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United States7483 Posts
On July 27 2013 12:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 08:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 27 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 01:20 Rhaegal wrote:My TvZ in wings was 34%. My TvP was 60% This is my TvZ/TvP now: http://i.imgur.com/sUaO0fg.jpgTake it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened. They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss. Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it. Um.....I am not sure if you are being sarcastic. I have always played Protoss poorly. I never played terran on any level. I am unimpressed by your claims that TvZ is terran favored, unless you mean that they can do damage in the first 10 minutes and can win games without having to all in before BL-infestor, like in WoL. If that is your standard for "terran favored", then I guess it is true.
TvZ is Innovation favored.
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On July 27 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:22 ChristianS wrote:On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game? Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right?
That is the only way to win TvP. Mothership core expand into robo means that every aggressive build is totally worthless. 3 base Protoss is unkillable unless you are miles ahead in skill level or Protoss forgets to hit the A key before they move out.
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On July 27 2013 13:40 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 06:22 ChristianS wrote:On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game? Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right? That is the only way to win TvP. Mothership core expand into robo means that every aggressive build is totally worthless. 3 base Protoss is unkillable unless you are miles ahead in skill level or Protoss forgets to hit the A key before they move out.
Okay, there's been a lot of talk along these lines, but "every aggressive build is totally worthless" is an exaggeration. There's definitely a lot more aggressive options for Protoss than Terran, but reaper pressure, proxy widow mine, and a few other things beg to differ. Hell, we saw a really cool push involving hellions from Supernova vs. Rain game 1 the other day that roasted a good number of probes.
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Below Master, Z >P >T >Z. The game is asymmetrically balanced at lower levels, but I feel for the high master Zerg who was way up in supply and was about to deal the killing blow to me when 35 banelings walked across 2 stray mines and they all died.
I think I have won maybe 3 out of my last 30 games vs Protoss. And they were customs against gold level.
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On July 27 2013 13:51 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Below Master, Z >P >T >Z. The game is asymmetrically balanced at lower levels, but I feel for the high master Zerg who was way up in supply and was about to deal the killing blow to me when 35 banelings walked across 2 stray mines and they all died.
I think I have won maybe 3 out of my last 30 games vs Protoss. And they were customs against gold level.
In that case, even if Terran is underpowered, your win rate is quite a bit below the average. Try the Terran Help Me thread. TheDwf has plenty of tips for how to do at least better than 10%, and it sure has helped me quite a bit
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On July 27 2013 13:47 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 13:40 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 27 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 06:22 ChristianS wrote:On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game? Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right? That is the only way to win TvP. Mothership core expand into robo means that every aggressive build is totally worthless. 3 base Protoss is unkillable unless you are miles ahead in skill level or Protoss forgets to hit the A key before they move out. Okay, there's been a lot of talk along these lines, but "every aggressive build is totally worthless" is an exaggeration. There's definitely a lot more aggressive options for Protoss than Terran, but reaper pressure, proxy widow mine, and a few other things beg to differ. Hell, we saw a really cool push involving hellions from Supernova vs. Rain game 1 the other day that roasted a good number of probes.
I have had success with reactor hellions, but only vs people that don't scout. 11 11 reaper arrives just as mothership core pops. You should not get a single probe kill vs anyone that isn't retarded. Proxy factory is basically an auto loss vs any Protoss 1 base play, it is a meta coinflip at best
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On July 27 2013 13:58 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 13:47 ChristianS wrote:On July 27 2013 13:40 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 27 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 06:22 ChristianS wrote:On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game? Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right? That is the only way to win TvP. Mothership core expand into robo means that every aggressive build is totally worthless. 3 base Protoss is unkillable unless you are miles ahead in skill level or Protoss forgets to hit the A key before they move out. Okay, there's been a lot of talk along these lines, but "every aggressive build is totally worthless" is an exaggeration. There's definitely a lot more aggressive options for Protoss than Terran, but reaper pressure, proxy widow mine, and a few other things beg to differ. Hell, we saw a really cool push involving hellions from Supernova vs. Rain game 1 the other day that roasted a good number of probes. I have had success with reactor hellions, but only vs people that don't scout. 11 11 reaper arrives just as mothership core pops. You should not get a single probe kill vs anyone that isn't retarded. Proxy factory is basically an auto loss vs any Protoss 1 base play, it is a meta coinflip at best
Not necessarily a coinflip. If you get a reaper, and then spend the next 100 gas on a proxy factory, you can put on some pressure and get a good scout off. If its stargate you might have to rally a widow mine home but you should be alright. And you can definitely defend blink stalkers, mass gateway pressure, or DTs.
