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On July 26 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 22:31 Pirfiktshon wrote:
So Dwf what do you think they do wrong? Or have you beaten this strategy playing zerg? If so describe how..... Well, are they scouting your timing in the first place? Are they stopping drones at the correct timing so they have enough units to hold your attack? Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 22:39 ETisME wrote:On July 26 2013 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 22:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:I will say after last night me playing TvZ 3 games against Low masters and completely destroying them with 2 base widow mine play into 4 base Raven MMMM I have to start siding with zergs  . Widow mines are giving me the option to Punish 3 base play to the point where 90% of the time I can win the game on micro alone with 2 bases right there and then..... IMHO Zerg should be able to hold 2 base play with a 10 min push with 3 bases with good defense but even with defense it seems like i steam roll them regardless  . Here is my proposal that mines stay the same but the production can only happen with a techlab as oppose to being able to make 2 at a time.... the production speed of widow mines seems to play a HUGE roll in this attack seeing how I can pretty much without let up attack zerg and drop his main and push creep all at the same time giving me at the very least a game winning advantage in the late game.... I honestly don't see how a zerg can beat this strategy So i'd like to put it up to someone who is Masters / GM that has played against this strat as zerg and won and how they did so..... If your Zerg opponents are dying to simple 2-bases timings they're 100% doing something terribly wrong. didn't stephano fall against Mvp to his 2 base marauder hellbat? Ryung used to do the same build without going all in and had tonnes of damage done as well (GSTL) Marauder/Hellbat was much stronger than the standard Marines/Hellions/Medivac timing, but it was patched anyway.
Doesn´t hellbat still do the same damage v roaches and two shots lings?
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@GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time....
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That you win TvZ on ladder easily doesn't say anything. First of all it is an N=1 argument. Not very relevant, especially since blizzard says the win-rates are fairly equal. Of course matchmaking keeps it overall at 50%, but if TvZ was extremely T favored on ladder you would see it.
Next the problem is that you easily winning TvZs can be interpreted two ways: you are very good in TvZ, or you are very bad at TvT and TvP. So maybe the isn't isn't that TvZ is too easy, but that you are too bad at TvP and TvT.
I am looking at an alternative for the two-base play attacks I now do vs zerg (not all-ins). Especially 3-base roaches are I think very good against most 2-base tactics of terrans. Doesn't really matter if you are cost effective vs them when they simply have way more than you have.
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always fun to read about "other opinions are stupid"...but here is mine...its super thoughtful and adds value to the discussion O.o
game seems mostly balanced to me, problem with it is that its super boring to me, from terran perspective its like tvp bio, tvz bio mines, tvt depending on the map and tvp is going this direction for 3 years now...thats sad and i personally dont understand why this isnt looked at <:
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Actually .... I don't struggle in any match up just TvZ seems a little easier than it should..... If you waited long enough for them to start massing that hard in 3 base roach you #1 waited to long to push and they saturated their 3rd enough to keep up with you #2 Your macro has slipped when you were pushing and now you are behind in production to not keep up with their roach production.....
Also if they do go roach you just go drop crazy to punish their tech choice and keep them on the back foot power up 1 more fact take a 3rd and pump tanks and push ftw..... LOL
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On July 26 2013 23:19 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
always fun to read about "other opinions are stupid"...but here is mine...its super thoughtful and adds value to the discussion O.o
game seems mostly balanced to me, problem with it is that its super boring to me, from terran perspective its like tvp bio, tvz bio mines, tvt depending on the map and tvp is going this direction for 3 years now...thats sad and i personally dont understand why this isnt looked at <:
I agree some
TvP is boring usually
ZvP is boring usually
TvZ is usually fun (if zerg goes muta/ling/bane) versus bio/mine) Mech play is sad, and rangestyle from zerg is usually kind of sad to
TvT dunno, can be good
PvP is usually semi boring/boring because of mass colossous camp style
ZvZ is kinda sad , which means so one dimensional right now
Everything with P is kinda sad, it is like the race is designed for command and conquer
Blizzard cares to much about balance imo right now, what can i do?
