Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Rab is correct, fundamentally Terrans have no shortcut to produce large volumes of units. Every reactor is 50s, 50m 50gas each and even those limit us to low tier units for their tech level (marine, reaper, widow mine, hellion, medivac, viking)
Snipe the 400hp tech lab and no more siege tanks... Whereas, T has to go through 850 hp to stop Roach or Hydra production.
Terran can't chrono out marauders faster nor stay on top of our "spawn larvae" to "suddenly" produce more Corruptors.
Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
This guy here...
1) ZvP is hugely different than ZvT 2) He dropped WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than 16 lings (~60 or so from what I counted... what horrible observing though holy crap) 3) He didnt defend at all as he was skytoss which lacks in gateways and speed (which is why ling runby's and lings in general are extremely strong, they abuse the immobility of the protoss... which is why drops are good against terrans that go mech) 4) He didnt recall to defend 5) HE STILL LOST DESPITE HAVING A BANK OF 5K AND CLEANING OUT THE MAIN
Honestly, you are the single most dishonest person in the history of ever to claim that he dropped with 16 lings and killed everything. Now lets see you do that vs a terran that rallies a wave of 15 marines, 2 medivacs, and 2 widow mines every 30 seconds.
EDIT: For those curious, drop happens 13:47 in. Observer doesnt catch even a glimpse at it until 14:28. You see the number of lings used at 13:00. There are a total of I think 10 zealots warped in when they finally see it. These are also 3-3 cracklings
Nice straw man argument, from Zerg can't drop, Zerg drops suck, to: 1) ZvP is different, 2) he dropped way more lings, (Eariler posters said DROPS NEVER WORK) 3) See Good Game Sense aka skill, earlier post 4) Because it was a well executed backstab, Lowely still had his ultra, ling, queen, infestor, corruptor main force ready to move in at any time Hero recalled. 5) Lowely didn't attempt to stutter-fungal snipe the VRs at any point, he also engaged when he had Revelation on his main army...
I have never said drops suck. Ever. I think you are trolling at this point and deserve to be reported. Also, you are falling for straw man, you are using the fallacy wrong. We are discussing TvZ and you pop in with a skytoss ling drop, misrepresent what actually happened in the game, and even misrepresent our arguments by telling us that we think lings are bad? Now you are telling us that we think drops are bad?
Oh look what little bird told me,
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: ... Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
So only specifically roach harass and OL drops to Terran are bad.
Then I guess, I took your quotation out of context and Zerg roach drops or roach harass are only BAD VS TERRAN. For that I'm sorry, please continue.
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Because Zerg are learning in the school of hard knocks that to trade equally with 4M with muta/ling/ blings, a new skill called, "splits" is required.
No different than when Zerg was losing their muta flocks left and right to "sudden" Thors until they learnt to magic box.
On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: @GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time....
You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
"Apologists", what utter nonsense. That presumes that saying that the game is balanced (exactly as David Kim today said about tournament and ladder stats ) is somehow wrong, and this is the best thing, exactly in the same way defending rapists is bad (the term apologists is most commonly used in conjunction with rape these days). To equate providing concrete evidence for the fallacy of your statements with defending rape is beyond malignant. You're here to troll, or you're entirely delusional about the world.
You talk about trolling, yet you suggest that I'm equating people to rapists merely because I used the word "apologist"?
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Because Zerg are learning in the school of hard knocks that to trade equally with 4M with muta/ling/ blings, a new skill called, "splits" is required.
No different than when Zerg was losing their muta flocks left and right to "sudden" Thors until they learnt to magic box.
muahahahahahahahahaha.
if there was a contest of making up random stuff about starcraft history, you'd take first place for sure.
Stop allowing them to fight a 50 minute match stuck on T1 units that they use in every matchup. Stop giving them a harassment option that's so powerful that they'd have to be morons to not stay on bio and medivacs. Start holding them to the same standards as the other races, whereby late game they need to supplement their T1 army with units from T3 tech buildings.
Oh hey! It's the "tier" argument again. It feels like I'm back in 2011! Alright, here's the deal: analysis of tiers has no relevance to comparing races, because none of the races produce units similarly. The only race with a traditional RTS-style tier system is Zerg, since they have to upgrade their main structure in order to access new tech. But while Zerg is traditional in that sense, it's non-traditional in the sense that its production doesn't require specialized production facilities. Conversely, Terran produces the closest to a vanilla RTS style: they make buildings, those buildings train units, and after awhile they come out. As for Protoss, they have three completely divergent tech trees: Templar, Robotics, and Stargate. Of these three, the latter two produce units like Terran structures. Everything else in the Protoss arsenal (aside from the MSC) is produced from the Gateway, which means that it can be warped in i.e. non-traditional.