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On July 27 2013 13:54 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 13:51 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Below Master, Z >P >T >Z. The game is asymmetrically balanced at lower levels, but I feel for the high master Zerg who was way up in supply and was about to deal the killing blow to me when 35 banelings walked across 2 stray mines and they all died.
I think I have won maybe 3 out of my last 30 games vs Protoss. And they were customs against gold level. In that case, even if Terran is underpowered, your win rate is quite a bit below the average. Try the Terran Help Me thread. TheDwf has plenty of tips for how to do at least better than 10%, and it sure has helped me quite a bit
TheDwf is an awesome human being but he has yet to tell me a reliable way to read 2 gas 2 pylon openings on Whirlwind. He has yet to provide late game advice better than "you could have dodged those storms better while dealing with the zealots at your main and the dts at your 4th." "Don't lose your whole army next time"
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I think one of the key fundamentals to playing TvP right now is learning the templar timings. If he opens colossus, learn when protoss usually get storm out, scan for it and hit just before it finishes.
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It is literally impossible to have a widow mine back to your main by the time proxy oracle hits. It is also impossible to have enough marines if you delay your reactor in order to make a factory. It is a coinflip. If they don't do a stalker/MSC poke and just let you run a mine into their main, you lose.
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On July 27 2013 14:13 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I think one of the key fundamentals to playing TvP right now is learning the templar timings. If he opens colossus, learn when protoss usually get storm out, scan for it and hit just before it finishes.
Ignoring the 100 allins that rely on luck to prepare for (ie finding the proxy gates/shrine/robo) and assuming Protoss just lets you take a quick 3 bases and 8 rax uncontested, how do your 65 SCVs fare against a Protoss that just forfeits his own third and forcefields you out of his natural? (Many maps they can hold the third as well)
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On July 27 2013 14:24 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 14:13 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I think one of the key fundamentals to playing TvP right now is learning the templar timings. If he opens colossus, learn when protoss usually get storm out, scan for it and hit just before it finishes. Ignoring the 100 allins that rely on luck to prepare for (ie finding the proxy gates/shrine/robo) and assuming Protoss just lets you take a quick 3 bases and 8 rax uncontested, how do your 65 SCVs fare against a Protoss that just forfeits his own third and forcefields you out of his natural? (Many maps they can hold the third as well)
I think that you need to practice more and scout more. If you think terran has it bad, try playing as zerg. In fact, play ZvZ. There are a ridiculous number of all-ins and odd timings that just end up killing you because you missed something and made too many drones or something.
In regards to him sacrificing 3rd: your 65 SCV's do just fine. If he decides to turtle on 2 bases you should be way ahead. He is on 2 bases. He wont have the gas to get HT and colossus and upgrades.
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WCG Korea qualifiers from Aligulac
PvT 52–36 (59%)
PvZ 44–44 (50%)
TvZ 50–40 (56%)
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On July 27 2013 08:52 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 01:20 Rhaegal wrote:My TvZ in wings was 34%. My TvP was 60% This is my TvZ/TvP now: http://i.imgur.com/sUaO0fg.jpgTake it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened. They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss. Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it.
You're still posting random claims, a quick look at Plansix's posting history shows he plays protoss and not terran.
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I see a lot of buff to protoss in the early game but can we get some lategame nerfs to them as well. No one likes playing vs colossi/high templar/voidray/stalker/sentry/ tempest
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On July 27 2013 17:56 Darkexp3rt wrote:
I see a lot of buff to protoss in the early game but can we get some lategame nerfs to them as well. No one likes playing vs colossi/high templar/voidray/stalker/sentry/ tempest
there are a lot of things that people dont want to play against, that's not a good reason to nerf.
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On July 27 2013 17:36 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 08:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 27 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 01:20 Rhaegal wrote:My TvZ in wings was 34%. My TvP was 60% This is my TvZ/TvP now: http://i.imgur.com/sUaO0fg.jpgTake it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened. They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss. Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it. You're still posting random claims, a quick look at Plansix's posting history shows he plays protoss and not terran.
Whoa whoa whoa there son. I play Protoss poorly. Saying I play protoss denotes that I might be good at it. I don't want to misrepresent myself.
