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On July 28 2013 05:22 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:07 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. Actual results for Korea - July PL 8:3 GSTL 9:2 WCS Korea 20:22 37-27 - 57% + WCG 84-73 - 54% Zerg has actual +50% winrates in WCS season 2 Korea, they are losing mainly in teamleagues. Source: aligulac http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/PremierTvZ is 15:6 for T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Up_and_Downincluding up and down its 22:11. so dont know where you got your stats from. this is both including june stats since in july there arent played 42 games like you say. if i missed something please post source.
http://www.aligulac.com/results/search/?op=search&after=2013-07-01&before=2013-07-27&players=&eventtext=wcs korea&bo=all&offline=both&game=all
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On July 28 2013 05:22 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:07 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. Actual results for Korea - July PL 8:3 GSTL 9:2 WCS Korea 20:22 37-27 - 57% + WCG 84-73 - 54% Zerg has actual +50% winrates in WCS season 2 Korea, they are losing mainly in teamleagues. Source: aligulac http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/PremierTvZ is 15:6 for T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Up_and_Downincluding up and down its 22:11. so dont know where you got your stats from. this is both including june stats since in july there arent played 42 games like you say. if i missed something please post source. Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote:On July 28 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:13 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. You know David Kim just said that Zerg is doing the best on ladder of the 3 races, and that he doesn't see TvZ as a promlem. ladder = bronze to GM....statement = useless. they should and hopefully do balance only for high level tournaments and maybe top 20-50 GM. everything else doesnt matter. and if you read closely i said we have to maybe wait another month but if in august its the same TvZ is T favored for then half a year which means zerg could use a SLIGHT buff (for example to ovidrop and nydus). Actually, balance at the lower levels matters considerably. If nobody outside of pros could enjoy the game due to incredibly bad balance issues where only the best 2 players in the world could overcome a problem, everyone would stop playing the game and nobody would be there to prop up the pro scene with views anymore. There's a reason so many people watch LoL and Dota. It's because there's so many players. yeah on lower level the game needs to be balanced but balancing the units etc. themselves only has to be done on high level players and results.
So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won?
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On July 28 2013 05:47 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:22 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:07 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. Actual results for Korea - July PL 8:3 GSTL 9:2 WCS Korea 20:22 37-27 - 57% + WCG 84-73 - 54% Zerg has actual +50% winrates in WCS season 2 Korea, they are losing mainly in teamleagues. Source: aligulac http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/PremierTvZ is 15:6 for T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Up_and_Downincluding up and down its 22:11. so dont know where you got your stats from. this is both including june stats since in july there arent played 42 games like you say. if i missed something please post source. On July 28 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote:On July 28 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:13 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. You know David Kim just said that Zerg is doing the best on ladder of the 3 races, and that he doesn't see TvZ as a promlem. ladder = bronze to GM....statement = useless. they should and hopefully do balance only for high level tournaments and maybe top 20-50 GM. everything else doesnt matter. and if you read closely i said we have to maybe wait another month but if in august its the same TvZ is T favored for then half a year which means zerg could use a SLIGHT buff (for example to ovidrop and nydus). Actually, balance at the lower levels matters considerably. If nobody outside of pros could enjoy the game due to incredibly bad balance issues where only the best 2 players in the world could overcome a problem, everyone would stop playing the game and nobody would be there to prop up the pro scene with views anymore. There's a reason so many people watch LoL and Dota. It's because there's so many players. yeah on lower level the game needs to be balanced but balancing the units etc. themselves only has to be done on high level players and results. So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won?
FD won first GSL, so clearly zerg was op back then.
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On July 28 2013 05:47 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:22 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:07 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. Actual results for Korea - July PL 8:3 GSTL 9:2 WCS Korea 20:22 37-27 - 57% + WCG 84-73 - 54% Zerg has actual +50% winrates in WCS season 2 Korea, they are losing mainly in teamleagues. Source: aligulac http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/PremierTvZ is 15:6 for T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Up_and_Downincluding up and down its 22:11. so dont know where you got your stats from. this is both including june stats since in july there arent played 42 games like you say. if i missed something please post source. On July 28 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote:On July 28 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:13 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. You know David Kim just said that Zerg is doing the best on ladder of the 3 races, and that he doesn't see TvZ as a promlem. ladder = bronze to GM....statement = useless. they should and hopefully do balance only for high level tournaments and maybe top 20-50 GM. everything else doesnt matter. and if you read closely i said we have to maybe wait another month but if in august its the same TvZ is T favored for then half a year which means zerg could use a SLIGHT buff (for example to ovidrop and nydus). Actually, balance at the lower levels matters considerably. If nobody outside of pros could enjoy the game due to incredibly bad balance issues where only the best 2 players in the world could overcome a problem, everyone would stop playing the game and nobody would be there to prop up the pro scene with views anymore. There's a reason so many people watch LoL and Dota. It's because there's so many players. yeah on lower level the game needs to be balanced but balancing the units etc. themselves only has to be done on high level players and results. So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won?