And only one RTS game out there (Only one viable)
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Maybe I'm just use to WOL and having that feeling that you are always playing from behind and with the new toys it feels like you can get ahead in tvz and its a little to ez LOL
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On July 26 2013 14:54 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 14:41 jkim91 wrote:On July 26 2013 14:05 Rabiator wrote:On July 26 2013 11:00 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas. The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes. Too many players are following a dogmatic rules. One of them is "I ... must ... kill ... enemy army ... to win." which is totally stupid. You need to analyze the weak spot of the enemy race and then hit them where it hurts. For Zerg it isnt that much the Drones but rather the Queens and hatcheries which pose a limitation for example, because without Queens they have far less larvae to actually use to reproduce units. For Protoss there are certain key tech buildings which they usually only build once ... and the same is true for Zerg as well. So where does it hurt really hard for Terrans? The easy and very obvious answer is THE PRODUCTION buildings and the addons in particular. So if you want to harrass your Terran opponent DONT attack his expansions, because nothing is easier than saturating one with MULEs (and many people complain about Terrans not needing that much gas). It takes one SCV a pretty long time to build a production building, but you also need to add an addon and that takes yet more time. If you kill those addons his production will be crippled for a short time and thats the time to strike at his army ... he wont be able to reproduce as much stuff as he wants and would also be more limited in his choices. To attack a Terran you need to use ALL tools at your disposal and that includes burrow (to force the Terran to expend more scans), good creep spread (yet more scans and scouting for you), burrowed movement and Overlord drop upgrades. All of these nifty and tricksy movement upgrades will make your units much more long lasting, because the opponent will not have an easy time to get rid of them. One or two Overlords filled with Roaches or even Hydras do NOT have the same killing power as eight Marauders, but if you are spreading them out and burrowing you can keep a significant part of the opposing army AND the opposing player busy.in his own base. This creates an opportunity to strike at the front and thats exactly what Terrans are doing with multiple drops at different places ... whose main job isnt really to kill stuff (they will do it, but only as an added bonus) but rather to distract the enemy. You just need to learn to do the same. It is really annoying that none of the Zerg progamers seem to understand this achilles heel of Terrans and they all try to follow the mantra of "kill economy to win" while ignoring the fact that the production is the limiting factor for the Terran. Just try it out and dont skimp on those important upgrades ... I think the main problem is getting to the production buildings because they're pretty well-defended throughout the game. Plus, bio is pretty mobile and even a small group of it is sufficient to hold off most harassment. Thats why you do it via Overlord drops and sneaky burrowed Roaches ... - if the Terran builds lots of turrets you "win" because he spent a lot of resources on that - tf the Terran builds lots of Vikings you "win" because they are pretty much useless against all the ground stuff AND he doesnt build Medivacs instead The key is to NOT try and break that wall with your head but instead use that head to think your way through it. Oh and you need to start ASAP with harrassing the production .... which is the same as killing a hatchery for the Zerg.
Terran doesn't need to build a lot of turrets, due to scan and Terran doesn't need to build a lot of Vikings(except for Brood Lords) due to marines.
Also, harassing the Terran production is much more difficult and ineffective, compared to sniping the hatchery.
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On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote:
@GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time.... You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
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On July 26 2013 23:26 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Actually .... I don't struggle in any match up just TvZ seems a little easier than it should..... If you waited long enough for them to start massing that hard in 3 base roach you #1 waited to long to push and they saturated their 3rd enough to keep up with you #2 Your macro has slipped when you were pushing and now you are behind in production to not keep up with their roach production.....
Also if they do go roach you just go drop crazy to punish their tech choice and keep them on the back foot power up 1 more fact take a 3rd and pump tanks and push ftw..... LOL
If you easily win all your TvZs you struggle in other matchups. Simple as that. Otherwise you would have a higher rank, in which case revert to 1.
And I didn't wait to let them start massing, I attack and then they switch to pure roach production. At which point they can really quickly overwhelm your army. And you can macro what you want, a 2-base terran isn't going to outproduce a 3-base zerg that is mass producing roaches. 'LOL'.