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On July 27 2013 10:33 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 08:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 27 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 01:20 Rhaegal wrote:My TvZ in wings was 34%. My TvP was 60% This is my TvZ/TvP now: http://i.imgur.com/sUaO0fg.jpgTake it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened. They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss. Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it. Are you for real? The "real evidence" for TvZ being "vastly Terran favored" is 1 (as in one) non-pro player posting a screenshot with a small sample size and a TvZ win ratio of 63% while he has a ZvT win ratio in the same screenshot of 68%. Now those 68% are real evidence for - TvZ being even "vastly-ier Zerg favored"? - anecdotae like this being utterly meaningless? Pick one.
I never meant that 1 screenshot to be THE evidence for TvZ T favored. I just said, here's an evidence from a Terran supporter, and even that evidence proves to be in favor of TvZ balance being utterly broken
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And now I can also post a screenshot of my win ratio being worst vs zerg and best vs toss. It isn't THE evidence, and it also isn't evidence at all. It only proofs your best matchup is TvZ (after ZvT). It doesnt proof anything regarding balance, let alone it being 'utterly broken'. If you think N=1 statistics have any relevance then it is better if you just stay aways from stats.
Quite frankly what else I noticed from that page: That is yet again indicates that SC2 players are really loyal. I have played MMO, RTS and FPS games. In every one of those games, a large group of players ran towards whatever was strongest at that moment. Could be gear in MMOs, weapons in FPS, or races in an RTS. Yet of all those games, apparantly only SC2 is different. The most games you played were vs zerg. The least vs terran. SC2 ranks shows a similar image. So that surprises me a bit, considering in every other game people run to whatever is OP, yet in SC2 all those zerg players so incredibly loyal to their race they keep playing it despite it being utterly broken. And not only that, also no one runs to terran race, despite that terran apparantly has easy time considering how OP they are.
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On July 27 2013 14:24 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 14:13 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I think one of the key fundamentals to playing TvP right now is learning the templar timings. If he opens colossus, learn when protoss usually get storm out, scan for it and hit just before it finishes. Ignoring the 100 allins that rely on luck to prepare for (ie finding the proxy gates/shrine/robo) and assuming Protoss just lets you take a quick 3 bases and 8 rax uncontested, how do your 65 SCVs fare against a Protoss that just forfeits his own third and forcefields you out of his natural? (Many maps they can hold the third as well)
I personally don't find it 'luck' to figure out what protoss all-in is coming, I'm almost always able to figure out what is coming with a simple 12rax 12gas reaper opening with an earlier scv scout just based on gas timings, msc timing and what the first two units they make from their gateway are. I actually can't remember the last time I was caught off guard by dt's or an oracle.
If Protoss is stuck on two base and goes for a 2/2 or 3/3 storm + collosi push, it's actually very easy to beat them, winning 1 engagement vs Protoss when they have to be the aggressor isn't actually very hard. Just leave 1-2 medivacs of mauraders to continually deny their third (or force them to leave units behind, even better for you) and pull ~10 scvs, target down any HT and get a good spread to crush the push.
On July 27 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 10:33 Aiobhill wrote:On July 27 2013 08:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 27 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 01:20 Rhaegal wrote:My TvZ in wings was 34%. My TvP was 60% This is my TvZ/TvP now: http://i.imgur.com/sUaO0fg.jpgTake it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened. They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss. Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it. Are you for real? The "real evidence" for TvZ being "vastly Terran favored" is 1 (as in one) non-pro player posting a screenshot with a small sample size and a TvZ win ratio of 63% while he has a ZvT win ratio in the same screenshot of 68%. Now those 68% are real evidence for - TvZ being even "vastly-ier Zerg favored"? - anecdotae like this being utterly meaningless? Pick one. I never meant that 1 screenshot to be THE evidence for TvZ T favored. I just said, here's an evidence from a Terran supporter, and even that evidence proves to be in favor of TvZ balance being utterly broken
TvZ is far more balanced atm than it was towards the end of WoL. Win rates were hovering around 35% in favor of Zerg in major tournaments while currently TvZ winrates are close to 50%. That being said, I do agree TvZ is Terran favored on either maps where Terran can easily force a split map (i.e. Akilon Wastes) or maps where Terran can easily sit back and drop all day denying Zerg expansions (i.e. cross position Whirlwind) if Zerg lets Terran get away with a 3cc double upgrade opening into a 10-11 minute third.
And I'm a Terran with TvZ as my worst matchup.
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EPT
