at the 15 minute mark then i am dead. not everything has to work vs everything. and if people keep whining that mech needs a buff vs P then i would love for skytoss to get a buff or gateway units so that they are equal to MMM. and i would love to see roaches and hydra receive a buff vs terran bio. stating that "if you want mech to be a viable option" shit is the same as protoss and zerg whining about the shit i said 3 sentences ago. so no i don't think mech has to EVER be viable against protoss.
On July 26 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote: Tbh zerg drops are worse than terran and toss. Although their doom drops are easier to get to.
However more important, races are just different. Yeah zerg isn't best for drops. But they have ling runbies, superior production, etc. You cannot just make zerg drops equal to those of terran/toss without just starting to make every race equal.
not equal but useful. right now they are 100% useless which isnt good right? i get that T and especially P is afraid of doom drops and no one is asking to make them from completely useless to completely OP...we just want them to be useful! just buff it in small steps like a small speedbuff for speedovis which move at HT speed and are therefore spotted early enough even by low level players.
and please dont ever do the argument different races are different. if you bring that blizz shouldve never buffed WP because you now...different races are different, let T be the drop race and let P and Z drop suck...luckily they dont think so which gives me some hope that one far day away in the future maybe they finally make ovidrop useful.
So make missile turrets attack ground units? Since now they are 100% useless against ground units contrary to photon cannons. Terran mid-game air to ground is also as useless as zerg drops (banshee).
turrets are very good at their job. ovidrop is very bad at its job. bad comparison...wow cant believe how biased some people are. like i am zerg and all for buffing tanks, snipe, carrier build time, oracle. but maybe i am too objective of a player by recognizing T and P got useless stuff that would make the game more fun if buffed. same goes for Z but all the biased players here only look at their own race and got no idea that the game would be so much more fun if all races got more viable options.
I am not against viable options, but at the same time I want a balanced game. If you for example boost siege tanks it will have 0.0 effect on 4M compositions. But boosting drops is one of those things that always has an influence. It boosts for example also roach drops on mech openings. Aditionally it means you always will need to add extra static anti air, simply because of the chance he will come in with a (doom) drop. Even if drops aren't used it has an effect on the game.
That said I am not fundamentally against boosting zerg drops, I am against boosting drops because they would have to be as viable as terran/toss drops. I dont believe it is possible to do that while keeping a balanced game, unless you at the same time make terran/toss more equal to zerg.
Zerg drops have their place, it just isnt against bio. Drop play for EVERY race is used to abuse immobility.
That's also true. Boosting drop play will for example be yet another reason to go 4M vs zerg as terran, since it is simply much better at dealing with it than mech.
Thats also why I am very sceptic about boosting carriers. Yeah right now for TvZ they have little of a role because marines are very cost effective vs them (not supply effective though). Yet mech terran really doesn't like facing carriers.
yeah so drops would be better vs 4M (which is a good thing since its probably OP) and also better vs mech but since i also suggested a tank buff that balances out and if mech is too weak, buff it more, np there. also drops would get viable ZvP and ZvZ. they are just bad in every MU since 4 years now so more than enough time to be figured out. same goes for nydus. the thing is that non-muta comps cant harrass consistently and therefore P and T can play insanely greedy vs non-muta comps while they arent even that good in a direct engagement (except SHs in ZvP). so yeah Z definetly needs better harrassment options.
At the same time you have to watch out you don't make the less popular option even worse. And that's what for example I am afraid of when people propose to boost carriers. Sure vs bio terran that shouldn't upset balance. However it could be a real problem for mech terran. It is already played much less than bio vs toss, but if you want it to be a somewhat viable option you have to also take it into account.
but mech doesn't have to be viable vs P. i could be wrong but i believed that in broodwar terran players were forced to go mech because bio would just get destroyed. they were OK with it then so why hate on it now. i would love to have a gateway only army work vs terran or make skytoss work. but if i dont have collosi or HT out at the 15 minute mark then i am dead. not everything has to work vs everything. and if people keep whining that mech needs a buff vs P then i would love for skytoss to get a buff or gateway units so that they are equal to MMM. and i would love to see roaches and hydra receive a buff vs terran bio. stating that "if you want mech to be a viable option" shit is the same as protoss and zerg whining about the shit i said 3 sentences ago. so no i don't think mech has to EVER be viable against protoss.
Yeah then I guess we can agree to disagree there. I think it is more fun if races have several options they can choose.
Terran has the bio route, the mech route, and something in between. Zerg has several quite different compositions (yes also not always all viable, but I wouldn't mind if that is addressed too). And then you get to why I don't like toss: There is just one route, make a mix of everything in one big deathball. Airtoss is however also seen quite often in PvZ (sure with support). And against terran mech it also is quite reasonable.
but mech doesn't have to be viable vs P. i could be wrong but i believed that in broodwar terran players were forced to go mech because bio would just get destroyed. they were OK with it then so why hate on it now. i would love to have a gateway only army work vs terran or make skytoss work. but if i dont have collosi or HT out at the 15 minute mark then i am dead. not everything has to work vs everything. and if people keep whining that mech needs a buff vs P then i would love for skytoss to get a buff or gateway units so that they are equal to MMM.
This is such a silly argument. Just because Bio didn't work in BW doesn't mean mech shouldn't work in SC2 and by buffing mech you're proxy bufffing both gateway armies and skytoss as both of those can be used to combat mech. The issue with the game design is MMM is the only thing everyone ever wants to use as it's too versatile.
Also Skytoss will never be viable against bio purely because the marine can shoot up.
EPT