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On July 26 2013 23:27 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 23:19 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
always fun to read about "other opinions are stupid"...but here is mine...its super thoughtful and adds value to the discussion O.o
game seems mostly balanced to me, problem with it is that its super boring to me, from terran perspective its like tvp bio, tvz bio mines, tvt depending on the map and tvp is going this direction for 3 years now...thats sad and i personally dont understand why this isnt looked at <: I agree some TvP is boring usually ZvP is boring usually TvZ is usually fun (if zerg goes muta/ling/bane) versus bio/mine) Mech play is sad, and rangestyle from zerg is usually kind of sad to TvT dunno, can be good PvP is usually semi boring/boring because of mass colossous camp style ZvZ is kinda sad , which means so one dimensional right now Everything with P is kinda sad, it is like the race is designed for command and conquer Blizzard cares to much about balance imo right now, what can i do? And only one RTS game out there (Only one viable)
TvP is boring to a lot of people because only bio is possible. Thats a Terran problem that shouldn't reflect negatively on the p
Protoss race as a whole because you can't play mech.
And it's obviously been too long since you've given PvP a chance. Colossus camping isn't viable anymore because of tempests. There's actually multiple viable styles and mid-late game options in PvP, and with the recent warp prisms changes, a lot of harassment opportunity. PvP is pretty close to, if not better than TvT in terms of mirrors IMO.
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Dude by the time I'm pushing out its 9 mins you add ur 3rd cc at about that same time and you start pushing... This timing is very very powerful on 2 player maps. Even if zerg made their 3rd at 5:30 greedy as can be you will still have a POWERFUL blow.... I do agree that roaches do a good job at defending this I'm just saying that you can cripple them by dropping and putting pressure at the front taking your third and macroing up with production facilites and it still puts you ahead.... If you are having a problem with 3 base roach timings you need to look at your build and timings .....
I'm just trying to state a balance that seems to be tipped in terrans favor in TvZ not discussing if I'm good in other matchups....
Last Time I checked this is a Balance discussion yes? Not how bad you are at TvZ if you want lessons I charge 50$ an hour LOL
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TvP is boring to a lot of people because only bio is possible. Thats a Terran problem that shouldn't reflect negatively on the Protoss race as a whole because you can't play mech.
This isn't why TvP is boring. It's boring because Terran has one safe macro opening and one risky macro opening. Everything else is either a one-shot build or non-viable. It's not like Protoss has options aside from Templar into Colossi or Colossi into Templar. The difference is that there are so many variations on these two paths that Protoss feels dynamic to play. Terran, on the other hand, is pretty limited. As much as I love using it, I'd say that the Nexus Cannon is a bit too strong, since it turns the game into a no-rush style match until 10+ minutes. Yes, Protoss needed some sort of early-game defense in HotS, but Photon Overcharge is simply far too powerful for what it costs; it also lasts for a pretty long time.
Making mech viable would actually make TvP even less interesting, because mech is a really passive composition, so we'd just have players turtling on 3-4 bases and then having a deathball fight (which isn't interesting at all). Also, nobody wants to watch a bo3 with 60 minute games.
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@Shiori I Love you man.... I feel like a protoss has finally come out of the closet hahahahaha. Honestly I think Range nerf or duration nerf is pretty much all you would need to make it balanced.
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On July 26 2013 23:19 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
always fun to read about "other opinions are stupid"...but here is mine...its super thoughtful and adds value to the discussion O.o
game seems mostly balanced to me, problem with it is that its super boring to me, from terran perspective its like tvp bio, tvz bio mines, tvt depending on the map and tvp is going this direction for 3 years now...thats sad and i personally dont understand why this isnt looked at <: Exactly, and it's kind of sad. The game had so much potential. It was pretty clear what they had to do to make the game a more enjoyable experience. They had to stop giving Terran the easy option. Stop allowing them to fight a 50 minute match stuck on T1 units that they use in every matchup. Stop giving them a harassment option that's so powerful that they'd have to be morons to not stay on bio and medivacs. Start holding them to the same standards as the other races, whereby late game they need to supplement their T1 army with units from T3 tech buildings.
Instead, what David Kim decided to do was to buff bio. The design flaws that were present in Starcraft 2 from the beginning were now compounded. The pre-eminence of bio was locked in place for all time.