You always defend terran, like a madman
What do u try to accomplish really, you sound biased as hell
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On July 28 2013 06:07 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:47 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 05:22 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:07 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. Actual results for Korea - July PL 8:3 GSTL 9:2 WCS Korea 20:22 37-27 - 57% + WCG 84-73 - 54% Zerg has actual +50% winrates in WCS season 2 Korea, they are losing mainly in teamleagues. Source: aligulac http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/PremierTvZ is 15:6 for T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Up_and_Downincluding up and down its 22:11. so dont know where you got your stats from. this is both including june stats since in july there arent played 42 games like you say. if i missed something please post source. On July 28 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote:On July 28 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:13 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. You know David Kim just said that Zerg is doing the best on ladder of the 3 races, and that he doesn't see TvZ as a promlem. ladder = bronze to GM....statement = useless. they should and hopefully do balance only for high level tournaments and maybe top 20-50 GM. everything else doesnt matter. and if you read closely i said we have to maybe wait another month but if in august its the same TvZ is T favored for then half a year which means zerg could use a SLIGHT buff (for example to ovidrop and nydus). Actually, balance at the lower levels matters considerably. If nobody outside of pros could enjoy the game due to incredibly bad balance issues where only the best 2 players in the world could overcome a problem, everyone would stop playing the game and nobody would be there to prop up the pro scene with views anymore. There's a reason so many people watch LoL and Dota. It's because there's so many players. yeah on lower level the game needs to be balanced but balancing the units etc. themselves only has to be done on high level players and results. So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? You always defend terran, like a madman What do u try to accomplish really, you sound biased as hell
He may be exaggerating, but it is true that this is the first WCS Korea in a while not won by zergs and zergs overall seem to be doing fine at the pro level. You can't just look at one tournement.
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On July 28 2013 06:07 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:47 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 05:22 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:07 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. Actual results for Korea - July PL 8:3 GSTL 9:2 WCS Korea 20:22 37-27 - 57% + WCG 84-73 - 54% Zerg has actual +50% winrates in WCS season 2 Korea, they are losing mainly in teamleagues. Source: aligulac http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/PremierTvZ is 15:6 for T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Up_and_Downincluding up and down its 22:11. so dont know where you got your stats from. this is both including june stats since in july there arent played 42 games like you say. if i missed something please post source. On July 28 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote:On July 28 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:13 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. You know David Kim just said that Zerg is doing the best on ladder of the 3 races, and that he doesn't see TvZ as a promlem. ladder = bronze to GM....statement = useless. they should and hopefully do balance only for high level tournaments and maybe top 20-50 GM. everything else doesnt matter. and if you read closely i said we have to maybe wait another month but if in august its the same TvZ is T favored for then half a year which means zerg could use a SLIGHT buff (for example to ovidrop and nydus). Actually, balance at the lower levels matters considerably. If nobody outside of pros could enjoy the game due to incredibly bad balance issues where only the best 2 players in the world could overcome a problem, everyone would stop playing the game and nobody would be there to prop up the pro scene with views anymore. There's a reason so many people watch LoL and Dota. It's because there's so many players. yeah on lower level the game needs to be balanced but balancing the units etc. themselves only has to be done on high level players and results. So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? You always defend terran, like a madman What do u try to accomplish really, you sound biased as hell
I just don't know why people decide to flip shit when a Zerg doesn't win a GSL for the first time in nearly a year, especially considering the fact they've won several tournaments in HOTS and David Kim's statement that they are performing the best on ladder...
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On July 28 2013 04:11 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 00:47 Orek wrote:On July 28 2013 00:21 Sissors wrote:
And now I can also post a screenshot of my win ratio being worst vs zerg and best vs toss. It isn't THE evidence, and it also isn't evidence at all. It only proofs your best matchup is TvZ (after ZvT). It doesnt proof anything regarding balance, let alone it being 'utterly broken'. If you think N=1 statistics have any relevance then it is better if you just stay aways from stats.