There simply aren't any good arguments as to why tiers should have any powers that they don't already have. One Ultralisk beats a Marauder or a group of Marines (with or without Medivacs). It's not like Terrans are making 20 Marines, 5 Marauders, and 3 Medivacs, and expecting to win with that against Colossus/HT/Chargelot. They're going for a mass-producible, mobile composition which has good synergy. As for tiers themselves, well, it's not like it takes any longer to tech to Colossi in a standard game than it does to get Reactored Medivacs. In fact, Medivacs require Barracks/Factory/Starport while Colossi require Gateway/Robo/Robo Bay (not going to count Cyber Core because it doesn't cost any Gas, doesn't produce any units, and is pretty much an add-on that you must get for your first Gateway). So that means that both races require their initial production structure, one intermediate structure (Factory/Robo) and then one additional structure for Medivacs/Colossi to actually be produced. There are slight differences like Protoss having Chrono/Cyber Core versus Tech Labs/Reactors, but if you actually watch TvP, you'll see that the first Colossi and Medivacs come out at similar times, provided there aren't any cheeses or all-ins going on.
Stop allowing them to fight a 50 minute match stuck on T1 units that they use in every matchup. Stop giving them a harassment option that's so powerful that they'd have to be morons to not stay on bio and medivacs. Start holding them to the same standards as the other races, whereby late game they need to supplement their T1 army with units from T3 tech buildings.
Oh hey! It's the "tier" argument again. It feels like I'm back in 2011! Alright, here's the deal: analysis of tiers has no relevance to comparing races, because none of the races produce units similarly. The only race with a traditional RTS-style tier system is Zerg, since they have to upgrade their main structure in order to access new tech. But while Zerg is traditional in that sense, it's non-traditional in the sense that its production doesn't require specialized production facilities. Conversely, Terran produces the closest to a vanilla RTS style: they make buildings, those buildings train units, and after awhile they come out. As for Protoss, they have three completely divergent tech trees: Templar, Robotics, and Stargate. Of these three, the latter two produce units like Terran structures. Everything else in the Protoss arsenal (aside from the MSC) is produced from the Gateway, which means that it can be warped in i.e. non-traditional.
There simply aren't any good arguments as to why tiers should have any powers that they don't already have. One Ultralisk beats a Marauder or a group of Marines (with or without Medivacs). It's not like Terrans are making 20 Marines, 5 Marauders, and 3 Medivacs, and expecting to win with that against Colossus/HT/Chargelot. They're going for a mass-producible, mobile composition which has good synergy. As for tiers themselves, well, it's not like it takes any longer to tech to Colossi in a standard game than it does to get Reactored Medivacs. In fact, Medivacs require Barracks/Factory/Starport while Colossi require Gateway/Robo/Robo Bay (not going to count Cyber Core because it doesn't cost any Gas, doesn't produce any units, and is pretty much an add-on that you must get for your first Gateway). So that means that both races require their initial production structure, one intermediate structure (Factory/Robo) and then one additional structure for Medivacs/Colossi to actually be produced. There are slight differences like Protoss having Chrono/Cyber Core versus Tech Labs/Reactors, but if you actually watch TvP, you'll see that the first Colossi and Medivacs come out at similar times, provided there aren't any cheeses or all-ins going on.
Nonsense! Any Terran unit that isn't BCs or Thors is tier 1, and they shouldn't be able to beat Zerg/Protoss tier 3! Rabble rabble rabble!
Yea the Tier discussion is a really hard one to compare between races.... Whats tier 1 whats tier 2 whats tier 3? lol If you were going by buildings Mar are tier 2? Ghosts are Tier 3? Tanks are Tier 3? Bcz are Tier 5?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Well crap you use that everyone is going to Die instantly...... Feel like its dragon ball Z *** GASP *** Your Power Level is 1 MILLION?!? How am I going to beat him...... SUPER SAIYEN MODE! hahahah kk Enough of that back to balance Discussion sorry
To change the subject from the usual balance whine...
Is it inevitable that the zerg metagame will always converge towards a late game filled with mass spines & spores?
WOL PvZ late game was an absolute nightmare, and when I see games like game 1 of MC vs. Jaedong in IEM (http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/436038356?t=3h8m), where Jaedong is behind all game economically but uses the cost efficiency of swarm hosts to get to a late game with mass static defense.