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On July 26 2013 23:46 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 23:27 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 23:19 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
always fun to read about "other opinions are stupid"...but here is mine...its super thoughtful and adds value to the discussion O.o
game seems mostly balanced to me, problem with it is that its super boring to me, from terran perspective its like tvp bio, tvz bio mines, tvt depending on the map and tvp is going this direction for 3 years now...thats sad and i personally dont understand why this isnt looked at <: I agree some TvP is boring usually ZvP is boring usually TvZ is usually fun (if zerg goes muta/ling/bane) versus bio/mine) Mech play is sad, and rangestyle from zerg is usually kind of sad to TvT dunno, can be good PvP is usually semi boring/boring because of mass colossous camp style ZvZ is kinda sad , which means so one dimensional right now Everything with P is kinda sad, it is like the race is designed for command and conquer Blizzard cares to much about balance imo right now, what can i do? And only one RTS game out there (Only one viable) TvP is boring to a lot of people because only bio is possible. Thats a Terran problem that shouldn't reflect negatively on the p Protoss race as a whole because you can't play mech. And it's obviously been too long since you've given PvP a chance. Colossus camping isn't viable anymore because of tempests. There's actually multiple viable styles and mid-late game options in PvP, and with the recent warp prisms changes, a lot of harassment opportunity. PvP is pretty close to, if not better than TvT in terms of mirrors IMO.
I disagree with everything you said
PvP, the last proleague matches i saw was colossous war without tempests at sight
Tvp is not boring because terran plays bio, far from it
Nothing to do with bioplay
Its the deathball vs deathball, one big engagement and the match ends
Unit composition vs unit composition, this becomes very very stale, iut removes improvisation, it removes macroplay, it removes micro play, it removes decision making play
And its a cat and mice play the first 10min
Protoss moves out, terran camps
Now terran moves out with stim
Now protoss moves home, and moves out with colossous
Now terran moves home
When i say it removes macro, micro etc, well obviously its still there but in a small degree
You know beforehand u are gonna need this unit composition or you die
sort of, bio play is not boring nothing to do with that
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On July 27 2013 00:07 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 23:19 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
always fun to read about "other opinions are stupid"...but here is mine...its super thoughtful and adds value to the discussion O.o
game seems mostly balanced to me, problem with it is that its super boring to me, from terran perspective its like tvp bio, tvz bio mines, tvt depending on the map and tvp is going this direction for 3 years now...thats sad and i personally dont understand why this isnt looked at <: Exactly, and it's kind of sad. The game had so much potential. It was pretty clear what they had to do to make the game a more enjoyable experience. They had to stop giving Terran the easy option. Stop allowing them to fight a 50 minute match stuck on T1 units that they use in every matchup. Stop giving them a harassment option that's so powerful that they'd have to be morons to not stay on bio and medivacs. Start holding them to the same standards as the other races, whereby late game they need to supplement their T1 army with units from T3 tech buildings. Instead, what David Kim decided to do was to buff bio. The design flaws that were present in Starcraft 2 from the beginning were now compounded. The pre-eminence of bio was locked in place for all time.
Hmm, the bioplay tier1 with medivacs is Fun imo like alot of fun to watch, they should not change this
If they were gonna change things, they should start with PROTOSS
And if it turns out BIO is OP vs zerg, change zerg a bit
The tvz matchup bio/mine vs ling/Bane/muta is what sc2 is all about, its starcraft in heart overall
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Well BW TvZ was pretty much the same..... I don't know if you remember SK Terran but thats where all this pretty much comes from. I'm not complaining I just see a strong edge Terran has over zerg when going for the strong 10 min timing with a later CC is all....
There isn't much zerg can do about it.
About the Tier 1 units though I see where you are coming from but lets be honest what am I going to do ? Make thors let you take the map and just out mass me without let up until I break? There is very little that actually supplements Tier 1 units in the Terran composition effectively that makes it viable.....
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On July 26 2013 23:39 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote:
@GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time.... You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
"Apologists", what utter nonsense. That presumes that saying that the game is balanced (exactly as David Kim today said about tournament and ladder stats ) is somehow wrong, and this is the best thing, exactly in the same way defending rapists is bad (the term apologists is most commonly used in conjunction with rape these days). To equate providing concrete evidence for the fallacy of your statements with defending rape is beyond malignant. You're here to troll, or you're entirely delusional about the world.
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My TvZ in wings was 34%. My TvP was 60%
This is my TvZ/TvP now: http://i.imgur.com/sUaO0fg.jpg
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
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EPT