Quite frankly what else I noticed from that page: That is yet again indicates that SC2 players are really loyal. I have played MMO, RTS and FPS games. In every one of those games, a large group of players ran towards whatever was strongest at that moment. Could be gear in MMOs, weapons in FPS, or races in an RTS. Yet of all those games, apparantly only SC2 is different. The most games you played were vs zerg. The least vs terran. SC2 ranks shows a similar image. So that surprises me a bit, considering in every other game people run to whatever is OP, yet in SC2 all those zerg players so incredibly loyal to their race they keep playing it despite it being utterly broken. And not only that, also no one runs to terran race, despite that terran apparantly has easy time considering how OP they are. It was different during WoL. Early WoL: Terran was considered OP, Most played race = Terran End of WoL: Zerg was considered OP, Most played race = Zerg I guess Zerg underperformance in HotS started only recently. So, it might take a few more months until some of them switch to another race. Actually Zerg was least played race whole WoL but was much closer to other races at the end of it. Protoss was most played race for most of the time (outside of beginnig where Terran was more played)
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race
Yes that is true, however, terran is the least represented race from Platinum to Grandmaster globally at this moment, and it´s been like that for a long time.
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I don't understand how the discussion only seems to be about TvZ.. It seems like a great match up in the first place, and it also seems pretty balanced (disregarding Innovation that is). Why not talk about PvZ or Protoss in general.. if anything is wrong with balance it must be Protoss tbh, they are the ones that seem to be slightly underperforming.
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On July 28 2013 06:13 Jerom wrote:
I don't understand how the discussion only seems to be about TvZ.. It seems like a great match up in the first place, and it also seems pretty balanced (disregarding Innovation that is). Why not talk about PvZ or Protoss in general.. if anything is wrong with balance it must be Protoss tbh, they are the ones that seem to be slightly underperforming.
Can't see what you draw that from, protoss is doing decent. Every time a race loses a single game someone concludes that it's underperforming... (actually there's a corollary with players, every time they lose one series they were overrated / suck at the match-up and so on, cf Polt & Hyun at IEM Shanghai).
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I think talking about 'this race is underperforming' is a bad way to go about things in this thread. If you post something like 'mine splash damage seems really strong because of X', or 'photon overcharge totally shuts down all early aggression', then that might lead to meaningful discussion instead of players from different races just sniping at each other
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On July 28 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:13 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. You know David Kim just said that Zerg is doing the best on ladder of the 3 races, and that he doesn't see TvZ as a promlem. ladder = bronze to GM....statement = useless. they should and hopefully do balance only for high level tournaments and maybe top 20-50 GM. everything else doesnt matter. and if you read closely i said we have to maybe wait another month but if in august its the same TvZ is T favored for then half a year which means zerg could use a SLIGHT buff (for example to ovidrop and nydus). Actually, balance at the lower levels matters considerably. If nobody outside of pros could enjoy the game due to incredibly bad balance issues where only the best 2 players in the world could overcome a problem, everyone would stop playing the game and nobody would be there to prop up the pro scene with views anymore. There's a reason so many people watch LoL and Dota. It's because there's so many players.
No, balancing needs to be down at the top level. Lower level imbalance can be overcome by raising your skill. Back in BW, at D cup level, Protoss was super strong (novice level) but they weren't good at pro level. The game was still fun because you could be a D+ Terran or D+ Zerg and beat a D level Protoss. Same logic applies here.
On July 28 2013 03:26 BoReDWiTHLiFe wrote:
Also, this is very rich coming from the Zerg player with a Z bias wearing a Terran icon.
1) Terran icon is the starting default icon
2) I quit playing SC2 long time ago. I just spectate now.
3) When I did play SC2, I was a diamond Terran.
You're wrong in 3 ways, good job.