I think it might be inevitable because: 1 - in the late game, max supply actually becomes a resource and constraint 2 - static defense doesn't contribute towards supply 3 - zerg static defense can move
Of the three points, only 3 could be changed to stop this advantage for zerg. However, I really like the mechanic of being able to re position spines.
On July 27 2013 03:18 PeggyHill wrote: To change the subject from the usual balance whine...
Is it inevitable that the zerg metagame will always converge towards a late game filled with mass spines & spores?
WOL PvZ late game was an absolute nightmare, and when I see games like game 1 of MC vs. Jaedong in IEM (http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/436038356?t=3h8m), where Jaedong is behind all game economically but uses the cost efficiency of swarm hosts to get to a late game with mass static defense.
I think it might be inevitable because: 1 - in the late game, max supply actually becomes a resource and constraint 2 - static defense doesn't contribute towards supply 3 - zerg static defense can move
Of the three points, only 3 could be changed to stop this advantage for zerg. However, I really like the mechanic of being able to re position spines.
I don't think so. It's just going to be like that when the metagame is passive, aka artillery battles with Broodlords/Swarm hosts vs colossus/tank/viking/templar kind of play. Because then positioning becomes so important that everything becomes superslow and you actually can build up those walls. In a more mobile metagame, you simply cannot cover enough space with them against fast units.
On July 26 2013 23:19 {ToT}ColmA wrote: always fun to read about "other opinions are stupid"...but here is mine...its super thoughtful and adds value to the discussion O.o
game seems mostly balanced to me, problem with it is that its super boring to me, from terran perspective its like tvp bio, tvz bio mines, tvt depending on the map and tvp is going this direction for 3 years now...thats sad and i personally dont understand why this isnt looked at <:
I agree some TvP is boring usually ZvP is boring usually
TvZ is usually fun (if zerg goes muta/ling/bane) versus bio/mine) Mech play is sad, and rangestyle from zerg is usually kind of sad to TvT dunno, can be good
PvP is usually semi boring/boring because of mass colossous camp style ZvZ is kinda sad , which means so one dimensional right now
Everything with P is kinda sad, it is like the race is designed for command and conquer
Blizzard cares to much about balance imo right now, what can i do? And only one RTS game out there (Only one viable)
TvP is boring to a lot of people because only bio is possible. Thats a Terran problem that shouldn't reflect negatively on the p Protoss race as a whole because you can't play mech.
And it's obviously been too long since you've given PvP a chance. Colossus camping isn't viable anymore because of tempests. There's actually multiple viable styles and mid-late game options in PvP, and with the recent warp prisms changes, a lot of harassment opportunity. PvP is pretty close to, if not better than TvT in terms of mirrors IMO.
I disagree with everything you said
PvP, the last proleague matches i saw was colossous war without tempests at sight
Tvp is not boring because terran plays bio, far from it
Nothing to do with bioplay Its the deathball vs deathball, one big engagement and the match ends
Unit composition vs unit composition, this becomes very very stale, iut removes improvisation, it removes macroplay, it removes micro play, it removes decision making play
And its a cat and mice play the first 10min
Protoss moves out, terran camps Now terran moves out with stim Now protoss moves home, and moves out with colossous Now terran moves home
When i say it removes macro, micro etc, well obviously its still there but in a small degree You know beforehand u are gonna need this unit composition or you die sort of, bio play is not boring nothing to do with that
I understand everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when it's based it old attitudes that don't apply anymore that I cringe at least a little bit. PvP hasn't been colossus versus colossus to a WoL extent for a long time, while it might happen once in a blue moon because both players both happen to open colossi, it is in no way the norm and it can even be more interesting now because WP harass is so much more viable. Even if both players are going colossi there are plenty of avenues for interesting play.
Yeah, in addition without such a Collosus-dominated metagame, you get to see more sustained battles in PvP than elsewhere, due to DPS output that scales a bit less than say MMM
On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: @GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time....
You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
"Apologists", what utter nonsense. That presumes that saying that the game is balanced (exactly as David Kim today said about tournament and ladder stats ) is somehow wrong, and this is the best thing, exactly in the same way defending rapists is bad (the term apologists is most commonly used in conjunction with rape these days). To equate providing concrete evidence for the fallacy of your statements with defending rape is beyond malignant. You're here to troll, or you're entirely delusional about the world.
You talk about trolling, yet you suggest that I'm equating people to rapists merely because I used the word "apologist"?
When did you come back? I thought you were done with SC2 because Supernova won a game. "Starcraft is dead to me" or some such.
EPT