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On July 28 2013 06:11 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 06:07 Foxxan wrote:On July 28 2013 05:47 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 05:22 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:07 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. Actual results for Korea - July PL 8:3 GSTL 9:2 WCS Korea 20:22 37-27 - 57% + WCG 84-73 - 54% Zerg has actual +50% winrates in WCS season 2 Korea, they are losing mainly in teamleagues. Source: aligulac http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/PremierTvZ is 15:6 for T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Up_and_Downincluding up and down its 22:11. so dont know where you got your stats from. this is both including june stats since in july there arent played 42 games like you say. if i missed something please post source. On July 28 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote:On July 28 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 05:13 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On July 28 2013 03:26 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that? WCG qualifiers from the past 2 days: TvZ 47–46 (51%) And Innovation/Flash in SPL have 20 TvZ wins between themselves, so that stat line is skewed as hell. thats 93 games including non-highest level games. now if you add the 67% winrate of 78 games from OSL, GSTL and PL since june you will be somewhere around 60% winrate for T in TvZ and even the 40% come from a decent amount of Z all ins. so yeah something is definetly very wrong in TvZ right now (and its T favored since 5 months now but this month is the worst). since the 4 months before it was already T favored but not that much we will maybe have to wait another month to see if the trend continues. whats definetly already seeable is that roach hydra, SHs + support or ling infestor all dont work vs MMMM since they are bad in a direct engagement AND bad at defending drops AND bad at harrassing since ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement all suck since 4 years and need to be looked at. You know David Kim just said that Zerg is doing the best on ladder of the 3 races, and that he doesn't see TvZ as a promlem. ladder = bronze to GM....statement = useless. they should and hopefully do balance only for high level tournaments and maybe top 20-50 GM. everything else doesnt matter. and if you read closely i said we have to maybe wait another month but if in august its the same TvZ is T favored for then half a year which means zerg could use a SLIGHT buff (for example to ovidrop and nydus). Actually, balance at the lower levels matters considerably. If nobody outside of pros could enjoy the game due to incredibly bad balance issues where only the best 2 players in the world could overcome a problem, everyone would stop playing the game and nobody would be there to prop up the pro scene with views anymore. There's a reason so many people watch LoL and Dota. It's because there's so many players. yeah on lower level the game needs to be balanced but balancing the units etc. themselves only has to be done on high level players and results. So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? You always defend terran, like a madman What do u try to accomplish really, you sound biased as hell I just don't know why people decide to flip shit when a Zerg doesn't win a GSL for the first time in nearly a year, especially considering the fact they've won several tournaments in HOTS and David Kim's statement that they are performing the best on ladder...
Did you NOT read the other guy's post? Ladder is from Bronze to GM. Ladder balance doesnt mean anything compared to pro balance. And winning GSL does not indicate balance. Did you not remember my quote about how the first GSL was won by a Zerg when Zergs were severely underpowered?
Do you just defend Terran without any thought or do you actually put in some thoughts when you become heavily Terran biased defender?
On July 28 2013 03:20 Avi-Love wrote:I played sc:bw for many years, and I've played Sc2 since the release, I've never been one to complain about balance, or to use it as an excuse - but I honestly think that zerg is not in a great spot right now. I feel that TvZ is quite terran favoured, and the best chance zerg has of winning are doing predictable, easy to scout, and easy to stop all ins. I realize that at a non-competitive level, imbalances will always be easy to overcome, because your opponent will make a lot of mistakes; and as such, I only think and care about balance in the highest level of play; http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSLThe three biggest tournaments in Korea, with the absolute best of the best - and regardless of the "sample size", I think you would have to be really biased to no notice the trends. However, since the purpose of my post was not to complain, whine, or force my opinion on anyone, I thought about ways of improving the matchup for zerg - while it's probably not original, I would like to see zerg structures buffed - it's a bit too easy to lose expansions to small groups of marines/marauders, especially late game where upgraded infantry demolishes zerg buildings in seconds; a possible solution would be to have buildings (hatches/spines, maybe spores?) scale with carapace, and possibly ranged upgrades. The biggest worry I have, would obviously having it effect zvz, or zvp negatively, but maybe there's a way of circumventing that?
Thank you. I don't see how people can defend Terran now. Look at the percentages. 65%+? That's utterly broken. I'm disgusted with everyone who is defending TvZ as balanced right now on this thread.
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For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS:
Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser".
So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won?
If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea.
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On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". Show nested quote +So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea.
that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game.
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On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game.
Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view.
That post of yours is pure vitriol.
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On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol.
The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success.
This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine.
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On July 28 2013 10:47 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 03:26 BoReDWiTHLiFe wrote:
Also, this is very rich coming from the Zerg player with a Z bias wearing a Terran icon. 1) Terran icon is the starting default icon 2) I quit playing SC2 long time ago. I just spectate now. 3) When I did play SC2, I was a diamond Terran. You're wrong in 3 ways, good job.
I used this as an example of how silly it is for you to presume someone's race by how they post like you did here:
On July 27 2013 08:52 GhostOwl wrote:
Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone
Good job confirming my statement. Also would you stop being so aggressive in your posts? You make it seem like every person with a different opinion then yours is stupid, blind and plays Terran. Did your favorite Zerg player just lose to a Terran or something?
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On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine.
Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help?
I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player.
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On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine.
I never noticed that, but its so true. Only when foreign terrans when will the game be balanced, until then, all other races must be nerf. We will ignore the fact that Korean terrans are doing well, and only reference foreign zergs winning(protoss never wins)
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On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player.
I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim.
5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi.
2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group.
None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game.
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EPT
